Right click and view image to see it fully, and can someone explain why we have threads on tapering if this holds true? The only way I can see tapering being useful is if we can get it at 3/4th of the level of natural androgens that our body produces naturally. Thus actually making the body realize we have lower T levels than normal and start producing with lessened side effects of loss of muscle mass and gyno.
Err sry for image size… I’ll type it out or find a link.
One of the most fundamental beliefs among steroid users is that tapering, or the practice of slowly reducing their drug dosage when discontinuing a cycle, is an absolute necessity when wishing to preserve their newly gained muscle mass. It is rare to find an athlete who does not religiously dedicate (at least) three or four weeks to a tapering schedule after every serious cycle.
The belief is that the body will notice the lowering androgen level, and compensate by resuming the manufacture of testosterone. Unfortunately, you will see that this theory is, in fact, extremely flawed. This is because in order for the production of testosterone to be fully restored, the body will really need to recognize an androgen deficit, not just a drop in steroid dosage.
For example, since even one Dianabol tablet could provide the equivalent of a full day’s androgen supply for the average male, tapering for five, to four, to three, etc. will accomplish relatively nothing. In the three or four weeks the athlete will spend doing this, his body is still reading “androgen overload”, and will not attempt to restore the output of testosterone.
This will hold true for all anabolic steroids, not just the strong androgens. Anecdotal evidence suggests that even tapering with mild anabolics such as Primobolan or Anavar (normally thought of as mild in terms of testosterone suppression) is enough to prevent or delay a hormonal rebound.
If you read the test taper thread you would see that it recommends dropping a stasis period and then to down below the level at which suppression occurs (100mg/w) so that you are at what the body thinks is a normal level for 4 weeks and then you slowly drop below it to let the body gradually ramp up production to recover.
This excerpt didn’t happen to come from an Anthony Robert’s article did it? The theory can state what it wants; point is that tapering works for those that have tried it, me being one of those.
All logic and data point to the taper being worthless. When I first started reading, it made sense that if you had any outside test floating around in your body, natural production would still be shut down.
But I can promise you, that it works very well for me. I have tried the standard PCT protocols, and I crashed. Hard.
The taper has worked well for both keeping gains, and keeping a good mental state. I couldn’t tell you why, it just does.
I was very skeptical of the taper when I first tried it. It worked very well for myself and I had possibly the best transition to natural training out of any cycle. I know use the taper for all my cycles.
Although on paper it does not look like it would be very effective I will always take my personal experiences in real life over my scientific understanding.
[quote]testanabol wrote:
works every time for me too.
Plus, why would one want to subject themselves to clomid when its not neccesary.
I hate the fucking stuff[/quote]
Bingo. If a drug which I know can make me feel like god can get the job done anywhere near as well as a drug that makes me feel like shit… it’s not a very hard decision, lol.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
It becomes more about loyalty than it does any amount of evidence - either anecdotal, which is the entire basis of the taper - or real.[/quote]
How is anecdotal evidence not real? Assuming it isn’t coming from douchebags.
To all who said they could not see a logic or scientific backing for the taper, Don’t take this personally, but keep in mind that you have no medical or scientific background to draw from, and it really helps to have a good understanding in this area to fully appreciate the way the body works.
Those of us who are proffessionals and have this background have no problem with understanding the fundementals behind the waiting period (that bush has somehow named ‘stasis’) and the taper.
This is much like if I were to go on a mechanics performance tuning board or something, and try to comprehend the intricate workings of ignition timing e.t.c. And then try and tell someone who actually was a mechanic that his explaination of things wasn’t right.
Rainjack informs us that the major ‘gurus’ in the steroid field don’t agree with me on the test taper, but keep in mind that many of these names forementioned have no pertinent University education to back up their claims to being steroid gurus.
For example:
Just because someone knows how to make a good fina brew, dosn’t mean you should be trusting his medical understanding of things, and certainly don’t listen to someone who graduated with an Arts degree for your advice on post cycle therapy, as you’ll end up with a well written piece of fiction. It doesn’t matter how many studies you read and compile, if you are not educated in the field you won’t be able to correctly interpret all the data you gather.
Once again I will add that the origional idea of the test taper came from Cy Wilson (who has a degree in pharmacy) probably the most knowledgable guy I know when it comes to Bodybuilding supplements and pharmacology.
So finally to put all the critisms to rest someone should probably start a thread where we can provide links to all the success stories of members who have used the test taper over the last 2 years.
