At the end of that program it states a 8 week program. Can I do that with the first couple of weeks being the accumulation block? Or should I do an accumulation block then start that 8 week program.
well said Spar & Deuce, thanks!
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I probably won’t be doing real accommodating resistance for a while, but how would you guys rate the appropriateness of chains or bands to a particular training goal? Say for instance being more explosive/improving strength speed. Would either chains or bands be more appropriate than the other? What about reverse bands vs against bands?
I know reverse bands are supposed to be easier on the body than lifting against bands, but other than what difference does it make? What’s the significance of the difference between something pulling hard against the force you’re applying and something getting heavier throughout the ROM? Why work against bands at all?[/quote]
I realized, only after trying, that working against bands is way harder.
One reason is technique. If you are squatting/benching with the bands, the bands will continue to help regardless of your technique. When you work against the bands and you get out of the line it feels like someone is tackling the bar. I’m not sure if I’m explaining it well.
a second reason is the nature of the band pegs. Think reverse band bench/deadlift. You are closer to the floor and the bands are 8’+ above the start, so they are only stretching a little (mine have no aid when I’m locking out a deadlift). When you fight the bands, they are starting already stretched and at lockout they are about double the stretch, the force change is much much greater. The squat is a lot closer for reverse/against the bands but again, reason number 1 makes it way harder.
I hope some of that made sense
[/quote]
Also, when fighting the bands, the bands will force you to drive much harder. You decelerate the bar naturally and you can train to continually drive through the bar. The bands do not carry any momentum, so if you have a lot of explosiveness then heavy band resistance should kick your ass.
Even if your lockout is amazing, I cant see making it stronger a bad thing[/quote]
I see. Thanks.[/quote]
I actually had a bit of an epiphany about this subject the other day and I hit me why the 2 feel so different.
It’s actually an engineering stability problem. On a reverse band lift, the band force geometrically acts in a stabilizing direction. That is to say, the farther away from the vertical of the band choke point, the harder the bands work to pull you back to center.
Against band lifts, because of the geometry, work in the reverse. The farther the bar is from the vertical of the choke point the more the bands pull you away from the center.
Against bands is an unstable position were reverse bands is an inherently stable one.
It’s similar to a ships buoyancy. You always want the center of gravity below the center of buoyancy so that the ship is naturally self righting; otherwise you have a ship that is going to capsize.
It is the difference between balancing a broom on the palm of your hand and having it dangle from your grip.
Picture for reference. The guy benching has allowed the weight to drift back over his head. The reverse bands (red) will help him recover from this. The resisting bands (blue) will actually make it harder to recover.
Hope that makes sense.
[/quote]
Nice, this is how I always thought about it, but never had the words or drawing skills.
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
I seem to have hurt some feelings or offended some of you, Apologies. But the smart ass remarks?? If you haven’t noticed, I had already posted two questions in regards to speed and how to use lockout work as assistance when needed. All I really was intending to say was that I think as lifters we need to lift first and ask questions later… or stall first and then ask how to keep progressing. (milk the novice gains as much as we can) I just wasn’t really expecting such in depth questions on shit from some people who may not even be “elite level lifters”. Credit to STB and the guys on here that are stronger than me but damn, Louie, Jim and Dave aren’t having a pow wow watching post by post on a talk forum every day ; answering questions from guys who could still probably get away with using the basics.
I’m not meaning to offend any one or bring any “bullshit” to the thread",I apologize for ranting because I obviously have questions too. My problem isn’t people talking about lifting, because I could converse all day for the love it. And STB thank you for starting the thread because it’s a great read at night. And educational for someone aspiring to be strength coach/get a degree in exercise science etc… like me. I just don’t apply to much of it to my own training at this point I guess.
All b.s. aside, I’m actually wondering how bad do I need to “stall” before I should start looking into the reverse bands and shit. That’s my third question :)[/quote]
Well, I don’t know if you meant me, but no hurt feelings. I just thought I’d point out that you seemed to be inconsistent in your own post.
As far as adopting some new strategies… Here’s some food for thought. After training for a year I hit a 425 squat in competition, then I switched to a westside system and added 75 pounds to my squat in 3 months. I think it was the dynamic work against bands, but whatever it was it worked. I think you should only try it if you want to and are excited about it.
