The War on Drugs

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1889

They would be free not to attend. Doing it in public let’s people know, “we are a serious people! If you wish to do as this man did, you’re next!” Letting the hanged person be in the town square for a few days would reinforce this and many criminals and would-be criminals would be changing their tunes, as well as let law-abiding citizens know they’re residing in an orderly place. I even think we’d see a reduction in tough guys and wannabe tough guys strutting around.

One should be able to think of why seeing such an event, or the swoop of a guillotine, sends a message of “game over” and how they’re very different than some guy getting lethal injection behind closed doors!

Thanks for the compliment. It’s a five-year old photograph. I keep such photos on here so that I don’t appear as a do-nothing when I speak of training and nutrition. I look more like a middle-aged Men’s Health guy now and train like one too. I highly doubt I’d be IFBB CP material.

1890

Reintroduction of the branks would likely lead to a drastic reduction of Tik Tok activity and content from our news and entertainment media.

Much of the crime in our society is committed by repeat offenders. They’re welcome to get repeatedly punished and have the severity of punishment increased.

For what you write one might get the impression we should do nothing with these offenders and simply let them.l be either public nuisances, actual dangers to others, and/or let innocent victims have no justice or to have a non-serious, silly society with a precedent of no expectation on behavior, just tolerance for drug-addled morons and predators.

There’s a notion of some people that poor, homeless, and/or addicted people are salt-of-the-earth folks who fell on hard times and disaster. While that is true for some of them, and empathy, support, and understanding is warranted for their cases, and might even help then improve their lot, the rest are in their positions because they’re impulsive, careless, predatory, and parasitic bastards. I believe I have enough experience with them to know this.

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1891

This didn’t work in the Phillipines.

I understand we are referring to perceived utopian ideals, however such a construct would lead to widespread international condemnation. An environment that enables hard drug use has less to do with the availability of drugs and more to do with the cultural paradigm a society is enveloped within.

The Netherlands has a very low rate of drug addiction yet ironically it is very easy to buy drugs in the Netherlands. I’d also argue one can look at the data pertaining to the impact police raids, prison sentencing and even capitol punishment has on perceived drug availability/rates of use. Aside from Singapore, a country with some very unique dynamics… It makes little to no difference.

A very effective way to deter drug use (in my opinion) is to try promote an environment that enables it’s inhabitants to live out a happy, healthy lifestyle. The world isn’t sunshine and rainbows… But no one should have to live in a neighbourhood where you can hear gunshots going off every night, no one should have to grow up in an orphanage going from foster home to foster home…

You can’t eliminate drug use… That’s never going to happen, but you can dramatically reduce the havok narcotics impose when they tear through an unsuspecting community.

To note, a guillotine is an instant death. Lethal injection takes a little while, and if it goes badly the process of death can be excruciatingly painful. Just a fun fact.

I think it represents more than you recognise. Probably a 50/50 split. Those with serious underlying personality disorders are far more likely to become drug addicts. Narcissistic subtypes, psychopaths, bipolar, those with BPD and ADHD are far, far more likely to experiment with drugs. However I also tend to believe many turn to drugs to dull pain (physical or emotional), to try forget about responsibilities etc.

If you could get rid of 50% of societies drug addicts it’d make a world of difference.

You’ve misinterpreted my post. I think we need to take it on a case by case basis in a similar manner as to how Portugal does it. There are some people who take drugs occasionally in a manner that doesn’t directly impact anyone (aside from the user). If this is the case… Say Jimmy has been caught with one tablet of E, he has taken it once two and a half years ago… What is the justification for putting him in prison? How has he done anything wrong? He isn’t selling it to kids… He isn’t giving it to anyone else…

He doesn’t need rehab either… A fine should suffice, and even then provided steeve is of age and is going to a venue only populated by adults I don’t even think that is necessary.

Now let’s say Joe has a cocaine habit, during one of his weekend warrior adventures he gropes a random stranger and punches a bouncer. Joe is subsequently taken to the ground. Cops are called… Cops find cocaine on him… Fine… Jail it is then

I’m not opposed to penalizing drunken misconduct either depending on the severity as I’ve just seen so much of it… Numerous times it has led to near death experiences for the participants involved.

For this… Sure… impose punishment, however that isn’t the initial argument. I was asking “what do you prefer? Prison or forced rehabilitation?”

