I’ve just been reading this thread everyday and there is a ton of great information in here. STB, good luck this weekend man…smash some PRs!
Just gonna post my plan up for accumulation and see what you think STB…
Accumulation 5 weeks:
W1-2
Max Squat/DL:
Low Box Squat 3RM
DB RDL 6x60s (My weakness)
Band GM’s 5xNear Fail (Shoot for 30+reps)
Pull down abs 5x60s
Max Bench:
Floor Press 3RM
Tate Press 6x60s
3 Last sets SS with 30secs of Pushdowns (Weakness work)
DB Front Raise 5x60s
Bent DB Rows 5xNear Fail
DE Squat:
Box Squat 15x2 50%
1 Leg Band Curl 6xNear Fail
SSB GM’s (No access to back raises or things so I included this even though its more specific) 5x45s
DB Side Bends 5xNear Fail
Backwards Prowler Drags 5x60s
DE Bench:
Bench 15x3 50%
Tricep Pushdowns 6x60s
Low Inc. DB Bench 5xNear Fail
Chins 5xNear Fail
DB Curls 5xNear Fail (Just for elbow flexion)
W3-4
Max Squat:
Change to SSB Low Box Squat 3RM
Max bench:
Low Inc. Bench 3RM
DE Squat:
Change to 55%
DE Bench:
55%
W5
Max Squat:
Deificit Pulls 3RM
Max Bench:
Low Inc. CG Bench 3RM
DE Squat and Bench —> 60%
After This I would go into Transmution for 3 weeks then deload and repeat cycle maybe changing assistance and my ME exercises up for the next cycle. I’ve got my transmution written out too but figured I’d start by asking what you thought of this.
Picking up heavy shit works for a while. And hell, those numbers at that age, Id be damn proud too. I still have my journals from when I started lifting in college. My max bench was 175lbs for 4!!! and I was of legal age to drink, lol, so props to you on that. But can I ask you something? How much did you have to learn to get that 500lbs squat?
How much more are you going to have to learn to get that squat to 700lbs? Math has always been a part of powerlifting. The great Ed Coan didnt just pick up heavy shit, he laid out a program. Same with Capt Kirk. It was certain percentages on certain weeks leading up to the contest. Math in powerlifting is nothing new.
Westside, Conjugate, Bulgarian, Eastern Block, call it what you will, but it works. You say “fuck the bands” but in the realm of powerlifting, few people DONT use them. They arent complex or complicated, you just have to learn the system. I hope as you read through this thread you will pick up some stuff that starts pushing those numbers up. Lets face it, we all just want to be stronger. The best of luck to you
[quote]PlainPat wrote:
Just gonna post my plan up for accumulation and see what you think STB…
Accumulation 5 weeks:
W1-2
Max Squat/DL:
Low Box Squat 3RM
DB RDL 6x60s (My weakness)
Band GM’s 5xNear Fail (Shoot for 30+reps)
Pull down abs 5x60s
Max Bench:
Floor Press 3RM
Tate Press 6x60s
3 Last sets SS with 30secs of Pushdowns (Weakness work)
DB Front Raise 5x60s
Bent DB Rows 5xNear Fail
DE Squat:
Box Squat 15x2 50%
1 Leg Band Curl 6xNear Fail
SSB GM’s (No access to back raises or things so I included this even though its more specific) 5x45s
DB Side Bends 5xNear Fail
Backwards Prowler Drags 5x60s
DE Bench:
Bench 15x3 50%
Tricep Pushdowns 6x60s
Low Inc. DB Bench 5xNear Fail
Chins 5xNear Fail
DB Curls 5xNear Fail (Just for elbow flexion)
W3-4
Max Squat:
Change to SSB Low Box Squat 3RM
Max bench:
Low Inc. Bench 3RM
DE Squat:
Change to 55%
DE Bench:
55%
W5
Max Squat:
Deificit Pulls 3RM
Max Bench:
Low Inc. CG Bench 3RM
DE Squat and Bench —> 60%
After This I would go into Transmution for 3 weeks then deload and repeat cycle maybe changing assistance and my ME exercises up for the next cycle. I’ve got my transmution written out too but figured I’d start by asking what you thought of this.[/quote]
I would throw in atleast 6-8 singles on deadlifts at around 50% on Lower DE days. I always do speed pulls, helps me to remember proper set-up and form.
