A while back Anthony Roberts wrote a very interesting article on PCT. For those of you who haven’t read the article, the suggested PCT is:
20mg/day Nolvadex for 6 weeks
20mg/day Aromasin for 4 weeks
500iu/day HCG for 3 weeks
1000iu/day Vitamin E for 3 weeks
I’m curious as to if anyone here has tried this regimen. I’m not a biochemist, but given the information in the article it sounds like it makes a lot of a lot of sense. I’d like to hear what you guys think about it…
Well,
Is the entire PCT 6 weeks long?
How suppressive was the cycle?.. what drugs?..and how long were they taken?
google it: “anthony roberts PCT”. Its the first one.
Very nice read.
-Halflife
Guys, check out the “Keeping Gains Post” as there is much discussion regaring PCT strategies in the body of the thread.
[quote]Viking69 wrote:
Well,
Is the entire PCT 6 weeks long?
How suppressive was the cycle?.. what drugs?..and how long were they taken?[/quote]
Viking,
It was just a general outline for pct, and why someone should want to take these specific drugs… it wasn’t specific to any amount of aas…
Well with this protocol recovery wouldn’t even begin to take place untill after the hcg was finished. 500 iu every day is a lot of hcg and very detrimental to recovery of the axis from my experience. If you don’t think 3500 iu of hcg per week is going to cause dependance, especially when taken for 3 weeks time, then you need give your head a shake.
There is no need for the nolvadex providing aromasin or some other AI was taken throughout the cycle. This is ideal. Same with post cycle taking nolvadex for an additional 6 weeks post cycle is not my idea of recovery, as the goal is to return your body to homeostasis - the body’s natural balance of hormones. This absolutely cannot be achieved if you are continuing to use nolva, especially for up to six weeks post cycle. There will be a rebound effect when you finally do go off it, and withdrawal symptoms.
Basically its complicated, too much junk being thrown in the body, and we have to take into account that every drug has side effects, not just steroids.
Prisoner,
My understanding of what you like for PCT is an AI with test at hrt doses, is that correct? What are your typical doses, and for how long (I think I saw somewhere 50mg/week)?
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Well with this protocol recovery wouldn’t even begin to take place untill after the hcg was finished. 500 iu every day is a lot of hcg and very detrimental to recovery of the axis from my experience. If you don’t think 3500 iu of hcg per week is going to cause dependance, especially when taken for 3 weeks time, then you need give your head a shake.
There is no need for the nolvadex providing aromasin or some other AI was taken throughout the cycle. This is ideal. Same with post cycle taking nolvadex for an additional 6 weeks post cycle is not my idea of recovery, as the goal is to return your body to homeostasis - the body’s natural balance of hormones. This absolutely cannot be achieved if you are continuing to use nolva, especially for up to six weeks post cycle. There will be a rebound effect when you finally do go off it, and withdrawal symptoms.
Basically its complicated, too much junk being thrown in the body, and we have to take into account that every drug has side effects, not just steroids.
[/quote]
I’ve been thinking a bit, and your views differ quite a bit from Anthony & you each do not belive in each other’s PCT.
It would be very interesting for a debate article/roundtable (if you have time) for PCT methods between you and Anthony, and even Cy (since you say that you got this method from Cy).
I agree with Nomancer…
PCT confuses the hell out of me!
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Well with this protocol recovery wouldn’t even begin to take place untill after the hcg was finished. 500 iu every day is a lot of hcg and very detrimental to recovery of the axis from my experience. If you don’t think 3500 iu of hcg per week is going to cause dependance, especially when taken for 3 weeks time, then you need give your head a shake.
[/quote]
The Nolvadex prevents the HCG from being detrimental to recovery. The reasoning is covered in the article.
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
There is no need for the nolvadex providing aromasin or some other AI was taken throughout the cycle.
[/quote]
Some “other AI”? Nolvadex isn’t an AI, in the first place…and what does an AI being taken throughout the cycle have to do with post cycle estrogen?
