A functional addict is still an addict. SOME heroin addicts can keep it together for years, but I’d think the majority unravel at some point.
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I think nicotine is considerably more addictive than caffeine. You are correct, the majority of adults will become dependent on nicotine if they continually smoke/vape/chew tobacco. Nicotine also appears to be very, very difficult to kick, particularly if one becomes addicted during their teens. #dopaminergic dysregulation
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Oh, I misread your post. I thought you meant the minority are prone to addiction to hard drugs lol. My bad.
Heroin(and probably other strong opiates) seems to be some kind of different monster altogether. I used to know people who used K, meth and crack only socially on weekend benders. Never met an “occasional” heroin user.
How are you defining “addictive”? Because IMO the real danger lies in how good the drug makes one feel and how bad withdrawal symptoms can get when one is trying to kick a drug among other things. Because, think about this. If people took smoking as seriously as heroin and arranged interventions to get someone to quit, sent them to rehab or introduced potential jail time, I don’t think anyone would be smoking.
I was once put on benzos for 2 weeks for insomnia due to jet lag and other stuff and when I stopped, I literally couldn’t sleep for more than 5 minutes at a time for 3 days.
It depends on what one considers an occasion. Junkies are a festive bunch, like “Hey I woke up again! Great day for some dope, huh?!?”.
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Prone to inducing dependence, although dependence/addiction are two differing entities they both overlap.
Abruptly ceasing use of nicotine is associated with severe psychological cravings as well as insomnia, irritability, depression (fucks with dopamine), constipation, anhedonia (dopamiiiiiinnne) and more. Granted not everyone becomes dependent on nicotine.
I never became dependent on opiates/was able to cut them out cold turkey after a few months of round the clock use (prescribed). Nicotine is one of the more addictive recreational substances at our disposal. I’ve tried nicotine before, it elicits a calm, relaxed sensation that is IMO quite pleasurable. I can see as to why people smoke when they’re stressed.
You say that, but cigarettes are around 40-45$ for a pack of 20 where I live, cigarette packets/pouches look like this
A pouch of 50g rolling tobacco costs around 110$… People still smoke here, in my state rates are relatively low at around 15%, but in the Northern Territory the prevalence of male smoking is around 50%, and 35% for the NT populace as a whole. I was initially on board for the price hikes, until they became absurd. A large portion of those who smoke reside within lower socioeconomic demographics. At a certain point (like 45$ packs of cigarettes) it would appear the goal is to raise revenue as the effectiveness of price hikes seemingly bottomed out a few years ago. It was initially effective, but hardened addicts don’t really give a shit about the price.
Furthermore, those who are already disadvantaged are now spending a sizeable portion of their income on cigarettes, this may legitimately impede one’s ability to procure food, feed family etc. The price hikes don’t effect me at all because I don’t smoke, but after a certain point (i.e 30$/pack) they don’t appear to be serving as adequate deterrents and may incur more harm than good. Now there’s talk of making cigarettes prescription only (will never happen, I highly doubt the government would support it) or putting warnings on the actual cigarettes.
As a result of our stringent regulations, a black market has popped up for tobacco and a large portion of tobacco revenue is incurred via organised crime syndicates. Penalties for growing tobacco here are like… prison… I’d argue a good portion of men/women still procure tobacco legitimately, but there’s a huge market for illicit tobacco that didn’t exist prior to these price hikes.
Clearly people must be hooked if they’re willing to shell out 45$ for 20 Marlboro cigarettes. What’s ridiculous is that we’ve decided to make vaping nicotine illigal/nicotine a prohibited import (In the form of vape cartridges). Those who wish to procure e-cigarettes will require a prescription. An inquiry into the motion is being conducted, I wonder if it’ll be overturned. Vaping appears to stress the cardiovascular system less than cigarettes, it’s purportedly also less damaging to one’s respiratory system and may serve as a useful tool to help someone quit smoking.
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WHAT???
Are you sure?
Alright, I believe it. That’s absurd on so many levels I can’t even fathom it considering your median income.