This is why I say “take it on a case by case basis”. I view alcoholism through a similar lens. Encourage the individual to get help, if they step out of line and end up hurting people… Throw the book at them

You can’t excuse predatory or deviant behaviour, “I was drunk/high” means nothing to me as there are plenty who can get drunk without starting fights, plenty who can get high without turning violent etc.

I would like to point out I am not condoning or encouraging drug use here. Rather I’d like to see society tackle the matter differently as opposed to our current “if we turn a blind eye and arrest as many people as we can it might go away”.

It isn’t going away.. it’s getting worse, and I’m sure the pandemic hasn’t helped…

Another example… Bill has an issue with drinking. One night he gets too drunk and throws up inside a public venue and urinates (yes… I’ve seen this happen) in the sink before getting into a first fight with a bouncer asking him to leave. Bill breaks a bottle over the bouncers head before getting taken down… Jail… No excuse (the fight part didn’t happen, added that in for fun).

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1892

I am not knowledgeable about the Philippines. Capital and corporal punishment was practiced all throughout the West.

There is no Utopia. Every legal system has had and will have holes in it.

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1893

But we can create one and pretend that it exists!

1894

Capitol punishment is still practiced in quite a few western societies. I’m not against it if we refer to extreme circumstances

Why should a serial child rapist, a serial killer or a large scale fentanyl distributor be given the light of day? Why should a single CENT of my taxable income go towards housing someone like this? However I’ve heard the latter example (large scale fentanyl producers) never consisted of one individual at the top. Rather, China was a mass producer/exporter of fentanyl for a while (no longer). Factory workers would ship out the product, likely oblivious to what they were actually sending out… Could be wrong though.

Some are beyond rehabilitation, beyond repair and these individuals represent dangers to society. One could argue locking them up in a maximum security prison until they die of old age is far more inhumane than a quick death… I say it’s a waste of money.

However you’d have to be absolutely SURE you’ve got the right person.

Leaving a body to rot in public for a few days is a biohazard btw (you mentioned letting the corpse hang in public)

If you don’t mind me asking @BrickHead you said you were torn over cannabis legality. Why is it that you are potentially okay with pot? What makes pot different?

I agree with you… As I believe pot tends to be considerably more benign relative to most recreational drugs when consumed occasionally

I’m also a fan of the impact legalisation may have on demand from cartels/criminal syndicates. Cartels tend to make a LOT of money from cannabis, cocaine and heroin. I can’t reasonably see cocaine/heroin being fully legalised and sold in stores… But cannabis could be.

I believe cannabis is legal where you live. Do people use it in public or is it out of public eye? What are the laws surrounding it? In say… ACT, you can smoke cannabis in your own home… But do so in public and you’ll likely cop a 500$+ fine. In Israel you can smoke cannabis in your own home or possess one plant, but public use or possession = large fine

However in Israel the laws surrounding public use aren’t enforced, wherein they are in the ACT

1895

Does etc include prescription drugs and those who market and prescribe them?

1896

Hmmm… we’ve had public executions in our history. We still have the death penalty and of course prison. Crime has been a constant throughout. If punishment were a deterrent, no one would be getting punished.

1897

I mean… The guys from Purdue who purposefully got millions hooked on Oxycodone? I somewhat agree with the idea these people might deserve the death penalty, though I’d never wish to see this actually put in place.

I’d prefer to watch them have income/assets taken away

1898

I don’t know about a justice system in which you can buy yourself out of a hanging.

1899

Just in today.

Apparently this doesn’t stay behind closed doors, as I said, and sets and awful precedent.

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1900

However safe injection sites do work… It may be a sore sight to the eyes, however they do lower the rates of overdose./death

They also tend to promote rehabilitation to customers who frequent, resulting in some kicking the habit when they otherwise wouldn’t have

Tossing vested morality aside, the data re safe injection sites is rather positive in nature. We have one in the city I was born in, the suburb by which it is situated within is known to be a bad area… Just don’t take kids to the vicinity near the safe injection site… It’s not hard

It should be noted, this safe injection site popped up in an area that was known to have a drug problem of monumental proportions. I’ve been to this area and it was at one point common to see people shooting up on park benches in full view of everyone.

Safe injection site means they’re doing that inside… And away from people…

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/19/im-living-proof-how-melbournes-drug-injecting-room-has-changed-and-saved-lives

Covers injection rooms in Victoria/NSW

1901

I don’t see why adjustments and coddling is needed for these people. Why would I have to adjust where I go with my kids instead of them adjusting their ways? Why is the onus on others?

