The Westside Method Thread

Training Powerlifting
301

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Oh I’m sorry, so would you do either speed pulls or speed squats on DE days or both? How would you rotate them if the former?[/quote]

Both. Not quite sure on STB’s recommendations based off the block but the common thing to do is finish your DE squatting then do 8 singles for speed pulls.[/quote]

Speed pull every week, after dynamic squatting.

Accumulation Block- 15+ sets of singles with 40-55%, it doesnt matter, just go fast.
Intensification- 8+ sets of singles. Bar weight, band tensions, chain, and variaiton will all depend on weaknesses
Transformation- 8+ sets, around 50%, full ROM limited bands and chains, full speed.

As far as ME deadlifts, I get the most out of only pulling heavy once a month. Everyone is different in terms of rcovery and what they can handle but me, an 800+ puller, I am near death when I get done ME deadlifts. I do get in a ton of pulling volume throughout the month because I usually hit a heavy DL variaiton after ME Squatting and on some speed days. By heavy, I mean establishing a 6rm on something, like an RDL.

It’s fine that you are skeptical. I barely believe any of the shit I read on the internet. I am just hoping people get some programming ideas for being optimal in a meet. It doesn’t even have to be ‘Westside.’ But, good, smart programming is essential for success at a competition.[/quote]

Should I really do 15+ singles of speed pulls if I’m planning on doing 20 sets of DE squatting during the accumulation block?[/quote]

You don’t have to do anything.

The whole point of the block is to increase your GPP. Doing a very high volume of work on squats and deads, keeping track of the time it took to do the volume, and trying to beat it week to week, will give you quantifiable data for improvements in work and power. Also, this is Lactate Tolerance Training. It will not only get you in squatting and deadlifting shape, it will eventually turn into a mental fortitude exercise. Most of the time, when I am in this block, I will do speed work for deadlifts like a normal DE day, 50% for 8-10 singles. This is because I have been really pushing the weight on the squats and using squat variations that more mimic a deadlift (like the SSB and above parallel box squats). I am doing this because my squat sucks.

Nothing is set in stone. These are all just guidelines to help people figure out what is best for them.

302

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
Okay, I have a problem. My dynamic effort days are so goddamn boring. What can I do to make them a little more interesting? My max effort days are always a blast and I actually enjoy going to the gym, but it’s the opposite on dynamic days.

Here’s what my workout would look like.

DE Upper

  1. DE Bench - 9x3
  2. Heavy triceps (3/4 board, rack lockouts, JM), work up to a 3-5 rep max
  3. Horizontal rows
  4. Shoulders
  5. Biceps

DE Lower

  1. DE Squats - 12/10x2, depending on what week it is.
  2. DE Deadlifts - 8x1
  3. Some type of heavy goodmorning
  4. Quads
  5. Abs

Should I switch up the intensity on DE days? Like I always go high volume/low intensity on ME days for my assistance work and I typically do the same for DE days as well. Should I go heavier on the DE days to make it a little more enjoyable?

CS[/quote]

I get like this too. Varying up the squat/bench/dl variations help. You could always take two weeks and do a mini-strength-speed wave. Something like

Week 1:
Squats- Load up about 50% in band tension and 40% in bar weight and do 5-8 sets of doubles
Bench- Throw another mini band on or add a couple extra sets of chains and do 5-8 triples

Week 2:
Squats- 2 sets like last week, then take small jumps and work up to a max double
Bench- Same as squats.

Obviously you would need to chill out on the max efforts during this time or you will kill yourself. Going heavy on speed day sometimes breaks up the monotony of doing a billion sets.[/quote]

Thank you so much. I need a little variety. I don’t have access to any fancy bars as of right now, but I will within a month or two. But once I finish my current ME rotation, I’ll do what you suggested. And for the ME days, I should probably go for a 3-5 RM.

CS
[/quote]

Keep in closer to 5rm and don’t got to failure. Still do something heavy but it is very easy to feel terrible when doing a strength speed wave.

