Taper vs Pct

mounten · September 1, 2007, 4:20pm

Hey,
I’m currently into my 10th week of a Test C/Decca cycle,and love it to death,awesome strengh gains,my libido
is that of a 18 year old,and my overall since of well being is awesome,I have actually lost 10lbs on my cycle do to diet
but I look bigger and ripped more than I ever have,most of the weight came off my mid section,so my overall appearance looks great,

  I have nolva/clomid for Pct,but also have more Test for possible taper,how does the taper method work?I'm doing 500mg testc/week current 300mg decca/week,12weeks decca 14weeks testc, so taper or Pct?

 Also I remember reading about the "blast and cruise" Cycle,Is that doing smaller amounts of Test on a year round basis,I can't remember,can a guy run 250mgtest/week in between cycles or is that a bad idea?   mounten

2thepain · September 1, 2007, 4:36pm

Understand that 250mg/week of test will keep you shutdown. I’m unsure of your age,stats,goals etc. but I would not recommend staying on year round to anyone. If you have extra test I would use the test taper. I have done many cycles with conventional PCT and used the test taper for my last cycle.

The taper IMO was much better in terms of gains kept and overall mood/libido. There is a thread started by Prisoner#22 that outlines a typical test taper.

Prisoner · September 1, 2007, 6:09pm

here is the protocol:

one week following last injection on cycle:

100mg of test E per week (can be split into two doses if you like)

do this for 6 weeks.

If on femara or Arimidex taper off them during this time frame. I personally taper off nolva and clomid as well, as the goal is to reach homeostasis naturally with no other drugs in your body besides testosterone (which your body cannot distinguish from it’s own)

Following the waiting period it is time to wean yourself off test…

6 week taper. gradually reducing from your 100mg waiting dose to nothing:

eg.

80mg, 60mg, 40mg, 50mg, 30mg, 20mg

by the end you should be fine. You should have recovered all testicular size, e.t.c. and if you choose to go back on cycle at that point it is perfectly fine as I do - but then again I compete, and if your not growing in the offseason one of your competitors for sure will be!

Important also to slow your workouts down during the waiting period and taper. By week 3 of the waiting perid to week 4 of the taper - keep workouts at maintainance. Low volume, low intensity, and low frequency. You are only trying to keep muscle not build it.

Since you don’t have the capacity (Chemically) to repair a lot of your supraphysiological gains during this time it is probably best to lay off, as muscle broken down at this point may not be repaired, and you can loose size more quickly by continuing to train as if you are on.

Personally I am training 3 times per week right now, and do other activities such as biking and golfing instead with the rest of my time.

Also in the 3 months off try to heal up any aches and pains you might have had, so that when you hit your next cycle you are primed and ready to role. That may mean a trip or two to therapy - especially if you were on deca :(.

LillGuy001 · September 2, 2007, 8:19pm

Just something to throw out there. If you lost 10 lbs off of 500 mg wk test and 300 mg wk of deca then you likley should of just went on a proper diet instead of wasting your money on steroids at all.

However best of luck with the taper.

mzagar · September 2, 2007, 9:33pm

Tapering doesn’t seem to be a good idea. I quote below from “Anabolics 2006” by Dr. William Llewellyn:

“…in order for the production of testosterone to be fully restored, the body will really need to recognize an androgen deficit, not just a drop in steroid dosage. For example, since even one Dianabol table could provide the equivalent of a full day’s androgen supply for the average male, tapering from five, to four, to three, etc will accomplish relatively nothing. In the three or four weeks the athlete will spend doing this, his body is still reading ‘androgen overload’, and will not attempt to restore the output of testosterone.”

He goes on to conclude that tapering is useless. Instead, pay close attention to ancillary drug use (HCG, Nolvadex) during PCT.

Hope this helps.

Prisoner · September 3, 2007, 12:37am

[quote]meepmister wrote:
Tapering doesn’t seem to be a good idea. I quote below from “Anabolics 2006” by Dr. William Llewellyn:

“…in order for the production of testosterone to be fully restored, the body will really need to recognize an androgen deficit, not just a drop in steroid dosage. For example, since even one Dianabol table could provide the equivalent of a full day’s androgen supply for the average male, tapering from five, to four, to three, etc will accomplish relatively nothing. In the three or four weeks the athlete will spend doing this, his body is still reading ‘androgen overload’, and will not attempt to restore the output of testosterone.”

He goes on to conclude that tapering is useless. Instead, pay close attention to ancillary drug use (HCG, Nolvadex) during PCT.

Hope this helps.

[/quote]

I suggest you do a search for my threads such as the Prisoner#22 test tapering thread, where in fact I disputed all this, and in fact many members here have tried my protocol with great success since, and would never go back to using just a serm or hcg.

Do this before you continue to spread your lies. Or sorry, your ignorance.

