[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
Avoid accommodation to them
Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Something I’d like to add to this is that taking a make effort day to test your max is taking a day away from what otherwise could have been spent developping weaknesses and actually training.It`s…kind of a waste. Max effort day is for special exercise. If I were to work up to a heavier contest squat, it would be on DE day. Getting stronger doesn’t come from maxing your contest lifts all the time, like that old saying about doing a meet every weekend. I’d rather spend a training day improving something I’m awful at as opposed to testing my strength or whatever. That’s for meet day. I hope that made sense?[/quote]
I do remember something in the Book of Methods about occassionally doing a heavy double after the DE work.
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
Avoid accommodation to them
Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Something I’d like to add to this is that taking a make effort day to test your max is taking a day away from what otherwise could have been spent developping weaknesses and actually training.It`s…kind of a waste. Max effort day is for special exercise. If I were to work up to a heavier contest squat, it would be on DE day. Getting stronger doesn’t come from maxing your contest lifts all the time, like that old saying about doing a meet every weekend. I’d rather spend a training day improving something I’m awful at as opposed to testing my strength or whatever. That’s for meet day. I hope that made sense?[/quote]
Excellant points made here, but I am going to take it and run with it one more time. I like to test my maxes every 7-9 weeks. Vladamir makes an excellant point, I am losing a training session that could be making me stronger, but here is why I choose to lose it. I dont really compete that much, ive only competed three times. Id like to do it more, I just dont have the time right now, so I dont have contest maxes to go off of. Dynamic days are crucial for me. They are my hardest days and I think I get the most out of them. So I need to know if I need to change my percentages. If My max squat is 450 and say 9 weeks later, I hit 500, Im going to need to change my DE percentages. If it goes from 450 to 420, obviosly I need to go back through my log book and see what I need to change, thats why I test my maxes.
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
Avoid accommodation to them
Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Something I’d like to add to this is that taking a make effort day to test your max is taking a day away from what otherwise could have been spent developping weaknesses and actually training.It`s…kind of a waste. Max effort day is for special exercise. If I were to work up to a heavier contest squat, it would be on DE day. Getting stronger doesn’t come from maxing your contest lifts all the time, like that old saying about doing a meet every weekend. I’d rather spend a training day improving something I’m awful at as opposed to testing my strength or whatever. That’s for meet day. I hope that made sense?[/quote]
Excellant points made here, but I am going to take it and run with it one more time. I like to test my maxes every 7-9 weeks. Vladamir makes an excellant point, I am losing a training session that could be making me stronger, but here is why I choose to lose it. I dont really compete that much, ive only competed three times. Id like to do it more, I just dont have the time right now, so I dont have contest maxes to go off of. Dynamic days are crucial for me. They are my hardest days and I think I get the most out of them. So I need to know if I need to change my percentages. If My max squat is 450 and say 9 weeks later, I hit 500, Im going to need to change my DE percentages. If it goes from 450 to 420, obviosly I need to go back through my log book and see what I need to change, thats why I test my maxes.[/quote]
Good point. Not competing often would be the ONLY exception here.
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
I just wasn’t really expecting such in depth questions on shit from some people who may not even be “elite level lifters”. Credit to STB and the guys on here that are stronger than me but damn, Louie, Jim and Dave aren’t having a pow wow watching post by post on a talk forum every day ; answering questions from guys who could still probably get away with using the basics.
[quote]
I am pretty sure that the whole reason Louie writes articles/lets people train at Westside for FREE and Dave started EliteFTS.com and gives away priceless training information for FREE is to help people who are a whole lot less experienced than them. The foundation of success that Elite is built on is paved with answering questions from people who want more information on different training methods.
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
Avoid accommodation to them
Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Earlier you mentioned taking away the box for squats at the end of training for a raw competition. Is the idea that you’d want to do something more similar if not the same as the competition lift for ME day a few weeks out, but not actually re-test a 1RM on that lift?
I think one thing that hasn’t really been addressed in practice! Now obviously like people say you need to worry about just being damn strong and that will convert to performing on the platform… BUT, in order to perform at elite levels I think that obviously being very adept at the motions is ESSENTIAL. They say you need 10,000 hours or something of the like to master something! This is my concern with westside - not enough time to practise the 3 core lifts. Now obviously DE day allows one to do this but i was wondering what would be your recommended approach to adding in more practice of the competition lifts in order to master technique?