Because I am so busy at work now and training for competition I don’t get on here as much as I used to, but i’ll always be lurking and always happy to answer questions when people pm.
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
Rainjack informs us that the major ‘gurus’ in the steroid field don’t agree with me on the test taper, but keep in mind that many of these names forementioned have no pertinent University education to back up their claims to being steroid gurus.
[/quote]
Not to be disrespectful - but you are a nurse. You change bed pans, and give old ladies shots in the ass. Don’t start going all hooker on us and inflate what you are to make your story sound better.
Your taper is anecdotal at best absent of any real proof.
Psrdon me if I trust actual published authors - not counting hooker - over the word of a nurse/boy model/NPC competitor.
You are as insulting as your are full of yourself. And you have yet to prove dick to anyone asking for said proof. All you have is “try it it works”.
I’m not getting into this pissing contest with you. I stated what I think - and until you do something besides run everyone down that disagrees with you - you will still be wrong to me, and most all of the people that mean a damn thing in this community.
There are no scientific studies regarding tapering androgen dosing and recovering endogenous production. That being said, an understanding of basic physiological principles would lead any prudent individual to agree that the principles underlying the stasis/taper method are sound. Does it actually work that way? Nobody can say unless you methodically research the issue and provide actual data.
Based on the above, there is no definitive YES or NO about it’s effectiveness, so everyone should just drop it. An explanation of the principles behind the idea and an “it worked or it didn’t” anecdotal report is sufficient, after which other people can make up their own mind. Arguing over something that can’t go one way or the other is like debating the existence of God (and please, nobody start in with that one).
I have used the cold-turkey method and the taper method, once each (I currently use HRT so have no need for any PCT). While the taper prolonged the recovery, it was much smoother. Aside from actual muscle retention, my strength gains were completely maintained and actually increased on selected lifts, I was mentally much more stable (the most important aspect for me), and my sexual function was slightly diminished but never significantly impaired.
Some people don’t do so well with the taper, and would be much better with cold turkey. If that’s you, more power to you, but that doesn’t mean everyone is just like you.
Same for the taper method.
Some people just don’t have the resources or ability to continue for 12 extra weeks post-cycle to do the taper, or they just don’t feel like doing it. It can essentially double the cycle length (as far as injections go). That is a personal (and hopefully informed) decision, so don’t get on people’s cases if they decided not to do it.
Rainjack has a way of stating some very relevant points, but then being a dick in the process. It’s sort of a love/hate relationship.
The taper is basically what it was when i stated it in the test taper thread.
And the research I provided at the time was very supportive of all my findings. In fact the majority of it was gathered by Cy Willson himself and personally handed over to me.
As for Rainjack: I’m an ER NURSE. We save peoples lives. If you ever have to come into a resus room you better hope we know more than just to change Bed pans and give old ladies shots.
Not only do I have a Bachelor of Science degree, but we continually are getting more education.
My plans in the next five years include taking an ICU course, and completing my Masters practitioner - with which I could practice as a family practitioner in some States Billing almost 75% of what an MD would make.
So please don’t knock my proffession - we do know much more than how to change bedpans.
Not to be disrespectful - but you are a nurse. You change bed pans, and give old ladies shots in the ass. Don’t start going all hooker on us and inflate what you are to make your story sound better.
Your taper is anecdotal at best absent of any real proof.
Psrdon me if I trust actual published authors - not counting hooker - over the word of a nurse/boy model/NPC competitor.
You are as insulting as your are full of yourself. And you have yet to prove dick to anyone asking for said proof. All you have is “try it it works”.
I’m not getting into this pissing contest with you. I stated what I think - and until you do something besides run everyone down that disagrees with you - you will still be wrong to me, and most all of the people that mean a damn thing in this community.
Rainjack, what the fuck man? You can’t put some statement like ‘not to be disrespectful’ at the beginning at an insulting and disrespectful statement and actually think or believe that means what you are saying is not disrespectful. I don’t care whether or not people use Nolva and or Chlomid, or do a taper. Picking at hooker/Anthony Roberts is all good and fine, but someone like prisoner or BBB have put hours upon hours into formal educations surrounding this specific type stuff. FOr you to try and disregard and write off someone because they ‘change bed pans and give old ladies shots’ is some of the most sophomoric and transparent bullshit someone can use. Do yourself and the forum a favor and either figure out a better way to convey your argument or shut the fuck up.