303

[quote]Vladamir wrote:
I did 20 doubles for speed squats and 20 singles for deadlifts I wasnt in as much pain as I thought and I didnt feel like I was slow on my last sets of speed pulls [/quote]

Awesome. Next time around, either change the variaitons, or add 20lbs and try to get them done in the same amount of time.

304

[quote]Razamataz wrote:
I’ve been reading and re-reading this thread, and I see that I need to get in a lot of GPP and technique. So if I’m jumping into the Westside Method and need lots of GPP, how many weeks in a row can I do the Lactate Tolerance Training? Can the whole accumulation block be 20+ sets of DE work or should I have a speed strength wave in my accumulation block?

[/quote]

Good question. I don’t think anyone has talked about this yet. Earlier I reccommended something like 6 weeks of accumulation and 2-3 weeks of intesnsification for beginners. For that six weeks, I would suggest only doing 2-3 weeks of LTT. Then use a regular speed strength wave with limited bands and chains for the following weeks, until the intensification block.

In my experience, people can adpat to the super high volume pretty fast.

305

You kind of answered this already but you also added in many things that I don’t have.

Let’s assume a lifter doesn’t have access to board or chains or bands or things like that. Just very plain stuff - bars, power rack, bench that can go to incline and decline.

With that in mind, can Westside still work effectively as the ME lifts wouldn’t have MUCH variety? For example, for squats/deadlifts you could do rack pulls (different heights), deficit pulls, RDL, SLDL, GMs, pause squats. I can’t think of much else really. Would you say that is enough?

Similarly for bench all you got is different grips, incline/decline, floor press and I could get kinda creative and use things to mimic board/foam presses but wouldn’t be as good I imagine.

With that in mind, would it still work just as fine? As a beginner, I’m assuming that the ME lifts should be closer to a real squat, deadlift and bench as opposed to elite lifters. Just from the little I have read that Tate and Wendler seem to accept.

306

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
You kind of answered this already but you also added in many things that I don’t have.

Let’s assume a lifter doesn’t have access to board or chains or bands or things like that. Just very plain stuff - bars, power rack, bench that can go to incline and decline.

With that in mind, can Westside still work effectively as the ME lifts wouldn’t have MUCH variety? For example, for squats/deadlifts you could do rack pulls (different heights), deficit pulls, RDL, SLDL, GMs, pause squats. I can’t think of much else really. Would you say that is enough?

Similarly for bench all you got is different grips, incline/decline, floor press and I could get kinda creative and use things to mimic board/foam presses but wouldn’t be as good I imagine.

With that in mind, would it still work just as fine? As a beginner, I’m assuming that the ME lifts should be closer to a real squat, deadlift and bench as opposed to elite lifters. Just from the little I have read that Tate and Wendler seem to accept.[/quote]

You have to remember that chains and bands have only been around a short while. Westside and other gyms went for YEARS without them and still made gains. Yes you can do this type of training WITHOUT chains and bands. There is still a whole mess of ME lifts you can do without them. Here are some examples:

Bench: 3+5 rep max bench, Close Grip Bench, Inc Bench, pin press, dead stop bench, board press, fat grip press. Right there is 8 different movements, and thats only using one pin placement for pin presses.

Squat+Deadlift: Wide, Medium, Close Stance GM, Pin Presses (right here is atleast 4 different records) Wide Stance box squats, Close stance low box squats, Zercher from the floor, Zerchers from the rach, high bar back squats…

As you can see there are tons of ME lifts you can do without bands and chains. Remember, those are just tools, they arent the program

307

I am at a commercial gym and a college gym and I was able to make a list of all the possible max effort workouts. Here is what I found.

squat/deadlift- Front Squat, free squat, box squats at different hieghts, wide good morning, close stance good mornings, rack pulls, sumo DL, conventional DL, trap bar DL. Granted some of these are competition lifts but that is 9 lifts off the top of my head.

Bench- CG floor press, floor press, incline bench, decline bench, close grip on all bench variations, SOHP, push press, pin press, illegal wide BP (Louie SImmons says use it for a 6 rep max and it can be like a deload). Seated overhead pin press, then DB Bench(20+ reps good for a deload.)

308

Thanks for that Vlad.