One more thing I would add and I cant beleive Im recomending this on a powerlifting thread, please forgive me, but you should throw in some form of a curl once a week. I was having some bad pain in my bicepts when I was doing heavy pressing and squatting. I fucking hate training Bi’s but once I added in a curl, the pain got much better. Something to do with balancing out the arm? Seeing as how I beat the shit out of my tri’s, it only makes sense to give them a little work. Plus it will help on your grip strength aswell
[quote]Chicksan wrote:
[quote]PlainPat wrote:
Just gonna post my plan up for accumulation and see what you think STB…
Accumulation 5 weeks:
W1-2
Max Squat/DL:
Low Box Squat 3RM
DB RDL 6x60s (My weakness)
Band GM’s 5xNear Fail (Shoot for 30+reps)
Pull down abs 5x60s
Max Bench:
Floor Press 3RM
Tate Press 6x60s
3 Last sets SS with 30secs of Pushdowns (Weakness work)
DB Front Raise 5x60s
Bent DB Rows 5xNear Fail
DE Squat:
Box Squat 15x2 50%
1 Leg Band Curl 6xNear Fail
SSB GM’s (No access to back raises or things so I included this even though its more specific) 5x45s
DB Side Bends 5xNear Fail
Backwards Prowler Drags 5x60s
DE Bench:
Bench 15x3 50%
Tricep Pushdowns 6x60s
Low Inc. DB Bench 5xNear Fail
Chins 5xNear Fail
DB Curls 5xNear Fail (Just for elbow flexion)
W3-4
Max Squat:
Change to SSB Low Box Squat 3RM
Max bench:
Low Inc. Bench 3RM
DE Squat:
Change to 55%
DE Bench:
55%
W5
Max Squat:
Deificit Pulls 3RM
Max Bench:
Low Inc. CG Bench 3RM
DE Squat and Bench —> 60%
After This I would go into Transmution for 3 weeks then deload and repeat cycle maybe changing assistance and my ME exercises up for the next cycle. I’ve got my transmution written out too but figured I’d start by asking what you thought of this.[/quote]
I would throw in atleast 6-8 singles on deadlifts at around 50% on Lower DE days. I always do speed pulls, helps me to remember proper set-up and form.
One more thing I would add and I cant beleive Im recomending this on a powerlifting thread, please forgive me, but you should throw in some form of a curl once a week. I was having some bad pain in my bicepts when I was doing heavy pressing and squatting. I fucking hate training Bi’s but once I added in a curl, the pain got much better. Something to do with balancing out the arm? Seeing as how I beat the shit out of my tri’s, it only makes sense to give them a little work. Plus it will help on your grip strength aswell[/quote]
I have curls in there on DE bench day I think you missed it haha I even said for wlbow flexing because a lot of people seem to have that issue on westside. I was gonna add those in when I was more towards a meet but it seems a lot of people include them all the time so I’ll probably throw them in there.
Went back and re-read it…you did, sorry about that. Its been a long fucking day already!! lol
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Chase, Obviously you seem to be naturally strong but part of the point of this thread is to go beyond what loading heavy shit on the bar will accomplish. At some point what your doing will stop working, you might even be stronger than everyone else in this thread at that point. But when you stall out you can either stay there or try to learn something new that might improve your lifts.[/quote]
Chase is 18. Must’ve been a typo.
I probably won’t be doing real accommodating resistance for a while, but how would you guys rate the appropriateness of chains or bands to a particular training goal? Say for instance being more explosive/improving strength speed. Would either chains or bands be more appropriate than the other? What about reverse bands vs against bands?
I know reverse bands are supposed to be easier on the body than lifting against bands, but other than what difference does it make? What’s the significance of the difference between something pulling hard against the force you’re applying and something getting heavier throughout the ROM? Why work against bands at all?
Hey STB, I hope you rock your meet this weekend!
I was curious about ME days. I have seen some people work up to a max and then after that they typically go to about 80% of that weight and rep out for a couple of sets. Do you find this beneficial to add in more volume? Are there certain times you should or should not do this in your training?
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I probably won’t be doing real accommodating resistance for a while, but how would you guys rate the appropriateness of chains or bands to a particular training goal? Say for instance being more explosive/improving strength speed. Would either chains or bands be more appropriate than the other? What about reverse bands vs against bands?