Fuck my mind got totally blown lol.
EDIT:
Wait, do you mean Australian dollars or US dollars?
Yes, a quick google search is all that is needed to confirm
it’s 25 cigarettes for 47.50$. I think gold means they’re weaker than the other colours available, I don’t think it makes a significant difference regarding toxicity. Just less nicotine/potentially less tar.
Australian dollars, so 25 Marlboro cigarettes would cost 33.75$ USD
Alright, that’s still absurd but not mindblowingly absurd. Almost there, though. I still can’t believe people would pay that kind of prices. It’s like you’re selling fucking cigars lol.
How big is the black market?
Pretty big, many stores sell unrefined, at times contaminated tobacco under the counter. There’s also a market for imported, branded cigarettes (also sold under the counter). They’re sold at cheaper prices and the packaging isn’t filled with pictures of diseased hearts/lungs and hands/feet afflicted by gangrene. Plain packaging is an effective deterrent.
Tobacco busts are routinely reported within the news
Reports like this are common, and it appears no matter how much the police seize, more pops up (just like illicit drugs).
There was a recent cannabis bust in NSW, considered the largest since 1975 (13,000 plants). What’s funny is said bust probably accounts for a tiny fraction of all cannabis growing out in the bush. Our current approach isn’t particularly effective.
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You have to taper. And it’s usually good to take something less addictive like a muscle relaxer that will make you dog ass tired.
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I do not like these draconian measures, I don’t care how bad the shit is for you.
My problem is who is to tell you how you should live or the right thing for you. I understand that hard drugs are truly problematic health wise, but cigarettes, cigars, what’s next? Are they going to ban alcohol? It’s presumably worse than many drugs, but people will make a black market like prohibition.
The question is, what is the line? And don’t people have the right to fuck up their lives if they want to?
Most of us have it pretty good. Yes, some of us have real tragedies and hardships in our lives and yet we still have it better than 99% of the world.
There are people, real people who are just truly broken, irreparably, hopelessly broken. Sometimes they turn to drugs for some relief. They don’t kill themselves but don’t care to really live either and there is nothing anybody can say or do that is going to fix these people. Perhaps some people are beyond help. And then a government decides for them, that they should be sober, happy go-lucky where they get to mire in the muck of what’s left of a life for them and take away the only thing that brings them even a little pleasure in their lives.
How do you tell somebody who is broken that they should eat right, exercise, stay sober and stay positive, don’t smoke, when everything in their lives crushed in the harshest possible ways, through no fault of their own.
I don’t know if I can articulate the level of “broken” I am talking about. It’s the kind of life story where you could never even offer a word of comfort that wouldn’t be completely insulting. Where if you imagined happening to you, it would be the type of thing that pushes you way off the cliff. And then you get these ‘do-gooders’ telling you, by force, how you ought to live your life.
It truly breaks my heart that Australia became this hell-scape of authoritarianism. Is there any light at the end of this tunnel, sorry for the ramble.
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No, binge drinking is celebrated here. Though plain packaging for alcohol was once proposed.
I think it’s pretty funny/effective. It is a joke, but you get the point
It should be noted tobacco contributes to a large portion of cancers, heart attacks and strokes worldwide. Discrepancies regarding genetic predisposition exist, but tobacco when used chronically really is quite toxic. 30-40% of deaths due to coronary artery disease in the USA are directly related to smoking, as is around 90% of deaths related to lung cancer etc. The burden tobacco induces upon the healthcare system is fairly extensive and the consequences can extend over to more than merely the individual smoking.
Alcohol is also very toxic and contributes towards death and disease, and booze if heavily abused will kill you quicker than tobacco. That being said, the statistics regarding rates of death aren’t quite as jarring as they are with tobacco. It would appear only a minority are prone to ethanol addiction whereas a startling portion of adults will become dependent on nicotine fairly quickly.