Out of curiosity, how often would you do a pull rather than push on the ME day (for squat/dead ME I mean)?

Also, as a raw lifter are there any changes that need to be made? Louie answers a question similar to this by saying that there isn’t, but quite a few others say that it doesn’t work as well if you are raw lifter. I don’t see why that would be the case, so would be nice if you could clear that up.

309

How often do any of you use the trap bar deadlift for ME lower work? The rack in our gym makes me a little wary doing pin pulls with ~500 lbs. Not that that is much weight but just that I’m not sure if the rack can handle that much too often.

Also has anybody messed around with snatch grip DL variations for ME? You would have to use straps but from the times I’ve done them just as supplementary work (~8RM) it has torn my upper back up.

310

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Oh I’m sorry, so would you do either speed pulls or speed squats on DE days or both? How would you rotate them if the former?[/quote]

Both. Not quite sure on STB’s recommendations based off the block but the common thing to do is finish your DE squatting then do 8 singles for speed pulls.[/quote]

Speed pull every week, after dynamic squatting.

Accumulation Block- 15+ sets of singles with 40-55%, it doesnt matter, just go fast.
Intensification- 8+ sets of singles. Bar weight, band tensions, chain, and variaiton will all depend on weaknesses
Transformation- 8+ sets, around 50%, full ROM limited bands and chains, full speed.

As far as ME deadlifts, I get the most out of only pulling heavy once a month. Everyone is different in terms of rcovery and what they can handle but me, an 800+ puller, I am near death when I get done ME deadlifts. I do get in a ton of pulling volume throughout the month because I usually hit a heavy DL variaiton after ME Squatting and on some speed days. By heavy, I mean establishing a 6rm on something, like an RDL.

It’s fine that you are skeptical. I barely believe any of the shit I read on the internet. I am just hoping people get some programming ideas for being optimal in a meet. It doesn’t even have to be ‘Westside.’ But, good, smart programming is essential for success at a competition.[/quote]

Should I really do 15+ singles of speed pulls if I’m planning on doing 20 sets of DE squatting during the accumulation block?[/quote]

You don’t have to do anything.

The whole point of the block is to increase your GPP. Doing a very high volume of work on squats and deads, keeping track of the time it took to do the volume, and trying to beat it week to week, will give you quantifiable data for improvements in work and power. Also, this is Lactate Tolerance Training. It will not only get you in squatting and deadlifting shape, it will eventually turn into a mental fortitude exercise. Most of the time, when I am in this block, I will do speed work for deadlifts like a normal DE day, 50% for 8-10 singles. This is because I have been really pushing the weight on the squats and using squat variations that more mimic a deadlift (like the SSB and above parallel box squats). I am doing this because my squat sucks.

Nothing is set in stone. These are all just guidelines to help people figure out what is best for them. [/quote]

Ok I think I understand really its all about accomplishing the goal of the block.

311

[quote]cscsDPT17 wrote:
How often do any of you use the trap bar deadlift for ME lower work? The rack in our gym makes me a little wary doing pin pulls with ~500 lbs. Not that that is much weight but just that I’m not sure if the rack can handle that much too often.

Also has anybody messed around with snatch grip DL variations for ME? You would have to use straps but from the times I’ve done them just as supplementary work (~8RM) it has torn my upper back up.
[/quote]

I am pretty sure the trap bar and rack/pin pulls focus on different muscle groups. I think trap bar is a quad dominant movement while rack pulls are posterior chain.

312

I do SOHP for 6 reps as my high intensity shoulder exercise for assistance, Wendler suggested that in his article. Since I think illegal wide bench will help me out for can I just do illegal wide bench instead? Does IWB hit your shoulders?

313

Well I know it is more quad dominant but I would argue its no more quad dominant than a squat. Since ME Lower covers DL and Squat then a trap bar deadlift that is more quad dominant would perhaps be in the middle of squat and DL and carryover to both? Still work the same muscles used but in a different way and also take pressure off of your back for a different stimulus? For me my glutes and lower back are the strong part of my lifts. I can’t recall a time where I’ve lost my arch on DL and my glutes are massive esp compared to my legs

314

I can’t say I’ve had much carryover using trap-bar to my squat or conventional DL. I’ll use the Hammer Strength trap bar machine every now and then for some upper back work but the quad dominance and shoulders being back more just have too different of a groove to be a mainstay in my training.

