The War on Drugs

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1141

Detoxification shouldn’t be the only goal behind rehabilitation centres. Addiction is a vicious cycle and tends to be sewn in deeper seeded, underlying issues. As @SkyzykS has said, frequently the addict is using (aside from physical dependence) because they’re in pain and these drugs serve as a way/measure to briefly escape from the painful constructs of reality, sort of like a numbing agent. Aside from genetics, environmental variables can definitively predispose one as a candidate for addiction.

Detoxification + psychiatric intervention would probably lead to preferable outcomes as opposed to prison like rehab centres or flat out prison. Criminal records don’t help either. Criminal record = impaired employment opportunities = poverty = depression and/or engaging in potentially criminal behaviour to make ends meet.

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1142

Yup. And mid-term support for reentering society. Learning skills, getting jobs(internships at least) without prejudice etc. Otherwise they just go back into the same cycle without the incentive to change.

Of course, in the end, it’s the individual that makes his own choices. We just want to help them by facilitating the process, hoping we can give them the best chance of making the right ones.

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1143

That’s the current model. Addiction is a very tough nut to crack though.

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1144

Agreed, it isn’t to say it isn’t worth a shot.

That being said, in many areas (QLD for one) the motto is prison and/or criminal sentencing if caught, I believe the same can be said for my state though we do have a drug court. Drug courts have recently become more popular in NSW, though deferrals are few and far in-between.

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1145

I think of it this way. Let’s say there are 100,000 addicts. Just 10% responding favorably to better alternatives is 10,000 people saved. That’s a vast amount when you look at the big picture.

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1146

The Netherlands if I recall has one of the lowest rates of heroin addiction in Europe. I think this is attributed to their approach specifically tailored towards harm minimisation and the treatment of drugs use as a public health issue as opposed to a criminal justice issue.

For the hardened addicts over there, the government does provide/hand out a maintenance dose of heroin/opiate substitutes required to ward off withdrawal symptoms (heroin if all other avenues fail). This isn’t to say the addict won’t procure more and use to get high, but it does give the otherwise crippled addict an opportunity go on about his life, potentially get a job and become a contributing member of society without worrying about getting dope-sick/dealing with horrific withdrawals.

@BrickHead, I think this conversation is back if you’d like to join.

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1147

You are absolutely full of brilliant one liners sir. I am also stealing this one.

On a related note, it is a serious consideration that not everybody responds to drugs the same way (for both good and ill).

For instance, I was given 4x the normal dose of fentanyl during wisdom teeth removal, and I still woke up halfway into the procedure. I could hear the doc and nurses freaking out when I waved to them. Fortunately I didn’t feel any pain. The doc absolutely didn’t want me getting up and walking out of there, but I was 100% sober and refused to let them put me into a wheelchair to go to the waiting room. He asked me if I could feel anything in the post op room that he didn’t feel safe giving me any more to keep me under (as I’d requested in the pre-op). I walked, then drove out of there.

Similarly I had some pure MDMA at a giant New Years rave a number of years ago. Zero effect. Super disappointed since it was one if the few drugs I really did want to try and I also took from the exact same “pool” as my friends who went bonkers with a good time.

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1148

What do you all think about alternatives for opiate pain killers?

I had my tonsils removed a couple of years back and was prescribed some stuff like codeine and tramadol and they didn’t do balls for the pain. Couldn’t even swallow solid food.

I went to my own doctor friend and he gave me this:

The pain DISAPPEARED. Like magic. I was even afraid of transitioning back to solid food a week later even though I could eat a steak without any problems because there was a possibility that I’d be prolonging the healing process without pain as a warning sign.

I’m not a doctor nor educated in any profession that deals with stuff like this. Just asking people who might know.

1149

:rofl: Thank you. :+1:

I’ve heard this before too. Even something as simple a a cup of coffee before the dentists can reduce the effects of novocaine, like I found out during a root canal. Or for what ever reason became conscious during my second set of stents being put in. I brightened up and was watching the big video display of my heart and said “Ohh, that’s coool…” and the doc goes “Oh, he’s up 25 more mics of fentanyl.” and I faded out again.

