The Westside Method Thread

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked but I was wondering how somewhat of a beginner would do Westside.

From a little bit that I’ve read here and there, some say that you shouldn’t do DE days and that only ME and RE are what you really require initially. Further, for a beginner, is there much use in changing lifts every few weeks? As in, going from 2 board to floor press to close inclines etc.

If that’s the case, how would one incorporate these for a beginner?[/quote]

Think I can answer for STB where he would say that DE is important because you need to work on form, and to change lifts every week. Thats just what I know he’d say by talking to him about it but I’m sure he’ll chime in.

[quote]simonsky96 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Razamataz wrote:
Jim Wendler suggests them as a ME exercise in the ‘Max Effort’ ebook.[/quote]

He also tells a story about reverse band goodmornings in the Max Effort Manual. I would like to think he was joking about the illegal wides too. haha. That was one of the best books on training I have ever read.[/quote]

i’ve watched louie’s dvd’s and he suggests db’s for reps or illegal wides as a deload main movement for ME Upper day[/quote]

That’s fine. Doing them for a 1-3rm might not be the best idea though.

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked but I was wondering how somewhat of a beginner would do Westside.

From a little bit that I’ve read here and there, some say that you shouldn’t do DE days and that only ME and RE are what you really require initially. Further, for a beginner, is there much use in changing lifts every few weeks? As in, going from 2 board to floor press to close inclines etc.

If that’s the case, how would one incorporate these for a beginner?[/quote]

Think I can answer for STB where he would say that DE is important because you need to work on form, and to change lifts every week. Thats just what I know he’d say by talking to him about it but I’m sure he’ll chime in.[/quote]

I agree completely.

There are a bunch of other factors that go into it as well. Strength is developed in 2 ways:

Exerting Max force and developing max tension.

Dynamic efforts teach you develop max force in the shortest time possible. Max efforts teach you how to develop force and tension. I see that stuff all the time where people say you don’t need dynamic efforts, for those just starting out and those who are more experienced.

Here is a real world example: Next time you lift something heavy, try to lift it as slow as you possibly can. Odds are you arent going to get the lift and you are going to hurt yourself. My point? It is impossible to lift maximal weights slowly. Speed has to be developed in order to be a good lifter.

Anyway, to incorporate dynamic days, scroll back through the thread. There is a ton of info for those just starting out. Here is a general outline:

2 max effort days a week
2 dynamic effort days a week
Tons of Repeated Efforts after your lifts
Only do things you suck at and constantly be working on your weaknesses

There is a lot of programming info on the first few pages as well.

Did this help answer your question?

A little, yes.

However, for a beginner (170kg, 102.5kg x 3, 185kg x 2 (sq, bp, dl)) at a gym that doesn’t have bands or chains and things like that, do you think this could work?

As in, a beginner would reinforce their form through DE days for squat let say. But do you think doing a GM for 3RM on ME day is really that helpful? I think for advanced lifters it is, but I somewhat find it hard to believe that if I did that it would really help my squat. I may well be wrong of course.

So what I’m asking is, what kind of ME work would you do if you are a beginner? DE days you do bench press and free squat, right? But what about ME days? I mean, I don’t have board presses or anything for bench press either. Is it pretty useless if you don’t have these kind of extra things? Because then all you can do is change your grip and stance on the main lifts, nothing else.

I’ve most often read that the supplemental exercise should stay the same for both ME and DE days, however I’ve seen the occasional recommendation to vary them using a high intensity/low volume exercise, usually recommended for DE day and a low intensity/high volume exercise, usually recommended for ME day.

Besides balancing out the intensity/volume over the two days are there any specific advantages/disadvantages to this, especially for a beginner.

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
A little, yes.

However, for a beginner (170kg, 102.5kg x 3, 185kg x 2 (sq, bp, dl)) at a gym that doesn’t have bands or chains and things like that, do you think this could work?

As in, a beginner would reinforce their form through DE days for squat let say. But do you think doing a GM for 3RM on ME day is really that helpful? I think for advanced lifters it is, but I somewhat find it hard to believe that if I did that it would really help my squat. I may well be wrong of course.

So what I’m asking is, what kind of ME work would you do if you are a beginner? DE days you do bench press and free squat, right? But what about ME days? I mean, I don’t have board presses or anything for bench press either. Is it pretty useless if you don’t have these kind of extra things? Because then all you can do is change your grip and stance on the main lifts, nothing else.[/quote]

Everyone on earth has a weak posterior chain. GMs will not only make your squat and deadlift better, they will make your bench press better. But, the purpose of training is not to get really good at training, it is to kick ass in meets (for the purpose of this thread anyway).