[quote]arramzy wrote:
I think one thing that hasn’t really been addressed in practice! Now obviously like people say you need to worry about just being damn strong and that will convert to performing on the platform… BUT, in order to perform at elite levels I think that obviously being very adept at the motions is ESSENTIAL. They say you need 10,000 hours or something of the like to master something! This is my concern with westside - not enough time to practise the 3 core lifts. Now obviously DE day allows one to do this but i was wondering what would be your recommended approach to adding in more practice of the competition lifts in order to master technique?[/quote]
I think it’s in this thread somewhere, but basically, if one felt that they needed extra technique work ( aside from their DE training, and especially in the case of raw squatters wanting to do more work without the box), they could always do a very untaxing extra workout with a very low weight. IE Free Squatting 135> for a number of sets and reps. I’ve kind of viewed this to be similar to the way olympic lifters do lots and lots of bar work. If the technique is automatic and the strength is there…sounds like a solution to be strong, to me.
[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
What is everyone opinion on speed pulls? [/quote]
I do them. On top of the technique practice, it makes ( to me) to do speed work for the deadlift in particular, because you’re moving the bar from a dead stop, in one direction. This REQUIRES speed.
You don’t have to take my word for anything I have to say in here though, I’m no where near being the strongest or most knowledgeable guy on this forum ( yet…)
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
Avoid accommodation to them
Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Something I’d like to add to this is that taking a make effort day to test your max is taking a day away from what otherwise could have been spent developping weaknesses and actually training.It`s…kind of a waste. Max effort day is for special exercise. If I were to work up to a heavier contest squat, it would be on DE day. Getting stronger doesn’t come from maxing your contest lifts all the time, like that old saying about doing a meet every weekend. I’d rather spend a training day improving something I’m awful at as opposed to testing my strength or whatever. That’s for meet day. I hope that made sense?[/quote]
Excellant points made here, but I am going to take it and run with it one more time. I like to test my maxes every 7-9 weeks. Vladamir makes an excellant point, I am losing a training session that could be making me stronger, but here is why I choose to lose it. I dont really compete that much, ive only competed three times. Id like to do it more, I just dont have the time right now, so I dont have contest maxes to go off of. Dynamic days are crucial for me. They are my hardest days and I think I get the most out of them. So I need to know if I need to change my percentages. If My max squat is 450 and say 9 weeks later, I hit 500, Im going to need to change my DE percentages. If it goes from 450 to 420, obviosly I need to go back through my log book and see what I need to change, thats why I test my maxes.[/quote]
I hadn’t taken this into consideration when I type up my response. Stupid of me. That makes complete sense, i’m glad it’s working for you
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
Avoid accommodation to them
Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Earlier you mentioned taking away the box for squats at the end of training for a raw competition. Is the idea that you’d want to do something more similar if not the same as the competition lift for ME day a few weeks out, but not actually re-test a 1RM on that lift?[/quote]
YES! That is exactly right. But it should be very similar. Like, ssb squats, cambered bar squats, pause squats, something like the competition lift but not the same. The more you suck at the lift, the more it will transfer over to your competition lift. I suck at free squatting with the SSB. I am definitely doing this more in my next training cycle. The more you get better at the things you suck at, the better your total will be.
[quote]arramzy wrote:
I think one thing that hasn’t really been addressed in practice! Now obviously like people say you need to worry about just being damn strong and that will convert to performing on the platform… BUT, in order to perform at elite levels I think that obviously being very adept at the motions is ESSENTIAL. They say you need 10,000 hours or something of the like to master something! This is my concern with westside - not enough time to practise the 3 core lifts. Now obviously DE day allows one to do this but i was wondering what would be your recommended approach to adding in more practice of the competition lifts in order to master technique?[/quote]
I think it’s in this thread somewhere, but basically, if one felt that they needed extra technique work ( aside from their DE training, and especially in the case of raw squatters wanting to do more work without the box), they could always do a very untaxing extra workout with a very low weight. IE Free Squatting 135> for a number of sets and reps. I’ve kind of viewed this to be similar to the way olympic lifters do lots and lots of bar work. If the technique is automatic and the strength is there…sounds like a solution to be strong, to me.