In the recovery room I had a cup of coffee, some cookies, and was ready to roll, but didn’t realize till I got home that I was still kooked.

Spooky thing though, and how understandable (but not exactly acceptable) relapse can be. I was kicking back last night watching/listening to some Pink Floyd concert footage. When the refrain for Comfortably Numb kicks in “There is no pain…” I get an immediate euphoric recollection of all of the morphine in the hospital and the feeling of “Wow! Wouldn’t it feel great to have a shot of that right now!”. And that has been since mid July last year since I’ve had any narcotics.

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1150

Do you take any medication? Certain meds (particularly SSRI’s) can blunt and/or cancel out the euphoric, psychedelic, recreational effect MDMA induces. I can go into the mechanisms as to why if you’d like, but the post would be very lengthy.

Another question, how do you know the MDMA was pure? Plenty of people sell what is purported to be “pure” mdma, but it is one of the most commonly adulterated substances on the market. Many mdma analogues “mdxx” are probably relatively safe in an acute context in line with MDMA, but some substitutions (PMMA, PMA) etc are quite toxic.

Pain is a complex entity. You’ve got numerous types of pain. Neuropathic pain, pain mediated via inflammation (what type of inflammation?), Nociceptive pain etc. All have different treatments. The medication you’ve linked is a cox-2 inhibitor, otherwise known as a type of NSAID. We’ve all heard of NSAIDS (nonsteroidal anti inflammatory drugs)

Ibuprofen (nsaid) inhibits cox 1 and cox 2. The drug you’ve mentioned selectively/preferably inhibits cox 2 which is preferable to ibuprofen as the cox 1 enzyme mediated prostaglandin mediated gastric protection, thus peptic ulcer and/or stomach lining irritation risk is lower with etoricoxib. All of these drugs carry risks, look up “cox-2 inhibitors, cardiotoxicity”.

In laymen’s terms, cox-2 is somewhat responsible for inducing inflammation. Etoricoxib helped because pain induced post tonsillectomy is in part driven by inflammation. Though the pain would also be described as acute/nociceptive in nature, hence the use of opiates are also appropriate.

Codiene/tramadol aren’t particularly strong opiates and are subject to patient selectivity regarding how effective they are based upon cytochrome p450 polymorphisms. Both are pro drugs. Codiene is metabolised via cyp2d6, the primary analgesic end goal being morphine, for tramadol is desmethyltramadol.

If you have a genetic mutation (something like 4% of the population will) that means you are a poor cyp2d6 metabolizer, codiene and tramadol won’t do shit. If you are an ultra-rapid cyp2d6 metabolizer like I am, the effect will be more pronounced (and potentially dangerous).

The route of pain management is dependent on the type of pain

You’ve got medications for neuropathic pain (I can go into the pharmacokinetics if you wish, but this post is already getting way too long) like pregabalin, gabapentin, carbemazepine, SNRI’s/SSRI’s (yes, they can and are used for pain management… Not just depression) etc. Anti-inflammatory drugs like NSAIDS (cox-2 inhibitors), corticosteroids, NDMA receptor antagonists (well… Just ketamine for pain management), opiate/opioid painkillers and more

We have a wide variety of drugs used for pain. For debilitating, severe pain in an acute context like post surgical pain, for a fracture etc however opiates will always be king

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1152

I don’t think I’m a good fit for such conversations anymore considering I likely have a view on vice and smut peddlers, large-scale recreational-drug distributors (not some frat boy selling weed or E pills), and a certain powerful family that started a particular lower-class plague that no one will like or agree with. Yes, I want that for them.

I want that because they seek to humiliate, destroy, and kill individuals and families. They are all pro-death.

It is Sunday afternoon. I usually go to places on Sundays in which I see clean streets and parents playing with their kids. At times While at such places, beaches, parks, places of worship, restaurants, the main street of town, assorted community events, I’ve asked myself, what type of person seeks to ruin this?!” People who don’t mind introducing and promoting poison for the minds and bodies and altering the trajectories of children or stifling their potential—I’ve recently realized I shouldn’t engage with them.

And as I’ve repeatedly stated in several threads, it is peculiar for “freedom”-promoting (read: licentiousness-promoting) adults promoting or supporting what they don’t want for themselves or their children. Drug use and other “freedoms” should be chosen by others while the power couple places Junior on the academic conveyor belt to a top tier school starting with his first word spoken. Gotta maintain “muh principles” and “not judge.”
“Junior’s gonna go to Cal Tech. Sparing Johnny from across the tracks with his drug-plagued town and life of difficulty? Don’t look at me pal! Screw ‘em!”

People can reason, play mental gymnastics, or jump through libertarian hoops all they want with me. “Consenting adults”, “free will”, “the market”, “to each his own”, “choice”—anyone using these terms with will be talking to a wall, with me being the wall.

I don’t mean to be a dud, but this is what my thoughts have come down to. Thanks for the invitation though (seriously). I might post more, I might not.

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1153

Interesting to hear you bring up coffee. Even something as simple as a small 6 oz cup of coffee would send a couple of my clients completely over the edge hyper and goofy for hours on end. That same thing wouldn’t even wake me up in the morning. They get a huge buzz from green tea lol. Granted I drank large amounts of coffee for years, but that doesn’t explain the full difference either.

You’re dead on. It’s absolutely crazy. And your “flashback” actually would worry me even though I don’t have the same kind of personal history you do. I’ve never once felt euphoria from any painkiller, which goes back to the individual variation.

It’s ultimately the individual who has to choose. Just hard all the way around at the same time.

1154

Nope, no meds. And no need to go into the mechanisms, but thanks. I have a background in that :).

Pure regarding black market stuff is inherently a sketchy and probably unprovable statement. Maybe I should have said “good”. In any case it was the same stash one of my out of state friends had for months, so it wasn’t like they just got it. They knew what it was. And the effects were as I would expect on the people I was with.

It’s neither here nor there, and it was years and years ago. I just threw the story in because of where the discussion was going.

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1155

Yeah. Root canal with an excited nervous system! :joy:

It’s one of those ironies of life that with my affinity for adrenaline and caffeine that I’d end up on metaprolol.

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1156

I don’t think they’re pro-death per se, they’re pro profits; money entices greed. I’d argue big-tobacco, casino’s, the alcohol industry etc are all “pro-death” to an extent, particularly the first example as they sell a highly addictive product that slowly kills people (both those who use and those around those who use). More than death, these companies are interested in incurring a profit, and promoting a vice entices regular people as well as a particular group of people prone to getting hooked. The result from the latter is a large generation of profit.

My rationale for drug decriminalisation isn’t a wish to tarnish the positive aspects of society, it stems from the belief that I see it as a lesser of two evils. It doesn’t appear realistically possible to stamp out the nature of drug use within modern, secular society. Otherwise law abiding citizens are getting locked up for minor/trivial offences, profits incurred are going directly to large scale criminal syndicates/cartels. For those that have been locked up, having a criminal record equates to unemployment and THAT equates to higher rates of crime/depression and relapsing in relation to hard drug use.

I think a different approach needs to be taken. Data is indicative flat out legalisation/decriminalisation doesn’t equate to an uptick in use and at times may lead to a decrease in youth related drug use. There ARE certain substances that aren’t particularly harmful and thus could be legalised under a specialised framework. Children don’t attend frat parties, nightclubs or keg parties, I highly doubt my proposed idea/framework surrounding the legalisation of E would impact children/church-going, devoutly religious communities. Profits incurred would largely leave the hands of cartels. I’d argue a black market would still exist, it just wouldn’t be quite as profitable.

Reduced transmission of blood borne pathogens associated with decriminalisation/harm minimisation protocols enacted has been noted. Reduced rates of community based HIV transmission per se positively effects more than those using drugs. Mandating drug courts/encouraging rehabilitation over prison sentencing may lead to a better outcome for a portion of those afflicted by addiction. If one can be rehabilitated (difficult) and returns to society without a criminal record it is possible for them to entrench themselves as a productive member of society as opposed to being thought of as a lost-cause ex-con without a job/opportunity for employment.

I don’t think anyone is going not argue against the prospect of large scale drug distributors being nefarious characters, though those who manufacture substances may merely be disadvantaged families wherein growing cocoa is the only way to make a living. I think the death penalty is a little bit extreme aside from those very high up who may also be involved in arms dealing, human trafficking etc.

Societal overhaul regarding legislature tabled and enacted is required in my opinion. If we can make the prospect of selling/manufacturing drugs far-less profitable criminal syndicates may be less likely to push them across borders. As a public health issue I also believe catering towards harm minimisation akin to the way we already do with alcohol/cigarettes would be preferable/lead to preferable public health outcomes.

No one is arguing for rampant heroin addiction or meth being handed out to kids instead of hot rocks.

I’ve also got the “muh freedoms”, “consenting adults” and “choice” arguments, but we’ve already talked about them. You and I fundamentally disagree regarding whether individualistic rights ought to be prioritised.

No problem, I enjoy talking to you.

1157

I think they should be burnt at the stake, actually. Medieval style where a skilled executioner would know how to fuck with the flames so the suffering is prolonged.

Or this:

We’re not talking about hard drugs being commercially sold like alcohol. Read his post above where he talks about his views on different categories of drugs.

I was also saying we can’t have a real conversation because the word “drugs” ranges from weed to heroin, so we’re gonna have to leave the hard drugs out by default if we’re going to start talking about some libertarianism stuff that I don’t know much about.

Agree?

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1158

They had some pretty nasty medieval torture devices back in the day

I’m generally anti-death penalty unless the crimes are extreme i.e human trafficking, serial killing, extreme cruelty etc. Many large scale recreational distributors fit this bill as they are involved with violence, human trafficking, torture etc.

At a certain point I can’t understand why a state/country would pay to harbour you as an inmate if you’re a depraved individual who has killed 45 hookers in cold blood. At this point you are beyond rehabilitation and you are responsible loss of life/lives and suffering incurred towards friends/family members.

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1159

I’m on the fence about the death penalty from a legal perspective, plus the advancements in technology that has been able to prove that some people who were once judged guilty were actually innocent. I’ve been wrestling personally with this for over a decade so I probably won’t discuss it here.

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1160

I’m with you on that. That is a topic I have been going back and forth on for a very long time. Morally I do believe there are people who deserve death for their crimes. The legal question though, that’s a different one entirely.

1161

The caveat with the death penalty is associated with the notion of barbarity. Can we ethically put someone down against their will? Does sentencing to death imply we are just as barbaric as the perpetrator of X whatever crime has warranted such a sentence? What if the guilty verdict is inaccurate?

I think it can be done depending on the method used and I believe apt justification for putting someone down may exist. Those sentenced to death within secular countries are typically guilty of heinous crimes wherein the perpetrator has induced a level of suffering to another/others beyond our level of comprehension. To administer a means of death that brings on great suffering would be barbaric, primal and potentially unethical. The goal of putting someone down in the context of the law IMO shouldn’t be to induce suffering, rather the goal should be to rid society of someone who is evil, beyond rehabilitation and who has committed heinous crimes. In such a context, a large shot of fentanyl + IV barbiturates ought to do the trick. That or administer a “darvon cocktail” (dextropropoxyphene + CNS depressant). Provided the dosage is large enough, this method of execution should prove effective and relatively painless.

There was a man named Peter Scully from Australia who produced explicit, violent and abhorrent material involving minors/children. He is assumed to be responsible for the murders of quite a few children. He created a network distributing this contraband material over the dark web and made a lot of money. The specifics regarding his crimes were so graphic I don’t think I can detail them on here, you’d have to look it up and/or watch the news segment on his case. Upon capture he was sentenced to life in prison. In his interview one can see he doesn’t display remorse, nor does he particuarly care about the rammifications his actions may have had on others.

This is an example of a man who is beyond rehabilitation, a man without morals, evil and is responsible for numerous atrocities. Footage detailing his crimes shown during his trial clearly implicates him as the perpetrator.

Should he be harboured as an inmate? Should any amount of our taxable income go towards sustaining this man in prison for the rest of his years? I believe perhaps it’s simply logical to instate the death penalty when circumstances are extreme like this.

@Aragorn @dt79

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