As far as ME days, you have tons of variaitons available to you. You just have to get creative. For example, take bench press. There is probably an incline bench there. Using a close, medium, and competition grip gives you three variations. Same with floor press. Same with a standing push press. Same with a seated push press. Take the initiative to make or buy a set of 2 and 3 boards, use three different grips on those, then you now have 6 more variations. We are already at 18 different exercises that work different leverages. Buy a pair of mini, monster mini, and or light bands, and you have now added reverse bands and accommoadted resistance to these exercises which now brings your variaiton total to almost 350 different exercises if my math is right… even if it isn’t its still a ton of variaitons.

Yes, DE bench days are always done on a flat bench, usually with a straight bar. Ideally, you want to squat to a box (or a bench) for your DE squats.

Really though, all that matters is that you are developing all of the skills needed to be as strong as possible. As long as you have a day where you move near max weights (ME) move submax weights fast (DE) and bring up your weaknesses with a ton of assistance work (RE) then you will get stronger.

To answer the overall question you are asking, the only difference between someone just starting out and an elite level strength athlete is going to be GPP. I would reccommend dragging or pushing a sled after every workout (or even before) or doing tons of jumps/explosive plyometrics, doing tons of sprints, doing circuits (like tabata’s) with barbell movements, lots of bodybuilding style training for RE work, and just getting in really, really good shape. Also, doing tons of mobility work will greatly extend your lifting career.

Does that clear it up a little bit more?

Just keep in mind there is no x-factor, no real magic bullet for getting strong. Some people are genetic freaks and don’t have to do a lot of complicated, well-planned stuff to get really big and strong. For the remaining 99% of the human population, like myself, it takes DECADES of trial and error, injuries, and busting ass to gain even the smallest of improvements. Anyone who says any different is trying to steal your money.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Razamataz wrote:
Jim Wendler suggests them as a ME exercise in the ‘Max Effort’ ebook.[/quote]

He also tells a story about reverse band goodmornings in the Max Effort Manual. I would like to think he was joking about the illegal wides too. haha. That was one of the best books on training I have ever read.[/quote]

I laughed my ass off at that entry.

Thanks for the response to the other post. I’ll be putting together a program using what I’ve learning in this thread.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
A little, yes.

However, for a beginner (170kg, 102.5kg x 3, 185kg x 2 (sq, bp, dl)) at a gym that doesn’t have bands or chains and things like that, do you think this could work?

As in, a beginner would reinforce their form through DE days for squat let say. But do you think doing a GM for 3RM on ME day is really that helpful? I think for advanced lifters it is, but I somewhat find it hard to believe that if I did that it would really help my squat. I may well be wrong of course.

So what I’m asking is, what kind of ME work would you do if you are a beginner? DE days you do bench press and free squat, right? But what about ME days? I mean, I don’t have board presses or anything for bench press either. Is it pretty useless if you don’t have these kind of extra things? Because then all you can do is change your grip and stance on the main lifts, nothing else.[/quote]

Everyone on earth has a weak posterior chain. GMs will not only make your squat and deadlift better, they will make your bench press better. But, the purpose of training is not to get really good at training, it is to kick ass in meets (for the purpose of this thread anyway).

As far as ME days, you have tons of variaitons available to you. You just have to get creative. For example, take bench press. There is probably an incline bench there. Using a close, medium, and competition grip gives you three variations. Same with floor press. Same with a standing push press. Same with a seated push press. Take the initiative to make or buy a set of 2 and 3 boards, use three different grips on those, then you now have 6 more variations. We are already at 18 different exercises that work different leverages. Buy a pair of mini, monster mini, and or light bands, and you have now added reverse bands and accommoadted resistance to these exercises which now brings your variaiton total to almost 350 different exercises if my math is right… even if it isn’t its still a ton of variaitons.

Yes, DE bench days are always done on a flat bench, usually with a straight bar. Ideally, you want to squat to a box (or a bench) for your DE squats.

Really though, all that matters is that you are developing all of the skills needed to be as strong as possible. As long as you have a day where you move near max weights (ME) move submax weights fast (DE) and bring up your weaknesses with a ton of assistance work (RE) then you will get stronger.

To answer the overall question you are asking, the only difference between someone just starting out and an elite level strength athlete is going to be GPP. I would reccommend dragging or pushing a sled after every workout (or even before) or doing tons of jumps/explosive plyometrics, doing tons of sprints, doing circuits (like tabata’s) with barbell movements, lots of bodybuilding style training for RE work, and just getting in really, really good shape. Also, doing tons of mobility work will greatly extend your lifting career.

Does that clear it up a little bit more?

Just keep in mind there is no x-factor, no real magic bullet for getting strong. Some people are genetic freaks and don’t have to do a lot of complicated, well-planned stuff to get really big and strong. For the remaining 99% of the human population, like myself, it takes DECADES of trial and error, injuries, and busting ass to gain even the smallest of improvements. Anyone who says any different is trying to steal your money.[/quote]

Also you’ve gotta remember that even if a GM isn’t a squat, it still uses the same muscle groups as a squat. So you gotta ask yourself, why WOULDN’T this help my squat? Keep in mind everyone has movements that work better than others towards improving their competition lifts and you’ll just have to figure yours out over time.