And hey, it might even help with recovery.
Just my .02[/quote]
Bingo.
Also, if your technique sucks, something is weak or not mobile (which are basically the same things). Bringing up your weaknesses and working on mobility will make your comeptition lifts better.
The time spent doing dynamic work is extensive. If you are doing it correctly, every rep should be at 100% speed. The only way this is possible is to do the lift with perfect form. The ONLY way dynamic work would help improve technique is if you were doing it incorrectly.
Good point with the 10,000 hours though. I do agree that it takes a while to master a skill. There are many ways to skin a cat. Taking 10,000 hours into consideration, if you practiced squatting an hour a day, everyday it would take you 7 years to master squatting. Personally, I’d rather get as efficient as I can at squatting then get so fucking strong that it won’t matter it my technique is a little off.
[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
What is everyone opinion on speed pulls? [/quote]
I do them every week. I would suggest everyone do the same. Personally, I only deadlift heavy once a month. I feel speed and explosiveness is more important for pulling.
[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
What is everyone opinion on speed pulls? [/quote]
I do them every week. I would suggest everyone do the same. Personally, I only deadlift heavy once a month. I feel speed and explosiveness is more important for pulling.[/quote]
Like you suggested in our PM, do you rotate band tensions? Do you always use bands and/or chains?
I only have access to bands as of right now.
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
Avoid accommodation to them
Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Earlier you mentioned taking away the box for squats at the end of training for a raw competition. Is the idea that you’d want to do something more similar if not the same as the competition lift for ME day a few weeks out, but not actually re-test a 1RM on that lift?[/quote]
YES! That is exactly right. But it should be very similar. Like, ssb squats, cambered bar squats, pause squats, something like the competition lift but not the same. The more you suck at the lift, the more it will transfer over to your competition lift. I suck at free squatting with the SSB. I am definitely doing this more in my next training cycle. The more you get better at the things you suck at, the better your total will be.
So you save your heavy band and chain resisted zercher box with foam padding squats type of ME work for the accumulation phase? And no… that’s not an ME lift I’m planning on doing soon.
[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
What is everyone opinion on speed pulls? [/quote]
I do them. On top of the technique practice, it makes ( to me) to do speed work for the deadlift in particular, because you’re moving the bar from a dead stop, in one direction. This REQUIRES speed.
You don’t have to take my word for anything I have to say in here though, I’m no where near being the strongest or most knowledgeable guy on this forum ( yet…)[/quote]
I agree with everything this guy said and for what it’s worth I’m approaching a 700lb raw deadlift. I missed a deadlift for the first time in a comp ever, I think it has something to do with me not doing speed pulls and not getting the technique practice in. I gained 10-12 pounds this last meet cycle and just with that extra bodyweight, it was enough to throw my form off and I ended up falling forward on my last pull.
With the deadlift, you have no eccentric phase and therefore no stretch reflex. Speed pulls re-enforce good technique without a stretch reflex.
You ever notice how when you do a set of 2 or more on deadlifts that the first one is always the hardest one? Well, that’s a bad thing because in a meet you only do 1. So get good at the first rep.
[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
What is everyone opinion on speed pulls? [/quote]
I do them every week. I would suggest everyone do the same. Personally, I only deadlift heavy once a month. I feel speed and explosiveness is more important for pulling.[/quote]
Like you suggested in our PM, do you rotate band tensions? Do you always use bands and/or chains?
I only have access to bands as of right now.
CS[/quote]
Here would be a normal 4-week cycle:
-Pulls Against Quaded Minis- 50% bar weight for 8-10 singles
-Reverse Band Double Overhand Fat Bar Pulls with anywhere from 50-80% of a competition max and the average bands for 8-10 singles
-Pulls Against Quaded Monster Minis with 40% bar weight for 8-10 singles
-Pulls w/ 100-140lbs of chain with 50% bar weight for 8-10 singles
I will always use bands or chains unless a meet is coming up then I drop all Acc. Resistance 2-3 weeks out depending on how I am feeling. I will even use bands or chains in the accumulation phase because of how little I pull for max efforts. Plus, I don’t get a lot out of rack pulls or deficit pulls so my variaiton is limited.