1902

Mexico doesn’t have death penalty iirc.
And drug lord after drug lord get busted out of prison. Should shoot these purveyors of death while “attempting” to arrest.

I have a brother that has disrupted much of the family with his addiction. I have zero compassion for dealers.

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1903

It’s not about coddling, it’s about reducing the burden drug use imposes upon a society.

The dynamics of addiction are complex, misunderstood. You talk of parasitic bastards who are addicts… Is it a chicken or an egg situation?

Of the drug users I’ve known/know, the ones who got hooked were typically those who were trying to self medicate. Be it to repress painful memories, forget about the present or to deal with traits imposed by an underlying personality disorders.

Without safe injection sites, you have people shooting up on park benches. In the areas bad enough to warrant these sites popping up, policing the problem is out of the question as it is just too widespread. Imagine sending 10% of the population within a particular suburb to jail

You mention your kids, and I’ll respond. In NSW, the injection site was set up in the heart of Kings Cross. Kings Cross at the time of this site being set up was the “red light district” of Sydney. It was a seedly, drug addled cesspool of booze, prostitution, drugs and violence. Tourists and residents alike would come to king’s Cross and party the weekend away. You don’t necessarily have to alter your behaviour as this isn’t a place you’d frequent to begin with.

I’ve alluded to this before whe we have talked about graphic content in the media, adult films and the likes… you’ve got kids, adolescents and adults. The entire world needn’t revolve around what is or isn’t acceptable for a child to see as adults and adolescents are not children.

You’d have to have been the worst parent in the world to take a kid to king’s cross (pre lockout laws kings Cross)
Kings Cross has been gentrified over the past two decades, and that is probably for the better (minus the public, Orwellian strip searches)

The prospect of a safe injection site centre has little to do with trying to encourage drug use. Rather the centres provide clean supplies (reduce transmission of blood bourne disease, beneficial to everyone), gives the user a place to stay when they nod out/tweak out (no spazzing in public), provides VERY easy access to mental health counselling, rehabilitation and opiate substitution therapy (eventually wean off).

What’s more, it dramatically decreases morbidity associated with drug use. You might not like the idea of hard drug use, neither do I… but I don’t think someone deserves to die because they’re an addict. You are looking at this through the lens of "how can I protect my kids’', however this has nothing to do with your family. Your family doesn’t ever need to be exposed to this.

You can’t “just stop” drinking, you can’t "just stop’ smoking crack or using heroin. Alcohol withdrawal can kill, heroin withdrawal will make you feel like you’ve been doused in gasoline and lit on fire. If you want to wean off, these centres in particular will provide you ease of access to doctors that will help you do so.

I don’t think anyone in their right mind gets up one day and thinks “you know, I could really go.for some crack!” What drives a person to this? What makes someone this desperate to escape?

I wholeheartedly agree with you in that drug dealing is a criminal issue. Drug USE however… I don’t buy that, I think it’s a public health crisis that is getting worse and worse… and enforced isolation/on and off lockdowns surely aren’t going to help

Mexico also has entire towns run by cartels… mass political corruption. The reason I’m theoretically okay with the prospect of putting large scale distributors to death isn’t inherently due to the drugs; but due to the other nefarious shit alongside the drugs they’ve involved in

Let’s say you’ve got a distributor who

  • peddles coke, methamphetamine and heroin
  • is involved with sex trafficking (not uncommon)
  • is involved with gang related violence, murder and mayhem
  • is involved with arms trafficking

This is by all means an individual with callous disregard towards human life. This is an individual who is beyond reproach, who has directly been the cause of so much suffering…

I don’t like the idea of putting someone to death for drug distribution alone as people CAN say no to drugs. The dealer offered you the heroin, but you still chose to purchase and consume it.

1904

Then we’re at an impasse again. I still stand by my ideas about punishment for the three groups I mentioned a few days ago.

1905

However the terminology you used was subject to interpretation.

For the recreational user and/or addict you specified “fines, jail time or rehabilitation”

There’s a pretty large gap between prison time and a fine. Are you referring to the circumstance by which the individual is found in?

Say Chad drops acid in his own home with a friend and is caught, he doesn’t have kids at home… fine

Say Steeve takes a valium without a prescription after a hard week of work and gets a REALLY good nap in.

Joe takes methamphetamine, but isn’t an addict and goes to teach kindergarten… prison?