Petedacook · September 3, 2007, 2:33pm

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
I suggest you do a search for my threads such as the Prisoner#22 test tapering thread, where in fact I disputed all this, and in fact many members here have tried my protocol with great success since, and would never go back to using just a serm or hcg.

Do this before you continue to spread your lies. Or sorry, your ignorance.[/quote]

Hey P-22,

I have been on here a while, but for some reason just recently came across your threads and test taper style of PCT. I did some searching and found a few people that have tried your method and gave positive feedback.

I am currently doing the Nolv/HCG Aromasin PCT and it sucks. I stopped the HCG and aromasin and put in clomid with the nolv. and it still sucks.

Anyhow, I am interested to know how many people have tried your test taper and their feedback on it. I was thinking of creating a post asking for people who have tried it to speak up and be heard. I was wondering if you would be OK with such a post or if it would offend you.

My initial fear of your test taper is that it seems on a 12 week cycle I would be shut down totally for at least 18 weeks until I went below 100MG of test. IS that correct?

ubl0 · September 3, 2007, 3:53pm

wait a minute, llewellyn is a doctor now?

just because someone collects together info on steroids and throws it together into a nice binding does not make them an expert. llewellyn has been a master self promoter for quite a while, earning himself the disdain of many in the steroid community.

as a sidenote, he does push a bullshit AA supp that claims gains on the order of good diet and training while recommending one to stop taking fish oil.

anyway, back to P22’s taper. it works, that is the long and short of it. quite frankly all the justification for other PCT protocols has been pretty poor considering the studies being used to support them don’t always necessarily apply (they are often a very big stretch - anthony roberts is one of the most guilty of this, reflecting his lack of formal training in a related field).

sure if you have other idiots repeating it, it will seems as if that is the accepted theory, but remember that most of the theories were simply built on the practices of those with far less info and mostly wild speculation (hey this is arnold cycle and workout).

one thing that strikes me as odd is the naysayers miss the fact that T-Nation’s own Cy Wilson consulted on the matter and i don’t recall bill roberts shooting it down. that alone speaks volumes.

rainjack · September 3, 2007, 4:10pm

[quote]ubl0 wrote:
wait a minute, llewellyn is a doctor now?

just because someone collects together info on steroids and throws it together into a nice binding does not make them an expert. llewellyn has been a master self promoter for quite a while, earning himself the disdain of many in the steroid community.

as a sidenote, he does push a bullshit AA supp that claims gains on the order of good diet and training while recommending one to stop taking fish oil.

anyway, back to P22’s taper. it works, that is the long and short of it. quite frankly all the justification for other PCT protocols has been pretty poor considering the studies being used to support them don’t always necessarily apply (they are often a very big stretch - anthony roberts is one of the most guilty of this, reflecting his lack of formal training in a related field).

sure if you have other idiots repeating it, it will seems as if that is the accepted theory, but remember that most of the theories were simply built on the practices of those with far less info and mostly wild speculation (hey this is arnold cycle and workout).

one thing that strikes me as odd is the naysayers miss the fact that T-Nation’s own Cy Wilson consulted on the matter and i don’t recall bill roberts shooting it down. that alone speaks volumes.[/quote]

Llewellyn is not a doctor, but he is the go to guy when one is in need of steroid information.

He has been in the game much longer than any other major figures in the community.

Disparaging him to make P-22 look taller, or more informed is not fair to Llewellyn. I’m pretty sure he’s never heard of P-22.

All the prisoner has is his own ideas, and some anecdotal evidence. To even come close to equating his level of knowledge to Llewellyn is a joke.

name the sites that have a problem with Bill, and I will show you a site that is pimping Hooker’s crap. No one with a functioning brain stem can honestly say P-22 is worthy of carrying Bill’s jock strap.

The funny thing is, Llewellyn doesn’t even care enough to give a shit about the drama that is the steroid community.

KSman · September 3, 2007, 4:17pm

[quote]meepmister wrote:
Tapering doesn’t seem to be a good idea. I quote below from “Anabolics 2006” by Dr. William Llewellyn:

"…in order for the production of testosterone to be fully restored, the body will really need to recognize an androgen deficit, not just a drop in steroid dosage. For example, since even one Dianabol table could provide the equivalent of a full day’s androgen supply for the average male, tapering from five, to four, to three, etc will accomplish relatively nothing.

In the three or four weeks the athlete will spend doing this, his body is still reading ‘androgen overload’, and will not attempt to restore the output of testosterone."

He goes on to conclude that tapering is useless. Instead, pay close attention to ancillary drug use (HCG, Nolvadex) during PCT.

[/quote]

Note that P22 states to first transition from what gear you were one to 100mg/wk of test cyp or eth, then taper that down. That addresses the points that you made above. As one tapers down the test esters, the body will probably start to wake up the HPTA as T drops through the 80-60 mg range. If there are some aspects of the test taper method that might be debated, this point is not.