I know reverse bands are supposed to be easier on the body than lifting against bands, but other than what difference does it make? What’s the significance of the difference between something pulling hard against the force you’re applying and something getting heavier throughout the ROM? Why work against bands at all?[/quote]
I realized, only after trying, that working against bands is way harder.
One reason is technique. If you are squatting/benching with the bands, the bands will continue to help regardless of your technique. When you work against the bands and you get out of the line it feels like someone is tackling the bar. I’m not sure if I’m explaining it well.
a second reason is the nature of the band pegs. Think reverse band bench/deadlift. You are closer to the floor and the bands are 8’+ above the start, so they are only stretching a little (mine have no aid when I’m locking out a deadlift). When you fight the bands, they are starting already stretched and at lockout they are about double the stretch, the force change is much much greater. The squat is a lot closer for reverse/against the bands but again, reason number 1 makes it way harder.
I hope some of that made sense
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I probably won’t be doing real accommodating resistance for a while, but how would you guys rate the appropriateness of chains or bands to a particular training goal? Say for instance being more explosive/improving strength speed. Would either chains or bands be more appropriate than the other? What about reverse bands vs against bands?
I know reverse bands are supposed to be easier on the body than lifting against bands, but other than what difference does it make? What’s the significance of the difference between something pulling hard against the force you’re applying and something getting heavier throughout the ROM? Why work against bands at all?[/quote]
I realized, only after trying, that working against bands is way harder.
One reason is technique. If you are squatting/benching with the bands, the bands will continue to help regardless of your technique. When you work against the bands and you get out of the line it feels like someone is tackling the bar. I’m not sure if I’m explaining it well.
a second reason is the nature of the band pegs. Think reverse band bench/deadlift. You are closer to the floor and the bands are 8’+ above the start, so they are only stretching a little (mine have no aid when I’m locking out a deadlift). When you fight the bands, they are starting already stretched and at lockout they are about double the stretch, the force change is much much greater. The squat is a lot closer for reverse/against the bands but again, reason number 1 makes it way harder.
I hope some of that made sense
[/quote]
Also, when fighting the bands, the bands will force you to drive much harder. You decelerate the bar naturally and you can train to continually drive through the bar. The bands do not carry any momentum, so if you have a lot of explosiveness then heavy band resistance should kick your ass.
Even if your lockout is amazing, I cant see making it stronger a bad thing
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I probably won’t be doing real accommodating resistance for a while, but how would you guys rate the appropriateness of chains or bands to a particular training goal? Say for instance being more explosive/improving strength speed. Would either chains or bands be more appropriate than the other? What about reverse bands vs against bands?
I know reverse bands are supposed to be easier on the body than lifting against bands, but other than what difference does it make? What’s the significance of the difference between something pulling hard against the force you’re applying and something getting heavier throughout the ROM? Why work against bands at all?[/quote]
I realized, only after trying, that working against bands is way harder.
One reason is technique. If you are squatting/benching with the bands, the bands will continue to help regardless of your technique. When you work against the bands and you get out of the line it feels like someone is tackling the bar. I’m not sure if I’m explaining it well.
a second reason is the nature of the band pegs. Think reverse band bench/deadlift. You are closer to the floor and the bands are 8’+ above the start, so they are only stretching a little (mine have no aid when I’m locking out a deadlift). When you fight the bands, they are starting already stretched and at lockout they are about double the stretch, the force change is much much greater. The squat is a lot closer for reverse/against the bands but again, reason number 1 makes it way harder.
I hope some of that made sense
[/quote]
Also, when fighting the bands, the bands will force you to drive much harder. You decelerate the bar naturally and you can train to continually drive through the bar. The bands do not carry any momentum, so if you have a lot of explosiveness then heavy band resistance should kick your ass.
Even if your lockout is amazing, I cant see making it stronger a bad thing[/quote]
I see. Thanks.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I probably won’t be doing real accommodating resistance for a while, but how would you guys rate the appropriateness of chains or bands to a particular training goal? Say for instance being more explosive/improving strength speed. Would either chains or bands be more appropriate than the other? What about reverse bands vs against bands?
I know reverse bands are supposed to be easier on the body than lifting against bands, but other than what difference does it make? What’s the significance of the difference between something pulling hard against the force you’re applying and something getting heavier throughout the ROM? Why work against bands at all?[/quote]
I realized, only after trying, that working against bands is way harder.