Thank you.

I see what you’re saying, it’s just I’m a little sceptical about certain things working for beginners. I still believe that you should probably remain on a flat bench with a straight bar to get your bench press higher. In all honesty, I kinda find it hard to believe that me doing a push press on ME day would really help my bench. Would it really?

I don’t know, I guess I haven’t done it so I can’t comment that much. Just from a little I have read it does seem that people like Dave Tate and Jim Wendler push for beginners to stick to the main lifts even for ME. Just changing grips and board work too.

Also, how would you incorporate deadlifts? I mean, at least for the squat you are still squatting every week at a minimum. What about deadlift though? How often would you deadlift as you can only incorporate it on your ME day - or I suppose do a variation (RDL/SLDL etc.) for assistance work.

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Thank you.

I see what you’re saying, it’s just I’m a little sceptical about certain things working for beginners. I still believe that you should probably remain on a flat bench with a straight bar to get your bench press higher. In all honesty, I kinda find it hard to believe that me doing a push press on ME day would really help my bench. Would it really?

I don’t know, I guess I haven’t done it so I can’t comment that much. Just from a little I have read it does seem that people like Dave Tate and Jim Wendler push for beginners to stick to the main lifts even for ME. Just changing grips and board work too.

Also, how would you incorporate deadlifts? I mean, at least for the squat you are still squatting every week at a minimum. What about deadlift though? How often would you deadlift as you can only incorporate it on your ME day - or I suppose do a variation (RDL/SLDL etc.) for assistance work.[/quote]

A good way to think of this is that really all pressing movements are the same just move up and down the incline in an axis. Bench press is flat or 0 degrees. Incline is say 45 degrees. Push Press is 90 degrees. They’re all the same movement pattern just on different inclinations.

And Speed Pulls on DE days if you missed that. And you can use them or a variation like Deficits or rack pulls on ME day too.

Oh I’m sorry, so would you do either speed pulls or speed squats on DE days or both? How would you rotate them if the former?

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Oh I’m sorry, so would you do either speed pulls or speed squats on DE days or both? How would you rotate them if the former?[/quote]

Both. Not quite sure on STB’s recommendations based off the block but the common thing to do is finish your DE squatting then do 8 singles for speed pulls.

Okay, I have a problem. My dynamic effort days are so goddamn boring. What can I do to make them a little more interesting? My max effort days are always a blast and I actually enjoy going to the gym, but it’s the opposite on dynamic days.

Here’s what my workout would look like.

DE Upper

  1. DE Bench - 9x3
  2. Heavy triceps (3/4 board, rack lockouts, JM), work up to a 3-5 rep max
  3. Horizontal rows
  4. Shoulders
  5. Biceps

DE Lower

  1. DE Squats - 12/10x2, depending on what week it is.
  2. DE Deadlifts - 8x1
  3. Some type of heavy goodmorning
  4. Quads
  5. Abs

Should I switch up the intensity on DE days? Like I always go high volume/low intensity on ME days for my assistance work and I typically do the same for DE days as well. Should I go heavier on the DE days to make it a little more enjoyable?

CS

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Oh I’m sorry, so would you do either speed pulls or speed squats on DE days or both? How would you rotate them if the former?[/quote]

Both. Not quite sure on STB’s recommendations based off the block but the common thing to do is finish your DE squatting then do 8 singles for speed pulls.[/quote]

Speed pull every week, after dynamic squatting.

Accumulation Block- 15+ sets of singles with 40-55%, it doesnt matter, just go fast.
Intensification- 8+ sets of singles. Bar weight, band tensions, chain, and variaiton will all depend on weaknesses
Transformation- 8+ sets, around 50%, full ROM limited bands and chains, full speed.

As far as ME deadlifts, I get the most out of only pulling heavy once a month. Everyone is different in terms of rcovery and what they can handle but me, an 800+ puller, I am near death when I get done ME deadlifts. I do get in a ton of pulling volume throughout the month because I usually hit a heavy DL variaiton after ME Squatting and on some speed days. By heavy, I mean establishing a 6rm on something, like an RDL.

It’s fine that you are skeptical. I barely believe any of the shit I read on the internet. I am just hoping people get some programming ideas for being optimal in a meet. It doesn’t even have to be ‘Westside.’ But, good, smart programming is essential for success at a competition.

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
Okay, I have a problem. My dynamic effort days are so goddamn boring. What can I do to make them a little more interesting? My max effort days are always a blast and I actually enjoy going to the gym, but it’s the opposite on dynamic days.

Here’s what my workout would look like.