I’m all for mandated plain packaging, there is evidence graphic warnings/no branding decreases youth up-take in cigarette smoking. But the price hikes after a while seemed absurd and without apt justification, particularly after smoking rates stagnated again. I’m with you, people should have the ability to choose, but at no point should an individual be encouraged or incentived to smoke, drink to excess, gamble etc.
I’d also be behind plain packaging for alcohol. I’m not against a good time, but youth drinking culture is abhorrent and many seem to think binge drinking is intrinsically harmless (but it’s seriously toxic). I can’t see the fun behind throwing up behind a gutter and passing out on someone’s lawn.
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I’m not taking any benzos again, that’s for sure. Felt awful too.
Every single Aussie I’ve met has wild stories of this and loves to boast about it lol.
I understand you have universal healthcare? Perhaps that justifies the price hikes. Cigs are very expensive in the UK and France as well, though not as bad as Aus.
Cigarettes would have to cost almost 320/pack in order for taxable revenue to fully fill the backlog regarding tobacco induced societal burden in Australia.
Around 14 billion for lost productivity/work capacity, familial care and healthcare services all in response to tobacco related disease
Intangible costs (difficult to quantify) are estimated to be around 117 billion. I wouldn’t be surprised if this data was biased/skewed, regardless these aren’t pretty statistics given government accrued tobacco revenue is estimated to top out at around 16-17 billion this year.
I don’t think tobacco should be illegal, however it is a source of suffering, misery and is the leading cause of premature death worldwide. Actually @BrickHead you’ve stated you think banning nicotine would be a step too far. Yet you despise distributors of which you call “pro-death”. If anything big tobacco is the epitome of a “pro-death” industry given their product LITERALLY kills its customers.
Where do you draw the line? Is a line drawn when a product marketed has a pronounced impact on ones demeanour, as would be the case with cannabis or alcohol when consumed to excess. Is a line drawn when a marketed vice doesn’t cater towards engrained sociocultural normalities?
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Well, you raise the price further or ban them and you have an even bigger black market to deal with, which requires more manpower and resources to curb, which may or may not increase the overall cost of dealing with the problem.
The “prohibition” logic has proven time and time again not to work.
The societal cost associated with mass incarceration, endless resources poured into funding law enforcement/dealing with criminal syndicates, violence associated with gang related activity, loss of government attained revenue etc incur more detriment than the alternative.
The best way to reduce smoking rates IMO is to fund unbiased public education campaigns and impose plain packaging worldwide, esp in third world/developing countries. The facts regarding health outcomes associated with tobacco are scary enough without scare tactics.
One can also bar people from smoking in public/ban smokers rooms in pubs, clubs and the likes. But I don’t agree with this, confining someone to a separate room ought to be deterrent enough.
When I state “plain packaging” I’m referring to the unbranded, vomit green design. I’m on the fence about graphic pictures, as they appear to have lost effectiveness in Aus. Desensitisation in response to repeatedly viewing graphic images over and over tends to occur. Price hikes aren’t a terrible idea in theory, until prices soar to the point wherein you might as well be selling silver as opposed to cigarettes
South Africa briefly banned the sale of cigarettes during lockdown, a black market popped up in response almost immediately.
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Right, I agree and I think what you’re saying is similar to my POV that all these plus things like spending more on rehab is an investment that may cost more in the mid-term but produce incremental returns in the long run. Everything else is arguably an expense or attempts to mitigate losses in the short-term.
EDIT:
Which doesn’t mean not spending on taking out suppliers and stuff. Not at all. Just that you have to kinda “hedge” this with the aforementioned “investment”.
That’s pretty much how it went for me.
Turns out they (police, magistrate, attorney, people in meetings, family members) were right.
I’ve been able to put my life back together, find a loving woman to spend it with, and produce a beautiful child.
I can. And believe it or not, as many bad things that I’ve shared on this forum, I’ve actually held back quite a bit.
You know shit is fucked up when even your therapist stops and says “Wait a minute. I just have to say that that is completely messed up. I’ve heard some terrible things in this this line of work, and that is near the top.”.
So there’s that.
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