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Basically its complicated, too much junk being thrown in the body, and we have to take into account that every drug has side effects, not just steroids.
[/quote]
I did…it’s all been factored in.
The thing is, that it works. I mean…people talk about why it won’t work and why it’s not great, etc…but I’ve had people use it and they love my way more than any other PCT they’ve ever used. They typically keep a lot of their strength and feel great.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
The thing is, that it works. I mean…people talk about why it won’t work and why it’s not great, etc…but I’ve had people use it and they love my way more than any other PCT they’ve ever used. They typically keep a lot of their strength and feel great.
[/quote]
Heres where I’m confused. I’m sure both PCTs work, otherwise nobody would use them, and nobody would promote them.
Anthony, your PCT does have extra drugs, some of which have side effects. If these side effects are so low in their effect, then great. But if there is effects, this is where the Test Taper is good.
In the end, the real question is what works better. I mean better in terms of:
Also, mabey one PCT works better for some AASes and the other PCT for others…
Any one ending a cycle soon? Maybe we should get 2 volunteers to run both methods? Any takers??
[quote]Nomancer wrote:
Heres where I’m confused. I’m sure both PCTs work, otherwise nobody would use them, and nobody would promote them.
Anthony, your PCT does have extra drugs, some of which have side effects. If these side effects are so low in their effect, then great. But if there is effects, this is where the Test Taper is good.
In the end, the real question is what works better. I mean better in terms of:
[/quote]
Test tapering has been totally abandoned by Duchaine, Llewellyn, and myself…in short, basically everyeon who has written a book on steroids thinks tapering is horseshit.
My pct protocol works for Keeping gains, and has no more side effects than other protocols.
Tapering is a horrible idea, for various reasons outlined my my book as well as Llewellyn’s…which are currently the two best selling books on steroids.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Nomancer wrote:
Heres where I’m confused. I’m sure both PCTs work, otherwise nobody would use them, and nobody would promote them.
Anthony, your PCT does have extra drugs, some of which have side effects. If these side effects are so low in their effect, then great. But if there is effects, this is where the Test Taper is good.
In the end, the real question is what works better. I mean better in terms of:
Test tapering has been totally abandoned by Duchaine, Llewellyn, and myself…in short, basically everyeon who has written a book on steroids thinks tapering is horseshit.
My pct protocol works for Keeping gains, and has no more side effects than other protocols.
Tapering is a horrible idea, for various reasons outlined my my book as well as Llewellyn’s…which are currently the two best selling books on steroids.[/quote]
Anthony, in all due repect, I think you are a smart guy, but…
for various reasons eh? but we’ll have to send you cash to find them out I bet?
Using novadex to retain gains? It isn’t as secret that nolva actually retards gains!,
anyways…
Anyone can write a book it doesn’t make them an expert. And using the phrase loosely ‘everyone’ doesn’t explain why your protocol works. As far a Llewellyn and yourself, (I’m not even going to mention duchaine as everyone knows he was an idiot) You two are great entrepreneurs I will admit, but that doesn’t make you two the authority on this subject, as I can easilly write a book myself, but I have better things to do than waste my time.
The bottom line is Underground steroid publications like your two, and the so called ‘bible’ are just a bunch of rehashed here-say, the same stuff that has been circulating around the gyms, and around these boards for years. They are definitely not peer-reviewed, and anyone can find quotes from studies to use to back their arguments.
Since most people who purchase these books have no clue about how scientific studies are actually designed, and what the difference between a ‘good’ study and a ‘poor’ study is; and how to interpret results. You guys can really lay on the bull sh!t as much as you like, and no one will protest.
For example, how many times have we seen ‘scientific studies’ used to promote some new revolutionary supplement that is here today and gone tommorrow?
So now with my experience I have gained over the years trying your protocols and swale’s e.t.c. coupled with the Background I have in physiology, and pharmacology which gives me a good understanding of drugs and the human body, along with the experience of working along side physicians, and pharmacy in facilitating optimal patient care, I can sit here and type into my keyboard that your protocol is complete B.S!