Owner of my gym wants me to start training westside with him. He’s pretty advanced, competed in some UK powerlifting championship before the IPF existed, so he knows what he’s doing. Only worry is I think im too weak for a program like westside, total is only 400kg.
[quote]BCR wrote:
Owner of my gym wants me to start training westside with him. He’s pretty advanced, competed in some UK powerlifting championship before the IPF existed, so he knows what he’s doing. Only worry is I think im too weak for a program like westside, total is only 400kg. [/quote]
I think STB mentioned that in his opinion this is still a good program for beginners and the more I think about it I tend to agree. You can get stronger everywhere by doing ME which carries over to the main lifts and you can work on technique/force development with DE. For a beginner technique is crucial and DE will deffinetely give you a chance to practice.
[quote]BCR wrote:
Owner of my gym wants me to start training westside with him. He’s pretty advanced, competed in some UK powerlifting championship before the IPF existed, so he knows what he’s doing. Only worry is I think im too weak for a program like westside, total is only 400kg. [/quote]
I think the reason that Westside is for more advanced lifters is because it takes a lot of experience to be able to properly set up the program, pick your max effort lifts, program your dynamic effort waves, etc. A beginner isn’t going to know their strengths and weaknesses very well, because EVERYTHING is a weakness.
Westside isn’t overly exhausting (with the max effort rotation and dynamic work twice a week, I feel like I have MORE energy throughout the day), so it’s not a work capacity thing, for the most part.
However, if you’re going to be training with a guy who should know what he’s doing and can help you train correctly, by all means, go for it.
[quote]black_angus1 wrote:
[quote]BCR wrote:
Owner of my gym wants me to start training westside with him. He’s pretty advanced, competed in some UK powerlifting championship before the IPF existed, so he knows what he’s doing. Only worry is I think im too weak for a program like westside, total is only 400kg. [/quote]
I think the reason that Westside is for more advanced lifters is because it takes a lot of experience to be able to properly set up the program, pick your max effort lifts, program your dynamic effort waves, etc. A beginner isn’t going to know their strengths and weaknesses very well, because EVERYTHING is a weakness.
Westside isn’t overly exhausting (with the max effort rotation and dynamic work twice a week, I feel like I have MORE energy throughout the day), so it’s not a work capacity thing, for the most part.
However, if you’re going to be training with a guy who should know what he’s doing and can help you train correctly, by all means, go for it. [/quote]
Don’t remember where I read it, might have been in one of the books I’ve read but theres a quote somewhere out there about not overthinking the max effort exercises as a beginner BECAUSE you’re weak everywhere. Just getting stronger and setting PRs in any ME exercise will work.
[quote]PlainPat wrote:
[quote]BCR wrote:
Owner of my gym wants me to start training westside with him. He’s pretty advanced, competed in some UK powerlifting championship before the IPF existed, so he knows what he’s doing. Only worry is I think im too weak for a program like westside, total is only 400kg. [/quote]
I think STB mentioned that in his opinion this is still a good program for beginners and the more I think about it I tend to agree. You can get stronger everywhere by doing ME which carries over to the main lifts and you can work on technique/force development with DE. For a beginner technique is crucial and DE will deffinetely give you a chance to practice.[/quote]
I feel that Westside is a great method for beginners (not raw never-ever-touched-a-weight-before-lifters though!). However, Westside training is a “thinking man’s” method—and as such the more analytical you are, in ADDITION to being willing to put in ballbusting effort, the better the program is for you. A person who doesn’t like to think will not like this program, OR be able to master its nuances. In fact, there’s a lot of complaint across the interwebz from even advanced lifters that WSB doesn’t “work” because they can’t think their way through the program.
I personally started using the program before my squat or deadlift was even 200 lbs. I got a lot out of the program because I read, read, read, and thought even more about things.
Put it this way, you don’t have to be an engineer to make this work, but if you have an engineer’s attitude about it, it’s going to work well for you regardless of beginner or advanced status. If you don’t have that attitude, don’t use it because it requires your mental participation.