315

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I can’t say I’ve had much carryover using trap-bar to my squat or conventional DL. I’ll use the Hammer Strength trap bar machine every now and then for some upper back work but the quad dominance and shoulders being back more just have too different of a groove to be a mainstay in my training. [/quote]

Personally I’ve never known anybody to get anything out of the trap bar deadlift. Like you said, it’s just a different groove. There are plenty better of DL variations, even with limited equipment.

316

[quote]Chicksan wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
You kind of answered this already but you also added in many things that I don’t have.

Let’s assume a lifter doesn’t have access to board or chains or bands or things like that. Just very plain stuff - bars, power rack, bench that can go to incline and decline.

With that in mind, can Westside still work effectively as the ME lifts wouldn’t have MUCH variety? For example, for squats/deadlifts you could do rack pulls (different heights), deficit pulls, RDL, SLDL, GMs, pause squats. I can’t think of much else really. Would you say that is enough?

Similarly for bench all you got is different grips, incline/decline, floor press and I could get kinda creative and use things to mimic board/foam presses but wouldn’t be as good I imagine.

With that in mind, would it still work just as fine? As a beginner, I’m assuming that the ME lifts should be closer to a real squat, deadlift and bench as opposed to elite lifters. Just from the little I have read that Tate and Wendler seem to accept.[/quote]

You have to remember that chains and bands have only been around a short while. Westside and other gyms went for YEARS without them and still made gains. Yes you can do this type of training WITHOUT chains and bands. There is still a whole mess of ME lifts you can do without them. Here are some examples:

Bench: 3+5 rep max bench, Close Grip Bench, Inc Bench, pin press, dead stop bench, board press, fat grip press. Right there is 8 different movements, and thats only using one pin placement for pin presses.

Squat+Deadlift: Wide, Medium, Close Stance GM, Pin Presses (right here is atleast 4 different records) Wide Stance box squats, Close stance low box squats, Zercher from the floor, Zerchers from the rach, high bar back squats…

As you can see there are tons of ME lifts you can do without bands and chains. Remember, those are just tools, they arent the program[/quote]

Also keep in mind, when you change the grip or the foot position on a lift, you are doing a completely different exercsie. Yes, the program can still be very effective without bands and chains. Will you get as strong as you could if you had these things available? Absolutely not but you will get stronger than you are right now. Most gyms will not have a problem with you bringing some boards and bands in. I would suggest investing in some of each.

317

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Thanks for that Vlad.

Out of curiosity, how often would you do a pull rather than push on the ME day (for squat/dead ME I mean)?

Also, as a raw lifter are there any changes that need to be made? Louie answers a question similar to this by saying that there isn’t, but quite a few others say that it doesn’t work as well if you are raw lifter. I don’t see why that would be the case, so would be nice if you could clear that up.[/quote]

The only real change you need to make is to do more free squatting (less box squatting) for your Max Effort squats. Leading up to the weeks before the meet, do your last 2-3 ME Squat variaitons without a box. Also, more full range of motion work on the bench.

People who say this doesn’t work for raw lifting either haven’t ever done the program in it’s entirety, did everything all wrong, or are just trying to be an asshole. I just recently competed raw a few weeks ago after doing a few months of just Westside. My total ended up being 21st all time for 308. It was my first time competing 275+ (280) and I was coming off a torn hamstring. So, something worked.

318

[quote]cscsDPT17 wrote:
Well I know it is more quad dominant but I would argue its no more quad dominant than a squat. Since ME Lower covers DL and Squat then a trap bar deadlift that is more quad dominant would perhaps be in the middle of squat and DL and carryover to both? Still work the same muscles used but in a different way and also take pressure off of your back for a different stimulus? For me my glutes and lower back are the strong part of my lifts. I can’t recall a time where I’ve lost my arch on DL and my glutes are massive esp compared to my legs[/quote]

You can cheat on the trap bar. You can set the COG of the bar on the middle of your foot. You can’t do this with a BB because your legs are in the way. This makes the lift more similar to a leg press without core support than a dl or a squat. That being said, it could be a good variaiton if you have a weak lower back. I think it would be much better suited for assistance work and you would be much better off sticking with barbell movements for ME work.