Everybody in the medical field knows that when dealing with receptor-mediated drugs, on cessation of medical therapy, you must taper, to avoid withdrawal symptoms. For many drugs, if you don’t taper it can be deadly. One example is corticosteroids. There are many more.
However, you ‘so called’ experts go against conventional medical wisdom, saying it is o.k. to quit the long-term hormone therapy you have been on cold-turkey, and then throw in a buch of other drugs that are receptor mediated as well, and happen to have their own set of side effects, and withdrawal symptoms themselves.
But then again you are writers of back-water underground publications, surely you know better than conventional medicine which has withstood the test of time, research and legal proceedings?
As for tapering, Let me be clear, Tapering will ONLY work if you use testosterone. It will not work if you just use whatever gear that was being used for your cycle. That is what duchane and others were doing back in the old days.
I suggest you re-think this and retry this method, as I think you have confused tapering with testosterone down to hrt and then to zero, with general tapering of a cycle, which is completely different.
If you havn’t tried the exact method I have described, I suggest you keep an open mind.
I have on the other hand tried your method, and bluntly, it sucks.
Everything is wonderfull untill you quit the hcg, and then the hurt begins, and you end up going back on cycle just to get away from feeling like an old man.
After my last cycle when I tapered with testosterone, I felt so good in the end, I actually contemplated never using steroids again. But I had promised myself two more years of competing so I went back on the gear.
So in conclusion it’s quit clear your not going to admit that this method works because then your book wouldn’t be worth the paper it was written on right?
so you go against conventional medicine, and you obviously have an agenda - i.e. you need to make money off your book, so personally I don’t see much weight in your opinion at all, and frankly after I followed the protocols that you champion, and it left me feeling like an old man, I am more than happy to disclaim your book with glee.
Yours truly, P-22
I find it odd that you tried my method, considering the fact that it’s only been around for 2 months, and it’s a 6 week long protocol. So…according to you, you read it, and coincidentally, you were ending a cycle 2 weeks later, and even though you knew it would suck, you tried it.
Searching through your posts, it’s odd that you never mention a cycle ending around the time that you claim it did…in order to try my (2 month old) protocol.
Post your bloodwork, with dates - or quite frankly, I call bullshit.
And you never made any mention of trying it before now…
And now, since it came up- and it’s been stated (by me) that the only books out on the market on steroids both claim (with references) that tapering is outdated- you just happen to have tried my method, and it sucks.
SO…only now, when I say that myself and other established authors all concur that tapering is garbage…it comes out that you’ve tried my PCT, huh?
Very suspect.
Post your bloodtests showing that my PCT didn’t restore you to baseline (i.e. that it “sucks”).
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
so you go against conventional medicine, and you obviously have an agenda - i.e. you need to make money off your book, so personally I don’t see much weight in your opinion at all, and frankly after I followed the protocols that you champion, and it left me feeling like an old man, I am more than happy to disclaim your book with glee.
Yours truly, P-22
[/quote]
What about Eric Cressey’s opinion? He said my book is good…
Or all the other people on this site who have said that my book is good?
Dr.Ryan looked at my work and said that it’s very strong, as has Cressey, Robertson, and basically ALL of the authors here on this site, as well as EVERY PERSON WHO HAS BOUGHT IT.
They don’t make money off my book…
I suppose they are all either stupid or lying?
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
I find it odd that you tried my method, considering the fact that it’s only been around for 2 months, and it’s a 6 week long protocol. So…according to you, you read it, and coincidentally, you were ending a cycle 2 weeks later, and even though you knew it would suck, you tried it.
Searching through your posts, it’s odd that you never mention a cycle ending around the time that you claim it did…in order to try my (2 month old) protocol.
Post your bloodwork, with dates - or quite frankly, I call bullshit.
And you never made any mention of trying it before now…
And now, since it came up- and it’s been stated (by me) that the only books out on the market on steroids both claim (with references) that tapering is outdated- you just happen to have tried my method, and it sucks.