One reason is technique. If you are squatting/benching with the bands, the bands will continue to help regardless of your technique. When you work against the bands and you get out of the line it feels like someone is tackling the bar. I’m not sure if I’m explaining it well.
a second reason is the nature of the band pegs. Think reverse band bench/deadlift. You are closer to the floor and the bands are 8’+ above the start, so they are only stretching a little (mine have no aid when I’m locking out a deadlift). When you fight the bands, they are starting already stretched and at lockout they are about double the stretch, the force change is much much greater. The squat is a lot closer for reverse/against the bands but again, reason number 1 makes it way harder.
I hope some of that made sense
[/quote]
Also, when fighting the bands, the bands will force you to drive much harder. You decelerate the bar naturally and you can train to continually drive through the bar. The bands do not carry any momentum, so if you have a lot of explosiveness then heavy band resistance should kick your ass.
Even if your lockout is amazing, I cant see making it stronger a bad thing[/quote]
I see. Thanks.[/quote]
I actually had a bit of an epiphany about this subject the other day and I hit me why the 2 feel so different.
It’s actually an engineering stability problem. On a reverse band lift, the band force geometrically acts in a stabilizing direction. That is to say, the farther away from the vertical of the band choke point, the harder the bands work to pull you back to center.
Against band lifts, because of the geometry, work in the reverse. The farther the bar is from the vertical of the choke point the more the bands pull you away from the center.
Against bands is an unstable position were reverse bands is an inherently stable one.
It’s similar to a ships buoyancy. You always want the center of gravity below the center of buoyancy so that the ship is naturally self righting; otherwise you have a ship that is going to capsize.
It is the difference between balancing a broom on the palm of your hand and having it dangle from your grip.
Picture for reference. The guy benching has allowed the weight to drift back over his head. The reverse bands (red) will help him recover from this. The resisting bands (blue) will actually make it harder to recover.
Hope that makes sense.
Of course the other big component is momentum. You can have the same force curve through the lift for band and rev band, but the momentum will be completely different.
With band work, it takes momentum out of the lift. You can’t use strong points in the lift to blow past weak points. With reverse band work you are essentially adding extra momentum to the lift. It becomes easier to use strong points to carry you over weak points.
I seem to have hurt some feelings or offended some of you, Apologies. But the smart ass remarks?? If you haven’t noticed, I had already posted two questions in regards to speed and how to use lockout work as assistance when needed. All I really was intending to say was that I think as lifters we need to lift first and ask questions later… or stall first and then ask how to keep progressing. (milk the novice gains as much as we can) I just wasn’t really expecting such in depth questions on shit from some people who may not even be “elite level lifters”. Credit to STB and the guys on here that are stronger than me but damn, Louie, Jim and Dave aren’t having a pow wow watching post by post on a talk forum every day ; answering questions from guys who could still probably get away with using the basics.
I’m not meaning to offend any one or bring any “bullshit” to the thread",I apologize for ranting because I obviously have questions too. My problem isn’t people talking about lifting, because I could converse all day for the love it. And STB thank you for starting the thread because it’s a great read at night. And educational for someone aspiring to be strength coach/get a degree in exercise science etc… like me. I just don’t apply to much of it to my own training at this point I guess.
All b.s. aside, I’m actually wondering how bad do I need to “stall” before I should start looking into the reverse bands and shit. That’s my third question 
So raw lifters should use breifs? I thought those were some kind of gear? I guess what I’m asking is: What are briefs and what do they do?
I love this thread: the more questions I ask, the more I realize how little I know.
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
Louie, Jim and Dave aren’t having a pow wow watching post by post on a talk forum every day ; answering questions from guys who could still probably get away with using the basics.
[/quote]
Actually, Jim does post here regularly.
And the only thing you should do in lifting is what you enjoy. You aren’t making money, do it the way you like it. Period.
Most people enjoy progress, so that’s a big part of it, but it ain’t the only part. There are a lot of way to make progress.
A lot of people enjoy the science of it, and that’s great too. Some people enjoy setting up their workouts with a calculator, and some don’t. Do what you enjoy, period.
For example, my comments about the bands was more because I’m an engineer than because I’m a lifter. It’s the way I think about things everywhere, not just inside of lifting. I enjoy the physics of lifting.