[quote]PlainPat wrote:
[quote]black_angus1 wrote:
[quote]BCR wrote:
Owner of my gym wants me to start training westside with him. He’s pretty advanced, competed in some UK powerlifting championship before the IPF existed, so he knows what he’s doing. Only worry is I think im too weak for a program like westside, total is only 400kg. [/quote]
I think the reason that Westside is for more advanced lifters is because it takes a lot of experience to be able to properly set up the program, pick your max effort lifts, program your dynamic effort waves, etc. A beginner isn’t going to know their strengths and weaknesses very well, because EVERYTHING is a weakness.
Westside isn’t overly exhausting (with the max effort rotation and dynamic work twice a week, I feel like I have MORE energy throughout the day), so it’s not a work capacity thing, for the most part.
However, if you’re going to be training with a guy who should know what he’s doing and can help you train correctly, by all means, go for it. [/quote]
Don’t remember where I read it, might have been in one of the books I’ve read but theres a quote somewhere out there about not overthinking the max effort exercises as a beginner BECAUSE you’re weak everywhere. Just getting stronger and setting PRs in any ME exercise will work.[/quote]
I somewhat agree with both of you regarding ME work. But for me and for others, you can get miles and miles of progress out of just the basic variations of the competitive exercises. You’re not going to need 3 or 4 board work if you can’t bench 200 lbs. You don’t need reverse bands, weight releasers, buffalo bars, cambered bars, or specialty equipment. You’re not going to need bands, or chains (though the chains can help). And you can stay with the same ME lift for 5+ weeks because you’re uncoordinated to begin with.
The “9 week Beginner’s Template” that EFS had on there was very very basic, and I used it when I started, and it was great. No really special lifts, although GHRs and reverse hypers were listed (if you didn’t have the equipment you could just substituted something similar in for them).
You can get almost infinite mileage out of GMs, box squat, free squat, deadlift, low rack pull, safety bar squat, bench press, incline press, overhead press. You don’t need all the “complicated stuff” advanced lifters do.
Question about lockout work … should I be able to board/floor press more than my regular max? If im doing them ad assistance to my bench , is it better to try and keep ramping up to another single starting at the days top weight of my Full ROM ? Same with the OHP. Seated press to a single, stand up and do push press to a single starting from the weight I left off at seated. Make sense? Yay or nay
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
Question about lockout work … should I be able to board/floor press more than my regular max?[/quote]
Depends on your strengths and leverages. My 2 board is weaker than my raw flat bench. My 4 board is stronger than my raw flat bench. I always pause on the board. By pausing on the board, I must overcome a dead weight. In a normal, full-range bench the bar already has some momentum at that point in the lift (with respect to the height of the boards). Therefore it would make sense that boards are harder.
For whatever reason, my floor press is about the same. Riddle me that.
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
If im doing them ad assistance to my bench , is it better to try and keep ramping up to another single starting at the days top weight of my Full ROM ? Same with the OHP. Seated press to a single, stand up and do push press to a single starting from the weight I left off at seated. Make sense? Yay or nay
[/quote]
I would say no because these are two different movements with two different motor patterns. Even though they hit the same muscle group they are two different movements. Personally I wouldn’t suggest maxing out on 2 exercises per day either. Find 1 movement to move the world on, and a few supplementary movements and that’s it.
1 Like
[quote]frankjl wrote:
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
Question about lockout work … should I be able to board/floor press more than my regular max?[/quote]
Depends on your strengths and leverages. My 2 board is weaker than my raw flat bench. My 4 board is stronger than my raw flat bench. I always pause on the board. By pausing on the board, I must overcome a dead weight. In a normal, full-range bench the bar already has some momentum at that point in the lift (with respect to the height of the boards). Therefore it would make sense that boards are harder.
For whatever reason, my floor press is about the same. Riddle me that.
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
If im doing them ad assistance to my bench , is it better to try and keep ramping up to another single starting at the days top weight of my Full ROM ? Same with the OHP. Seated press to a single, stand up and do push press to a single starting from the weight I left off at seated. Make sense? Yay or nay
[/quote]
I would say no because these are two different movements with two different motor patterns. Even though they hit the same muscle group they are two different movements. Personally I wouldn’t suggest maxing out on 2 exercises per day either. Find 1 movement to move the world on, and a few supplementary movements and that’s it.[/quote]
I personally tap and go on the boards, but it depends on what you want to work. I definitely agree that you should not keep ramping up to a single on boards after doing your full ROM bench. I like boards after benching, but not to singles. If your lockout sucks, then all you need to do for a raw lifter is work reps with your max full ROM and maybe a bit higher than that. Basically, you use the boards as overload volume for triceps. By volume i don’t mean sets of 10 though. I mean strength work, but not gut busting sets. Really this amounts to getting comfortable “feeling” the heavy weight in your hands.