SO…only now, when I say that myself and other established authors all concur that tapering is garbage…it comes out that you’ve tried my PCT, huh?
Very suspect.
Post your bloodtests showing that my PCT didn’t restore you to baseline (i.e. that it “sucks”).
[/quote]
Actually I did post my blood work about a year and almost a half ago on here, and no I didn’t do your exact protocol, but close enough to it to know that yours wouldn’t have been any different.
What I did do was 1 month of test prop, to ensure all other compounds had cleared out of the body, along with femara. I had done a weekly hcg protocol throughout the cycle as well. At the end I did 3 weeks of hcg, starting at 500 iu per day, only difference is I tapered down the hcg, as libido was uneffected by doing so (and since the half life of hcg is so short, why would you want to use more than you need to?), and results were unchanged.
I tapered the hcg completely off, then stopped the femara, and instead did nolva at 20mg per day with clomid at 50 mg per day, for I believe 4 or 6 weeks (it was well over a year ago so I can’t be entirely sure)
Anyways about 1 week after finishing the hcg my libido tanked, and it never really noticebly recovered. I had stopped the cycle in August 2004 and had blook work in early October 2004 - about 6 or 8 week post cycle. The numbers that came back and I can’t remember the exact number but I have posted it in the past here, put my test in the range of ‘low normal’.
Anyways by november 2004 nothing had improved, and I decided to go on some hrt.
The problem obviously wasn’t a testicular problem, as I had no problem with sex drive while on the hcg, however after cessation of the hcg, the problems began.
Now since I had used the femara, nolva and clomid, that ruled out estrogen as being the culprit, so therefore the only real explaination was that my testicles were not responding to LH secretion from the pituatary.
Now I admit I didn’t have these levels checked, and in hind sight I should have, however I never touch hcg again, and this year I didn’t have any problems with recovery at all.
Now I now you like to drop names, and I am sure there is a lot of good information in your book, however, I disagree with any method of pct that utilizes hcg. And I don’t prefer the use of SERMS either as they tend to have side effets of their own to contend with.
As for other names that you drop on ths site, they are all training and diet gurus, it’s funny that you didn’t mention Cy Wilsons name, because he is the guy I origionally got the idea of tapering from, and I will always be gratefull.
OK…this debate is very interesting. The reason I hang out here is to learn the best strategy and tactics in chemical enhancement and intelligent use. I have to admit my previous point of refrence on PCT is Swale’s protocol, which both of you agree is total BS.
I am ending a cycle in 2 weeks, unless I extend it, this is the best one I have done and it’s a bulker and I have major gains and want to keep as much as possible. I might be interested in giving Anthony’s PCT protocol a try since I have all the compounds necessary and start a log. Anybody else interested in the taper method that would also start or contribute to a log?
I would also take into consideration any training advice that would be reccomended. Again any takers?
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Actually I did post my blood work about a year and almost a half ago on here, and no I didn’t do your exact protocol, but close enough to it to know that yours wouldn’t have been any different.
What I did do was 1 month of test prop, to ensure all other compounds had cleared out of the body, along with femara. I had done a weekly hcg protocol throughout the cycle as well. At the end I did 3 weeks of hcg, starting at 500 iu per day, only difference is I tapered down the hcg, as libido was uneffected by doing so (and since the half life of hcg is so short, why would you want to use more than you need to?), and results were unchanged. I tapered the hcg completely off, then stopped the femara, and instead did nolva at 20mg per day with clomid at 50 mg per day, for I believe 4 or 6 weeks normal’.
[/quote]
You didn’t use a SERM with (concurrently) your HCG (which prevents it from inhibiting your HPTA), you didn’t use a Type-I AI (you used a Type-II), and you staggered them instead of using them all at once. Also, you used clomid, which has the effect of reducing your body’s response to LHRH, which you even inhibited by taking HCG without nolvadex!
The pct you did was horrible, and didn’t resemble mine at all. I agree, however, that the pct you did - in fact sucked.
haha I could read you guys conversations for hours at a time