Life is too short to do things solely for the result at the end of a long road that may of may not come.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I probably won’t be doing real accommodating resistance for a while, but how would you guys rate the appropriateness of chains or bands to a particular training goal? Say for instance being more explosive/improving strength speed. Would either chains or bands be more appropriate than the other? What about reverse bands vs against bands?
I know reverse bands are supposed to be easier on the body than lifting against bands, but other than what difference does it make? What’s the significance of the difference between something pulling hard against the force you’re applying and something getting heavier throughout the ROM? Why work against bands at all?[/quote]
I realized, only after trying, that working against bands is way harder.
One reason is technique. If you are squatting/benching with the bands, the bands will continue to help regardless of your technique. When you work against the bands and you get out of the line it feels like someone is tackling the bar. I’m not sure if I’m explaining it well.
a second reason is the nature of the band pegs. Think reverse band bench/deadlift. You are closer to the floor and the bands are 8’+ above the start, so they are only stretching a little (mine have no aid when I’m locking out a deadlift). When you fight the bands, they are starting already stretched and at lockout they are about double the stretch, the force change is much much greater. The squat is a lot closer for reverse/against the bands but again, reason number 1 makes it way harder.
I hope some of that made sense
[/quote]
Also, when fighting the bands, the bands will force you to drive much harder. You decelerate the bar naturally and you can train to continually drive through the bar. The bands do not carry any momentum, so if you have a lot of explosiveness then heavy band resistance should kick your ass.
Even if your lockout is amazing, I cant see making it stronger a bad thing[/quote]
I see. Thanks.[/quote]
I actually had a bit of an epiphany about this subject the other day and I hit me why the 2 feel so different.
It’s actually an engineering stability problem. On a reverse band lift, the band force geometrically acts in a stabilizing direction. That is to say, the farther away from the vertical of the band choke point, the harder the bands work to pull you back to center.
Against band lifts, because of the geometry, work in the reverse. The farther the bar is from the vertical of the choke point the more the bands pull you away from the center.
Against bands is an unstable position were reverse bands is an inherently stable one.
It’s similar to a ships buoyancy. You always want the center of gravity below the center of buoyancy so that the ship is naturally self righting; otherwise you have a ship that is going to capsize.
It is the difference between balancing a broom on the palm of your hand and having it dangle from your grip.
Picture for reference. The guy benching has allowed the weight to drift back over his head. The reverse bands (red) will help him recover from this. The resisting bands (blue) will actually make it harder to recover.
Hope that makes sense.
[/quote]
Makes perfect sense. Appreciate the write up and pic.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Of course the other big component is momentum. You can have the same force curve through the lift for band and rev band, but the momentum will be completely different.
With band work, it takes momentum out of the lift. You can’t use strong points in the lift to blow past weak points. With reverse band work you are essentially adding extra momentum to the lift. It becomes easier to use strong points to carry you over weak points.
[/quote]
I could visualize the physics a bit. I just needed a bit more insight. Thanks again.
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
I seem to have hurt some feelings or offended some of you, Apologies. But the smart ass remarks?? If you haven’t noticed, I had already posted two questions in regards to speed and how to use lockout work as assistance when needed. All I really was intending to say was that I think as lifters we need to lift first and ask questions later… or stall first and then ask how to keep progressing. (milk the novice gains as much as we can) I just wasn’t really expecting such in depth questions on shit from some people who may not even be “elite level lifters”. Credit to STB and the guys on here that are stronger than me but damn, Louie, Jim and Dave aren’t having a pow wow watching post by post on a talk forum every day ; answering questions from guys who could still probably get away with using the basics.
I’m not meaning to offend any one or bring any “bullshit” to the thread",I apologize for ranting because I obviously have questions too. My problem isn’t people talking about lifting, because I could converse all day for the love it. And STB thank you for starting the thread because it’s a great read at night. And educational for someone aspiring to be strength coach/get a degree in exercise science etc… like me. I just don’t apply to much of it to my own training at this point I guess.
All b.s. aside, I’m actually wondering how bad do I need to “stall” before I should start looking into the reverse bands and shit. That’s my third question :)[/quote]
You and I both already have a pretty good base of strength, but we can definitely milk straight weight for several more years without too much trouble. I think it’s using when you make the decision. No sense in making arbitrary milestones to justify the use of a tactic. I could see myself experimenting with this stuff in a few years, but straight weight and a simple approach to lifting will no doubt remain the foundation of my lifting for decades.