TheBeat · September 3, 2007, 4:52pm

[quote]meepmister wrote:
Tapering doesn’t seem to be a good idea. I quote below from “Anabolics 2006” by Dr. William Llewellyn:

"…in order for the production of testosterone to be fully restored, the body will really need to recognize an androgen deficit, not just a drop in steroid dosage. For example, since even one Dianabol table could provide the equivalent of a full day’s androgen supply for the average male, tapering from five, to four, to three, etc will accomplish relatively nothing.

In the three or four weeks the athlete will spend doing this, his body is still reading ‘androgen overload’, and will not attempt to restore the output of testosterone."

He goes on to conclude that tapering is useless. Instead, pay close attention to ancillary drug use (HCG, Nolvadex) during PCT.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]
Llewellyn might have a book release every-year that says 95% of the same shit as the year before and he might know more than most of us about particular things or maybe for some everything, but he by no means is the end all in discussion as so many try to use.

I think that Prisoner’s posts on tapering dispute the above quote from Llewellyn quite well and show a greater picture of the whole thing. Also think Testosterone taper and not steroid taper, that show open up some doors of thought.

Too many people get hung up on one truth and assume that it pertains to everything and is not a factor of the cause itself. There is a guy on this board that is smart and comes across to many very well, but he has issues with SERM’s and cannot put a taper theory and serm theory together without coming to a new understanding, this is true for many.

One could also look at Serm’s for recovery almost as a taper, as the serm is stimulating the production of testosterone and one is reliant on them to keep/get their levels up, while a test taper allow the exogenous levels to slowly drop while the endogenous levels to slowly raise with the deficient that occurs. I’m definately rambling and P-22 says it best.

rainjack · September 3, 2007, 5:30pm

I just think it is very tellinng about the character of certain people on this site that they need to run down the experts to make their own theories more viable.

I could give a shit about which is better. Both have their good points and their bad points.

But running down Llewellyn just because he disagrees with you, or running down those that subscribe to the time tested PCT option makes the P-22 cheerleaders look petty.

So all Llewellyn does is write a book every year. What have you done for the community that can even come close to what he has given?

Taper takes no brains. All you need to know is the half life of estered gear. I mean it’s not like anyone is re-inventing the wheel here.

Prisoner · September 3, 2007, 11:29pm

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I just think it is very tellinng about the character of certain people on this site that they need to run down the experts to make their own theories more viable.

I could give a shit about which is better. Both have their good points and their bad points.

But running down Llewellyn just because he disagrees with you, or running down those that subscribe to the time tested PCT option makes the P-22 cheerleaders look petty.

So all Llewellyn does is write a book every year. What have you done for the community that can even come close to what he has given?

Taper takes no brains. All you need to know is the half life of estered gear. I mean it’s not like anyone is re-inventing the wheel here.

[/quote]

Hi rainjack. Let’s get things straight here. Llewellyn whose work I have not paid much attention too since I saw a work where he was advising such high doses of hcg in the 3000 iu range! I could care less about him or those other ‘so called gurus’ out there. They are frequently running each other’s work down themselves, so no need for me to do so.

I simply used certain protocols and found that they did not work, so, after reading some theories by Cy Willson (someone btw who has an intellect that is a level above all these other so called experts) I came to an understanding in regards to his test taper using androgel.

Since androgel is expensive and we all don’t have access to that I worked out a protocol using testosterone depot.

Most of the research was already done for me by Cy Willson. He emailed me most of everything i needed. (but prefered not to get involved in the petty forum discussions with you know who).

I simply took his work and using my own knowlege and experience put together a protocol that works.

Now whether you use a serm or not during the taper I could care less, as I have gotten it to work without one, and have also gotten it to work while using low dose masteron. However the skeleton of the test taper waiting period and the taper is my own developement, and it works. Everyone who has tried it (and most who have have used other protocols in the past) agree that it does everything advertised - it allows you to come off cycle without crashing, losing libido, acne flair ups, mood swings depression e.t.c, helps maintain a decent amount of size, and in the end offers a smooth transition back to recovery of natural testicular function.

This is something that the other protocols have never been able to consistently offer.

Now the fact that I found a protocol that works and am willing to share it with all free of charge, and don’t need to write a book… well some people are thanking me, but others who have writen books, or are ‘marks’ for those who have continue with this campaign to disprove me.

It’s been almost two years now. Nobody has been able to disprove my theories, and more and more people who are trying this approach and realising how successfull it is.

Quit frankly I am tired of posting on here to help people get the protocol correct and still getting attacked once in a while on here due to the test taper theory.