Is this what you refer to regarding “case by case”? If so, then I’d agree, except I don’t believe Chad or Steeve should be fined. Why are they getting in trouble for doing this out of public eye?

I’d suggest looking into the benefits and pitfalls associated with safe injection sites. Not articles covering concerned parents and moral outrage. I can link academic literature if you like. Injection centres aren’t new… they’ve been around since the 90’s and they typically mediate positive outcomes.

These centres actually have a fairly high turnover rate, they are good at what they do… making sure people don’t die and ironically getting people off of drugs.

Your state (NYC) has cannabis dispensaries… don’t take your kid to one. If NYC has a site for drug addicts (likely situated within a bad area to begin with)… once again, don’t take your kid there

I’d argue the vast majority of those experimenting with recreational drugs (I can link literature to prove this) aren’t addicts. They’re young adults aged 18-25 who smoke a joint or pop a pill once in a blue moon. Provided they don’t make a nuisance of themselves, I don’t see how you or I have the right to say "you can’t do that’’ provided the individuals aren’t becoming a public nuisance.

Even then… public drunkenness is legal in quite a few Australian states, and I’ve seen public drunkenness eventuate with guys lying down in puddles of their own blood, vomit, urine or a combination of all three… out of everything… drinking culture was the variable that really put me off partying… that and I thought it was a waste of time. I’ll go out in a limb and assume you don’t believe this legalisation is acceptable though.

As to the recreational user… sure, it’s a waste of time and it isn’t healthy; but at the same time it isn’t the end of the world. If you think someone trying ecstacy once or twice is the end of the world i’d like for you to extrapolate (though I don’t believe you think this). I’d like to point out I’ve never actually tried it, not to say I drew a hard line against it or anything. However at this point in my life I’d never go out looking for this kind of shit.

It would appear as if people will still indulge in vices considered taboo despite the very real threat of harsh penalty BECAUSE said vices are considered taboo. There is a demographic of individuals who feel the need to rebel, to rally against social constructs and customary norms as they find independence/a place in this world… and this doesn’t exactly encompass a small minority of individuals.

Those who experiment here and there are in a different category to the addicts who are physically dependent. I believe you alluded to this with the options of “fine, prison OR rehabilitation”.

Were you to impose life imprisonment or capitol punishment for mere recreational use perhaps you could put a dent in the issue… but then again, that didn’t work in the Phillipines.

We may be at an impasse… but I’m going to give you a scenario. Say I make it to the Netherlands and I decide to take psilocybin truffles situated inside the confines of a property inhabited by adults and only adults (legal over there, but not where you live). They have venues similar to bars, but instead of drinks they serve psilocybin… I haven’t taken psychedelics in around two years, so this wouldn’t be a regular thing.

Why have I done something wrong? Why do I deserve to be fined for this? Punishing me over this aforementioned example to me seems like crusading “I don’t like it, so down you go!”

To note, I don’t have a plan to do this, I was just bringing up a scenario. If I wanted to take psilocybin I could have been doing it in Australia.

A society that has a similar drug policy relative to the one you’ve described is (believe it or not) Singapore. I believe they execute more prisoners relative to any developed nation in the world.

Drug offences, firearm related crimes and murder = generally capitol punishment. They also have flogging as an adjunct punishment at times. The flogging leaves scars designed to mark the individual as a criminal for life

Very harsh criminal justice system. Focused on punishment to deter. I don’t think you’d like Singapore though, you’d only like this one particular variable.

1906

You’ve mentioned this scarring twice. Why would I care about it? Why didn’t the criminal refrain from harming others?

No, I wouldn’t like it. Come to think of it, being I’m 42 years old and likely cannot fully assimilate anywhere, I wouldn’t like living anywhere else but the US.

1907

If there’s one thing I’ve learned from other posters on this board over the years, it’s that this is not a real issue. It’s one that we racists dream up. See: The Unbeatable(in the same way that, “If you like apples so much, why don’t you marry one?” is unbeatable) “Why don’t you move to Somalia, then?” Argument.

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1908

I didn’t think you would

I wasn’t making one of those irritating “this society has one element you might like associated with it, move there!” Arguments. Rather I was saying Singapore has a similar manner of dealing with drug use/addicts.

Singapore is bat shit insane. I was just as Singapore airport… covid nonsense is up there with Australia!

Actually… perhaps not quite as strict, Australia takes the cake… I don’t think even Singapore banned its own citizens from coming home for two years…