319

STB. Thank you for the response earlier in the thread in regards prioritizing my power clean. I will be positing a video soon for further criticism. In the mean time I’ve really been making great gains on a set up inspired by wendler in his Max Effort Method manual.

I’m using the concept of high/low intensity triceps and back work. Here’s what I’ve got

DE Upper Day
A. Speed Bench 6x2 @ 50-60% (regular or bottom up)
B. (pick a special exercise, or cycle through 4 weeks)

  1. floor press - work up to approx. 90-92% of reg. bench max
  2. 2 board press - work up to approx. 102-110% of reg. bench max
  3. close grip bench press - work up to approx. 85-90% of reg. bench. max
  4. bench press w/chains or bands - work to 100%

C. face-pulls, reverse band flys, chins, pull downs(what ever doesn’t leave my back sore on ME day)

ME Upper Day
A. Regular Bench Press

  • work up to a 5 RM for 3 weeks (3 different methods of intensity changing)
  • work up to a 3 RM for 3 weeks (3 different methods of intensity changing)
  • work up to a 1 RM for 3 weeks (3 different methods of volume changing)

B. DB pressing (flat, incline, floor or military) 8-10 reps
OR a big but boring progressive overload cycle at a way lower percentage.

C. skull crushers, various push downs, push ups or dips w/weight for a lot of reps

D. Heavy back work

  • barbell rows
  • kroc rows
  • Shrugs and grip work are on lower days.

Another variation I’m playing with depending on shoulder health and my weak spots includes more direct vertical pressing in conjunction with speed work. One way is more indirect shoulder work using horizontal variations and special exercises for the competition bench. This way includes more direct/heavy shoulder work with speed work, and uses the special exercises/corrective work as a max effort cycle

DE Day
A. Speed Bench - 6x2 50-60% of max

B. Vertical Pressing

  1. seated press
  2. standing strict press
  3. high incline press
  4. push press (slight leg drive)

A. ME Work

  1. floor press - work up to approx. 90-92% of reg. bench max
  2. 2 board press - work up to approx. 102-110% of reg. bench max
  3. close grip bench press - work up to approx. 85-90% of reg. bench. max
  4. bench press w/chains or bands - work to 100%

I think this is still using some west-side concepts, but with the help of reading through Jims max effort manual, I’ve given myself some percentage based goals/kinda and progressions. (simplified shit)
I’m also incorporating some active rest on max effort work; Whether it be back work or plyometric push ups and med. ball stuff… as well as some easy HFS (high frequency strength work) ideas from Indigo guys.

Any thoughts, comments and discussion on my set up would be greatly appreciated.

320

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Thanks for that Vlad.

Out of curiosity, how often would you do a pull rather than push on the ME day (for squat/dead ME I mean)?

Also, as a raw lifter are there any changes that need to be made? Louie answers a question similar to this by saying that there isn’t, but quite a few others say that it doesn’t work as well if you are raw lifter. I don’t see why that would be the case, so would be nice if you could clear that up.[/quote]

The only real change you need to make is to do more free squatting (less box squatting) for your Max Effort squats. Leading up to the weeks before the meet, do your last 2-3 ME Squat variaitons without a box. Also, more full range of motion work on the bench.

People who say this doesn’t work for raw lifting either haven’t ever done the program in it’s entirety, did everything all wrong, or are just trying to be an asshole. I just recently competed raw a few weeks ago after doing a few months of just Westside. My total ended up being 21st all time for 308. It was my first time competing 275+ (280) and I was coming off a torn hamstring. So, something worked.[/quote]

What would DE lower day look like without box squats? Also for bench variations would it be mostly band/chains using the full ROM, any others you recommend? I don’t know if the answer to this question varies between raw and geared but how often is it okay do the basic lift (not a variation) on your ME day?