DE Upper

  1. DE Bench - 9x3
  2. Heavy triceps (3/4 board, rack lockouts, JM), work up to a 3-5 rep max
  3. Horizontal rows
  4. Shoulders
  5. Biceps

DE Lower

  1. DE Squats - 12/10x2, depending on what week it is.
  2. DE Deadlifts - 8x1
  3. Some type of heavy goodmorning
  4. Quads
  5. Abs

Should I switch up the intensity on DE days? Like I always go high volume/low intensity on ME days for my assistance work and I typically do the same for DE days as well. Should I go heavier on the DE days to make it a little more enjoyable?

CS[/quote]

I get like this too. Varying up the squat/bench/dl variations help. You could always take two weeks and do a mini-strength-speed wave. Something like

Week 1:
Squats- Load up about 50% in band tension and 40% in bar weight and do 5-8 sets of doubles
Bench- Throw another mini band on or add a couple extra sets of chains and do 5-8 triples

Week 2:
Squats- 2 sets like last week, then take small jumps and work up to a max double
Bench- Same as squats.

Obviously you would need to chill out on the max efforts during this time or you will kill yourself. Going heavy on speed day sometimes breaks up the monotony of doing a billion sets.

I dont even follow Westside, but this thread is fucking awesome and full of great info for anyone interested in strength.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Oh I’m sorry, so would you do either speed pulls or speed squats on DE days or both? How would you rotate them if the former?[/quote]

Both. Not quite sure on STB’s recommendations based off the block but the common thing to do is finish your DE squatting then do 8 singles for speed pulls.[/quote]

Speed pull every week, after dynamic squatting.

Accumulation Block- 15+ sets of singles with 40-55%, it doesnt matter, just go fast.
Intensification- 8+ sets of singles. Bar weight, band tensions, chain, and variaiton will all depend on weaknesses
Transformation- 8+ sets, around 50%, full ROM limited bands and chains, full speed.

As far as ME deadlifts, I get the most out of only pulling heavy once a month. Everyone is different in terms of rcovery and what they can handle but me, an 800+ puller, I am near death when I get done ME deadlifts. I do get in a ton of pulling volume throughout the month because I usually hit a heavy DL variaiton after ME Squatting and on some speed days. By heavy, I mean establishing a 6rm on something, like an RDL.

It’s fine that you are skeptical. I barely believe any of the shit I read on the internet. I am just hoping people get some programming ideas for being optimal in a meet. It doesn’t even have to be ‘Westside.’ But, good, smart programming is essential for success at a competition.[/quote]

Should I really do 15+ singles of speed pulls if I’m planning on doing 20 sets of DE squatting during the accumulation block?

I did 20 doubles for speed squats and 20 singles for deadlifts I wasnt in as much pain as I thought and I didnt feel like I was slow on my last sets of speed pulls

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
Okay, I have a problem. My dynamic effort days are so goddamn boring. What can I do to make them a little more interesting? My max effort days are always a blast and I actually enjoy going to the gym, but it’s the opposite on dynamic days.

Here’s what my workout would look like.

DE Upper

  1. DE Bench - 9x3
  2. Heavy triceps (3/4 board, rack lockouts, JM), work up to a 3-5 rep max
  3. Horizontal rows
  4. Shoulders
  5. Biceps

DE Lower

  1. DE Squats - 12/10x2, depending on what week it is.
  2. DE Deadlifts - 8x1
  3. Some type of heavy goodmorning
  4. Quads
  5. Abs

Should I switch up the intensity on DE days? Like I always go high volume/low intensity on ME days for my assistance work and I typically do the same for DE days as well. Should I go heavier on the DE days to make it a little more enjoyable?

CS[/quote]

I get like this too. Varying up the squat/bench/dl variations help. You could always take two weeks and do a mini-strength-speed wave. Something like

Week 1:
Squats- Load up about 50% in band tension and 40% in bar weight and do 5-8 sets of doubles
Bench- Throw another mini band on or add a couple extra sets of chains and do 5-8 triples

Week 2:
Squats- 2 sets like last week, then take small jumps and work up to a max double
Bench- Same as squats.

Obviously you would need to chill out on the max efforts during this time or you will kill yourself. Going heavy on speed day sometimes breaks up the monotony of doing a billion sets.[/quote]

Thank you so much. I need a little variety. I don’t have access to any fancy bars as of right now, but I will within a month or two. But once I finish my current ME rotation, I’ll do what you suggested. And for the ME days, I should probably go for a 3-5 RM.

CS

I’ve been reading and re-reading this thread, and I see that I need to get in a lot of GPP and technique. So if I’m jumping into the Westside Method and need lots of GPP, how many weeks in a row can I do the Lactate Tolerance Training? Can the whole accumulation block be 20+ sets of DE work or should I have a speed strength wave in my accumulation block?