Bottom line is people: give it up! the test taper works, instead of attacking, try it for yourself because I guarentee you will never go back to using hcg and serm protocols again.

rainjack · September 3, 2007, 11:58pm

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
It’s been almost two years now. Nobody has been able to disprove my theories, and more and more people who are trying this approach and realising how successfull it is.[/quote]

You pride yourself as a man of science - yet your proof of success is nothing more than anecdotal evidence, and a challenge to the naysayers to prove you wrong.

Where in the fuck did you learn about the scientific process?

My problem with you is not your theory - but your attitude. You bite everyone’s head off that migh have a differing view than you. If you are truly such a man of science as you like to portray yourself - why dont you act like it?

I don’t doubt that it does work - to a point, But you are making blanket statements and blanket assumptions that are just too broad to be supported.

Hell - I could tell everyone to wait 4-6 weeks after their last injection of Test E, see what your blood levels look like, and then use a SERM if you still need a bump. And in doing that, I will achieve the exact same results as you do with the taper. it’s called a half-life.

But like I said - I don’t have a problem with you and your taper ideas. I just have a problem when you act like you have over the past couple of days - which is why I told you to get off the damn tren if you are going to post controversial shit.

juice20jd · September 4, 2007, 12:07am

Anthony roberts was some big thing a while back, and some even still follow his dogma, but most in the know realize he is bullshit…so reputation, perceived contribution, and name power means fuck all in reality. I only care about what works in the real world. Who cares if you have a well respected name or have been around and are knowledgeable. Llewellyn puts out great stuff. P-22’s stuff is great too. the end.

Standard PCT most definitely still has it’s place. But for long term cycles of 16 weeks or more, it is highly inferior to a taper. That is just personal opinion from experience. The experience part being the key. Trying it out and comparing is the only way you truly know.

And no one…absolutely no one at all is reinventing the wheel anywhere in the AAS “community”…simply because this is all pseudo science…every last little bit of it.

juice20jd · September 4, 2007, 12:15am

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:

Hell - I could tell everyone to wait 4-6 weeks after their last injection of Test E, see what your blood levels look like, and then use a SERM if you still need a bump. And in doing that, I will achieve the exact same results as you do with the taper. it’s called a half-life.

[/quote]

RJ…that is incorrect, and i would expect someone like yourself to know that. relying on the half life alone simply does not provide a gradual enough transition. you do see that right? its not “the same”.

anyways. i personally feel for shorter cycles that standard PCT is fine, but if you are going to be on 16, 20, 24 weeks or more…better look into the taper. it does work.

rainjack · September 4, 2007, 1:07am

[quote]juice20jd wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:

Hell - I could tell everyone to wait 4-6 weeks after their last injection of Test E, see what your blood levels look like, and then use a SERM if you still need a bump. And in doing that, I will achieve the exact same results as you do with the taper. it’s called a half-life.

RJ…that is incorrect, and i would expect someone like yourself to know that. relying on the half life alone simply does not provide a gradual enough transition. you do see that right? its not “the same”.

anyways. i personally feel for shorter cycles that standard PCT is fine, but if you are going to be on 16, 20, 24 weeks or more…better look into the taper. it does work.
[/quote]

It’s the same theory. Either you are shut down, or you are not.

If I have a cumulative exogenous test level in my body of say 1.5 grams (assuming I am on test e), it will take about 6-8 weeks to get to the magical 50mg level. No exogenous test. No prolonging natural recovery.

Half life is more gradual than being on exogenous testosterone. The only problem is knowing exactly what the half life is for you - which is the same problem with the taper: Unless you know exactly what is going on in your body (i.e constant blood work) it is a crap shoot at best.

There are many people out there that recover just fine with no pct - only the natural taper of the ester. Was it a theory born out of thinking real hard? No - it was born out of ignorance.

But you know as well as I do that there are many people that use neither a taper, nor PCT, and recover just fine.

I am not knocking the taper. If it works for you - more power to you. As much as everyone wants this to be a science - it isn’t, and acting like it is is just silly. All you have are ideas. All I have are ideas.

Even P-22 addressed this in Bushy’s thread. There is just no way to do a definitive study in humans as the climate sits today.

SwD · September 4, 2007, 2:12am

While the taper idea certainly isnt new, P22’s version certainly has a distinct twist to it that makes it more than “Taper takes no brains”, even though it is so simple.

I have yet to try it, I will this October, and in a weird way, I am looking forward to it. If it’s good as all the feeback I’ve read, I’ll be thrilled and certainly wont mind doing the long cycles - I was more drawn to 2 weekers or no gear at all.

I do understand why he’s pissed off. He came out with the test taper idea to help others, for FREE, and since then he gets harassed with tons of questions (some by me) and constant bashing. I dont get who besides dealers could get pissed with his idea. Not agreeing is one thing, but come on, give the dude a break!

Prisoner · September 4, 2007, 3:07am

[quote]rainjack wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote: