The Triumph of Socialism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1

By Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

[i]Do you think ideas don’t matter, that what people believe about themselves and their world has no real consequence? If so, the following will not bug you in the slightest.

A new BBC poll finds that only 11 percent of people questioned around the world â?? and 29,000 people were asked their opinions â?? think that free-market capitalism is a good thing. The rest believe in more government regulation. Only a small percentage of the world’s population believes that capitalism works well and that more regulation will reduce efficiency.

One-quarter of those asked said that capitalism is “fatally flawed.” In France, 43 percent believe this. In Mexico, it is 38 percent. A majority believes that government should rob the rich to give money to poor countries. In only one country, Turkey, did a majority say that less government is better.

It gets even worse. While most Europeans and Americans think it was a good thing for the Soviet Union to disintegrate, people in India, Indonesia, Ukraine, Pakistan, Russia, and Egypt mostly think it was a bad thing. Yes, you read that right: millions freed from socialist slavery: bad thing.

That news must lift the heart of every would-be despot the world over. And it comes as something of a shock twenty years after the collapse of socialism in Russia and Eastern Europe revealed what this system had created: backward societies with citizens who lived short and miserable lives. Then there is the China case, a country rescued from bloody barbarism under communism and transformed into a modern and prosperous country by capitalism…[/i]

2

I would like to have seen a similar poll in 2006 when the economy was rocking. Tough times always get the masses wanting more from their government and good times they want to be left alone.

3

The fact is that no one has any clue what a real world free-market would look like. If you think we ever had one you are fooling yourself. The same people who don’t want to gubbermint offering a public option are the same folks (not all of them, but many) who are all for protectionist policies like tariffs.

All these “Buy American” folks (who are too stupid to realize the crap they buy at Wal-Mart ain’t American) don’t see the contradiction when they buy an inferior product at an inflated price because it’s produced by a company owned by Americans.

Do labeling rues count as “government regulation”?

I think people should be able to buy, sell, eat, drink, smoke, inject whatever they want. But you run into a problem where “the free market” allows a company to label or mislabel whatever they want. Is it government intrusion into the free-market when you make a company label their food-products accurately? I mean, in a truly free market, we the consumer, should be responsible for testing and analyzing everything we eat in our home labs before we eat it. Right?

Honestly, I have no problem with McDonalds putting rat meat in their burgers, as long as they have to disclose it. But that would be Big Brother telling them what to do, right? Maybe?

I think you misinterpret if you think most people thing you shouldn’t be able to work hard and become rich, and that if you refuse to work you should be poor and destitute. Most people think that’s fine. Yes, there are some fringe liberals (and perhaps they are more prevalent int Northern Europe) that believe the healthy young man who refuses to work should be kept on life-support by the polis. But that’s not what that BBC poll is showing.

And I think you are dead wrong if you think there aren’t some major flaws in capitalism, and things like anti-trust laws aren’t necessary. If I can make a great product at a competitive price and make billions, good for me.

If I then can use that profit to subsidize a crappy, otherwise nonviable product, and push it into the market place by so drastically undercutting my competitions prices until they are all pushed out of business… that’s a problem. Once I acquire enough wealth that I can just buyout any start up that might create a better cheaper, product: that’s a problem. Is it not?

And this happens all the time, particularly when the full cost of a product is hidden, and people don’t have the time/smarts/resources to figure it out and allow the market to compensate.

For example, what % of the population do you think factors the cost over the life of a vehicle versus just the initial cost? Would it be an infringement on “the free market” if car companies were required to list the estimated cost for the life of vehicle/the estimated life of the vehicle like they have to list the estimated fuel efficiency?

Would that be a detriment to the free market? Or would that create a better more competitive market that creates better products?

I’m just curious.

4

The people who do not want the public option are not all the “buy american protectionist” types you seem to denigrate. Anyone who took econ 101 sees comparative advantage, and may coincidentatly not want government health care.

1865-1913 was a nice taste of what capitalism could look like in the US.

As far as your mcdonalds raw meat example, that is certainly flawed, people wouldnt realize they are getting salmonella? They would continue to go there? Mcdonalds would not go bankrupt? Thats preposterous.

Furthermore, in a limited government the two main objectives are self defence from foreign enemies and enforcement of civil law, ie contracts. The lack of adherence to the latter is not a result of capitalism but of statism and corpratism.

5

It never ceases to amaze me how hopelessly brainwashed people in supposedly pluralist and 'freedom of speech 'societies are.

The fact anyone even replied seriously to this article, is absolutely baffling. If you read the thing is about as distorted and one-sided, as a 1957 Pravda article.

I’m sorry, but it appears to me the OP either didn’t read this article, or is some what stunted mentally.

I could go into it all day, but I can some it up like this.

‘CAN WE JUST GET PAST THE COLD WAR SHIT ALREADY!!!’ All the electoral and economic systems supposedly blah blah’ed about during the Cold War never fit their molds, over lapped and were often completely reversed in their true positions.

I’m so tired of hearing the whole, 'We’ll that’s because they are communist, and we are a democracy!" By some fuckign baby boomer who is going to the same poly sci class as me. It makes want to bang my fucking head against a wall.

How about this, “It gets even worse. While most Europeans and Americans think it was a good thing for the Soviet Union to disintegrate, people in India, Indonesia, Ukraine, Pakistan, Russia, and Egypt mostly think it was a bad thing. Yes, you read that right: millions freed from socialist slavery: bad thing.”

Socialism was slavery? Really? Funny how the country the writer is from, had 400 years of the most complete slavery, followed by 80 years of systemized slavery, and now what many may argue to be a form wage slavery, or worker serfdom. All during the glorious age of capitalism.

This is article is so stupid, I want to take a gun and shoot the writer of this article in his fucking face, seriously.

6

[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how hopelessly brainwashed people in supposedly pluralist and 'freedom of speech 'societies are.

The fact anyone even replied seriously to this article, is absolutely baffling. If you read the thing is about as distorted and one-sided, as a 1957 Pravda article.

I’m sorry, but it appears to me the OP either didn’t read this article, or is some what stunted mentally.

I could go into it all day, but I can some it up like this.

‘CAN WE JUST GET PAST THE COLD WAR SHIT ALREADY!!!’ All the electoral and economic systems supposedly blah blah’ed about during the Cold War never fit their molds, over lapped and were often completely reversed in their true positions.

I’m so tired of hearing the whole, 'We’ll that’s because they are communist, and we are a democracy!" By some fuckign baby boomer who is going to the same poly sci class as me. It makes want to bang my fucking head against a wall.

How about this, “It gets even worse. While most Europeans and Americans think it was a good thing for the Soviet Union to disintegrate, people in India, Indonesia, Ukraine, Pakistan, Russia, and Egypt mostly think it was a bad thing. Yes, you read that right: millions freed from socialist slavery: bad thing.”

Socialism was slavery? Really? Funny how the country the writer is from, had 400 years of the most complete slavery, followed by 80 years of systemized slavery, and now what many may argue to be a form wage slavery, or worker serfdom. All during the glorious age of capitalism.

This is article is so stupid, I want to take a gun and shoot the writer of this article in his fucking face, seriously.
[/quote]

Did it ever occur to you that Russia needed to prevent people from fleeing socialist freedom by force whereas America has a hard time keeping potential “wage slaves” out?

Something does not compute.

7

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It gets even worse. While most Europeans and Americans think it was a good thing for the Soviet Union to disintegrate, people in India, Indonesia, Ukraine, Pakistan, Russia, and Egypt mostly think it was a bad thing. Yes, you read that right: millions freed from socialist slavery: bad thing.
[/quote]

This shouldn’t really be a surprise, a least not when it comes to russians and ukrainians. Millions of middle class people were “better off” during communism, that’s how they perceived it, the sence of security and above all, continuity that government employment provided.

8

…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

9

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…[/quote]

Greed is unchecked in the market place?

I thought precisely because competition checks it so efficiently the free market works.

There is no check on government greed however with the exceptions of revo9lutions.

10

[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

Greed is unchecked in the market place?

I thought precisely because competition checks it so efficiently the free market works.

There is no check on government greed however with the exceptions of revo9lutions.

[/quote]

…you read too fast orion, try again…

11

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…[/quote]

You’re right about the greed. It can make the system fail. But if the system is left in it’s natural state, you always have a competitor looking for any weakness you might have to be exploited. But what if you’re so good that there is no weakness to exploit and you develop into a monopoly and squash any chance of competition? The government steps in and breaks up the monopoly.

BTW: I wonder if A Southern Bell company would be broken up by the government today?

Capitalism will have alot of it’s won problems and will eventually fail to be replaced by a better system. Perhaps a resource based economy.

12

[quote]Gregus wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

You’re right about the greed. It can make the system fail. But if the system is left in it’s natural state, you always have a competitor looking for any weakness you might have to be exploited. But what if you’re so good that there is no weakness to exploit and you develop into a monopoly and squash any chance of competition? The government steps in and breaks up the monopoly.

[/quote]

If you are THAT good there is no need to destroy that “monopoly”.

You are already operating at maximum efficiency.

13

[quote]ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

Greed is unchecked in the market place?

I thought precisely because competition checks it so efficiently the free market works.

There is no check on government greed however with the exceptions of revo9lutions.

…you read too fast orion, try again…[/quote]

Well no, because the idea that greed “runs unchecked” in capitalism is fallacious.

14

[quote]Gregus wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

You’re right about the greed. It can make the system fail. But if the system is left in it’s natural state, you always have a competitor looking for any weakness you might have to be exploited. But what if you’re so good that there is no weakness to exploit and you develop into a monopoly and squash any chance of competition? The government steps in and breaks up the monopoly.

BTW: I wonder if A Southern Bell company would be broken up by the government today?

Capitalism will have alot of it’s won problems and will eventually fail to be replaced by a better system. Perhaps a resource based economy. [/quote]

…the problem i have with unchecked capitalism is that you’ll end up with only a handfull of huge corporations that will rule the marketplace. There will be no competitors, and those who are of the same size won’t compete with eachother; instead they make price agreements or form cartels…

…when every media outlet is controled by those corporations they’ll own the consumer. What i find so hard to understand about this is why orion and his ilk can’t see that ultimately we’ll end up with a totalitarian state governed by corporations. They may trust a system, i trust humans to be humans…

15

[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

Greed is unchecked in the market place?

I thought precisely because competition checks it so efficiently the free market works.

There is no check on government greed however with the exceptions of revo9lutions.

…you read too fast orion, try again…

Well no, because the idea that greed “runs unchecked” in capitalism is fallacious.[/quote]

…because, eventhough there’s so much greed in our current system already that, if you take away regulation and oversight, people stop being greedy?

16

[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how hopelessly brainwashed people in supposedly pluralist and 'freedom of speech 'societies are.

The fact anyone even replied seriously to this article, is absolutely baffling. If you read the thing is about as distorted and one-sided, as a 1957 Pravda article.

I’m sorry, but it appears to me the OP either didn’t read this article, or is some what stunted mentally.

I could go into it all day, but I can some it up like this.

‘CAN WE JUST GET PAST THE COLD WAR SHIT ALREADY!!!’ All the electoral and economic systems supposedly blah blah’ed about during the Cold War never fit their molds, over lapped and were often completely reversed in their true positions.

I’m so tired of hearing the whole, 'We’ll that’s because they are communist, and we are a democracy!" By some fuckign baby boomer who is going to the same poly sci class as me. It makes want to bang my fucking head against a wall.

How about this, “It gets even worse. While most Europeans and Americans think it was a good thing for the Soviet Union to disintegrate, people in India, Indonesia, Ukraine, Pakistan, Russia, and Egypt mostly think it was a bad thing. Yes, you read that right: millions freed from socialist slavery: bad thing.”

Socialism was slavery? Really? Funny how the country the writer is from, had 400 years of the most complete slavery, followed by 80 years of systemized slavery, and now what many may argue to be a form wage slavery, or worker serfdom. All during the glorious age of capitalism.

This is article is so stupid, I want to take a gun and shoot the writer of this article in his fucking face, seriously.
[/quote]

America only had institutionalized slavery for non-indigenous peoples. That doesn’t count. Surely, you might see that?

17

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Gregus wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

You’re right about the greed. It can make the system fail. But if the system is left in it’s natural state, you always have a competitor looking for any weakness you might have to be exploited. But what if you’re so good that there is no weakness to exploit and you develop into a monopoly and squash any chance of competition? The government steps in and breaks up the monopoly.

BTW: I wonder if A Southern Bell company would be broken up by the government today?

Capitalism will have alot of it’s won problems and will eventually fail to be replaced by a better system. Perhaps a resource based economy.

…the problem i have with unchecked capitalism is that you’ll end up with only a handfull of huge corporations that will rule the marketplace. There will be no competitors, and those who are of the same size won’t compete with eachother; instead they make price agreements or form cartels…

…when every media outlet is controled by those corporations they’ll own the consumer. What i find so hard to understand about this is why orion and his ilk can’t see that ultimately we’ll end up with a totalitarian state governed by corporations. They may trust a system, i trust humans to be humans…[/quote]

I don’t see it that way. If you look at the developement of some of the larger Robber Baron corporations like Standard Oil you see Rockefeller and the government working together to brutally repress labor unions and any kind of workers rights. Standard Oil used tactics that today we would call racketeering in order to eliminate their competition. This era was held as an example of a free market system but I’m only seeing government not fulfilling it’s natural role as an enforcer of fair transactions.

And what if one corporation controls all the news networks and major newspapers? The free market produced the Drudge Report and (cough) talk radio. No one can completely control the media in a free market.

18

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…because, eventhough there’s so much greed in our current system already that, if you take away regulation and oversight, people stop being greedy?
[/quote]
The best check on one person’s greed is somebody else’s greed. Put those two people in competition (or more accurately: remove existing governmental restraints on competition) and society will be the better for it.

Nice to see more Euros posting here. We can teach you a lot.
About Austrian economics and capitalism.

And you can probably teach the Americans here a lot, as well. Starting with basic geography.

19

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Gregus wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

You’re right about the greed. It can make the system fail. But if the system is left in it’s natural state, you always have a competitor looking for any weakness you might have to be exploited. But what if you’re so good that there is no weakness to exploit and you develop into a monopoly and squash any chance of competition? The government steps in and breaks up the monopoly.

BTW: I wonder if A Southern Bell company would be broken up by the government today?

Capitalism will have alot of it’s won problems and will eventually fail to be replaced by a better system. Perhaps a resource based economy.

…the problem i have with unchecked capitalism is that you’ll end up with only a handfull of huge corporations that will rule the marketplace. There will be no competitors, and those who are of the same size won’t compete with eachother; instead they make price agreements or form cartels…

…when every media outlet is controled by those corporations they’ll own the consumer. What i find so hard to understand about this is why orion and his ilk can’t see that ultimately we’ll end up with a totalitarian state governed by corporations. They may trust a system, i trust humans to be humans…[/quote]

Because we get more corporations, not less each year and the idea that media conglomerates might rule us while most traditional news media struggle to survive is preposterous.

Meanwhile governments DO rule us.

20

[quote]ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…true socialism [communism] failed for the same reason true capitalism will fail: human nature. You can’t let greed go unchecked, nor can you allow government to get a too big a hold on society. The idea that one system can cure all is foolishness, and runs the risk of becoming a religion of sorts. Perhaps it’s easier to only think in black or white terms, but reality is that we have to find some common ground or someone else runs off with the bone…

Greed is unchecked in the market place?

I thought precisely because competition checks it so efficiently the free market works.

There is no check on government greed however with the exceptions of revo9lutions.

…you read too fast orion, try again…

Well no, because the idea that greed “runs unchecked” in capitalism is fallacious.

…because, eventhough there’s so much greed in our current system already that, if you take away regulation and oversight, people stop being greedy?

[/quote]

No but there is no unchecked greed.

But if you divert power to politicians greed suddenly disappears…

And then you have , mwuahahaha, democratic, snicker, contro…

No I cannot even post that as satire.

I prefer the liberty of voting with my wallet.