Also, unless your lockout is terrible at the very very end of the bench, 5 board work is overrated for raw lifting. I would probably stick with the 3/4 board or 2 board for most of your board work. If you’re weak in the mid range, then the 2 board is most likely to be helpful and weaker than your full ROM bench. So it depends on what you’re working.
If working lockout and overload, do your full ROM bench, then use a 3 board and work at that weight or go up slightly and do some sets of 5 or 3 to feel the heavy weight and get comfortable with being tight and in control and add volume for your triceps. Again, not sets going to failure or having to psyche yourself up. Just working volume.
If working on a weak point in the mid range of your bench, you can use the 2 board press, or any board that is weaker than your full ROM bench, and train with that as your primary heavy lift for a bit.
Chase:
The ramping idea (seated to standing, to push press) makes sense, and IMHO has a place in training (I use the push press, incline, flat ramp. Sometimes including the decline after the flat bench). CT uses it in various ways. However with that I would NOT max out on each lift. Instead I would merely go to weight that is “heavy” but moving very fast (no grinding or difficulty), and then switch at that weight, only maxing out on the last lift. In fact I’d be inclined to use a triple instead of a single for a lot of that style of training, keep the nervous system drain a bit lower than going to max single. Your max weight will be lower because of the pre-fatigue in your assisting muscles from the other lifts, but in my experimenting with them it helped my strength levels AFTER a number of weeks on that when I just warmed up and went straight to flat bench “fresh” without the ramping.
Then again, my weaknesses were shoulders, and some triceps. So from that perspective the ramp tuned perfectly into my weaknesses.
1 and 2 boards, for me, are used as ME exercises. I always touch and go when doing these. They contribute to my full range of motion bench the greatest.
3 board is an assistance exercise. Great for buliding strength in the tri’s
4 board is a bit different. Yes its also a good strength builder, but i use it more as a confidence booster. It allows me to get a shit ton of weight over my chest, yet I cn still complete the execise. For me, it builds mental toughness.
Another great execise for lockout strength is to set up in a power rack and do pin presses or dead presses from any of these heights. I know those dead presses, especially from chest level with kick your ego’s ass real quick. Hope this helps a bit
Looks like a lot of good shit on here while I was out of town. Instead of going back through and adding my 2 cents to the million posts that came up while I was away, just let me know if anyone needs any clarification on anything that has been asked already.
This thread is becoming more awesome than I though it was going to be.
Just to generate some discussion, what are everyone’s all time favorite ME movements?
I always find myself most challenged by SSB Low Box squats, floor press, and rev. band dl
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much?
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
- Avoid accommodation to them
- Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
- Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
- Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
As I was looking into this program I realized that deadlift, bench press, and squat are not used as max effort lifts. I was wondering why is that? Does it hurt the CNS too much? [/quote]
The entire system is based around improving weaknesses to improve the competition lifts in the competition. Tons of squats, benches, and deadlifts variations are done on ME days but those variaitons need to be specific to points in the lift that you are weakest. The actual competition lifts arent done in training for a couple reasons:
- Avoid accommodation to them
- Bringing up your weaknesses will bring up the competition lifts
- Having to test your bench squat and/or deadlift in training means you have a confidence problem. Either lack of confidence in yourself or lack of confidence in your program
- Even if you smash all of your best lifts in training, it doesnt count until you do it in a meet.
These are very hard concepts for most lifters to grasp, especially those new to the system.[/quote]
Something I’d like to add to this is that taking a make effort day to test your max is taking a day away from what otherwise could have been spent developping weaknesses and actually training.It`s…kind of a waste. Max effort day is for special exercise. If I were to work up to a heavier contest squat, it would be on DE day. Getting stronger doesn’t come from maxing your contest lifts all the time, like that old saying about doing a meet every weekend. I’d rather spend a training day improving something I’m awful at as opposed to testing my strength or whatever. That’s for meet day. I hope that made sense?