The Staying Lean Factor

Training
41

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but a few comments by BlueCollarTr8n (you’re my boy, Blue!) got me thinking and because I have a small, weak mind I like thinking in precise terms. In finance, the first thing you learn is that you can not add cash flows across time. That is, a dollar today is not worth the same as a dollar tomorrow. Likewise, when talking about the individual, you can not compare levels of LBM except at similar body fat levels. This is much like Blue’s insistence of “abs in”.

If I start at %15 bf at 165lbs and grow to %25 at 220lbs, the idea that I gained 25lbs of LBM, while inherent in the mathematics, is surprisingly unhelpful and many times moves the trainee in a direction contrary to their goals. Only when the trainee has again achieved %15 can they then accurately say they’ve gained X amount of LBM.

Any thoughts? Can anyone flesh this out a bit better than I can, my brain is fried after a long week.

Hell, we could even call it Blue’s Rule, lol.[/quote]

I like your points agree. That makes sense to me.

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around where all of this muscle that is lost during the leaning out process actually goes?

I have a hard time believing that, for a intermediate+ lifter, it takes a solid year of busting your butt in the kitchen/gym to put on 10lbs of solid muscle (not counting the inevitably fat gain that accompanies this) but that in a smart, well thought out and executed diet of 12-16 weeks a trainee can lose almost that much muscle along with body fat?

not sure if the above run on sentence makes sense. If not I can clarify :slight_smile:

My theory is that most trainees overestimate how much actual muscle we actually have and mistake water/boat/glycogen/whatever with muscle weight. That is my theory.

GENERALLY Dieting = less carbs. Less carbs = less water retention. Less water retention = less weight.

A muscle with less water retention will be smaller and weigh less but it’s still the same “amount” of muscle as before right? generally speaking of course

[/quote]

Good point, I agree it’s easy to fool yourself into believing you have more muscle when your at a higher weight than you really do. I don’t believe an advanced trainee that knwos what they’re doing or a top level natty bber is going to lose a significant amount of muscle in the dieting process. Definitely not 10 lbs.

42

I like your points a lot Smashweights. I think we need to be very careful not to conflate lean body mass with muscle. Muscle is exactly that (and apparently can be further reduced into dry and wet(?) weight) while lean body mass is calculated by subtracting body fat from total body weight. If I drink a gallon of water, I’ve increased my LBM by 8lbs.

I think, in this particular thread, if we want to have a meaningful discussion, we need to be precise is what it is we’re actually stating.

I think this thread has a lot of potential because we can draw on the experiences of a large amount of people. I think it would be better for all of us if we leave the shitstorms in their respective threads and really just focus on the who/what/when/where/why/and hows of being lean.

43

There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! I have ever seen a girl who gives a crap about how much a guy can bench but if you are pretty lean with all your abs- they are all about it! Plus, I just feel way better being lean. I also agree with zraw- you can notice the slightest difference in your look that otherwise eludes you when you are bulked. I felt the slightest smooth last week, so i dropped about 50 grams of carbs out of my total for a week and I am back to normal.

Plus I think most people totally underestimate their body fat. I had a guy at the gym last week tell me he thought he was around 10% and he was probably really 20% if not well above!

44

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Good point, I agree it’s easy to fool yourself into believing you have more muscle when your at a higher weight than you really do. I don’t believe an advanced trainee that knwos what they’re doing or a top level natty bber is going to lose a significant amount of muscle in the dieting process. Definitely not 10 lbs.[/quote]

It is easy to fool yourself because, lets be honest, no one wants to admit how much fat they are really carrying (unless you’re very lean)

Everyone wants to think that they have more muscle mass and less fat because it makes them feel better about themselves.

I do not think that an advanced trainee would lose a significant amount of muscle during a well thought out and executed diet but that seems to be (I could be wrong) what a few posters are saying when they make claims that by keeping a higher BF% they are able to hold more muscle because it would be lost by dieting down. (Again, I could be misinterpreting that but I do not think that I am)

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I like your points a lot Smashweights. I think we need to be very careful not to conflate lean body mass with muscle. Muscle is exactly that (and apparently can be further reduced into dry and wet(?) weight) while lean body mass is calculated by subtracting body fat from total body weight. If I drink a gallon of water, I’ve increased my LBM by 8lbs.

I think, in this particular thread, if we want to have a meaningful discussion, we need to be precise is what it is we’re actually stating.

I think this thread has a lot of potential because we can draw on the experiences of a large amount of people. I think it would be better for all of us if we leave the shitstorms in their respective threads and really just focus on the who/what/when/where/why/and hows of being lean.[/quote]

Good points Dr.

In my opinion, by dieting down (doesn’t have to be to contest condition because this forum is not intended for competition BB talk) a trainee is able to see how much muscle they are actually carrying and how much of their body weight was fat and all of that other stuff (water/glycogen/whatever else)

I think the above point was illustrated quite well by BlueCollars statement about getting to the same BF% you started out at in order to properly asses muscle gains.

45

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:

[quote]marshaldteach wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:
If you are lean you can actually SEE the progress you are making, instead of hoping for it or reading it on paper based on str gains[/quote]

I don’t think being 10-20%(not sure what “lean” means in this thread) makes it that hard to determine whether you are gaining muscle or not

but if you are talking about people who are morbidly obese yeah maybe you are right

[/quote]

i dont think being 10% makes it hard no.

I do think 20% makes it hard yes.[/quote]

I think I gain optimally somewhere between 600 and 15000 calories per day.
[/quote]

Exactly lol…I don’t get why this seems like such a popular argumentative tactic on the forums lately. People acting as if a range like that does ANYTHING to prove any point. 10-20% is a HUGE gap, throwing that out there as an example of “lean” is ridiculous.

6-15.

46

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:

[quote]marshaldteach wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:
If you are lean you can actually SEE the progress you are making, instead of hoping for it or reading it on paper based on str gains[/quote]

I don’t think being 10-20%(not sure what “lean” means in this thread) makes it that hard to determine whether you are gaining muscle or not

but if you are talking about people who are morbidly obese yeah maybe you are right

[/quote]

i dont think being 10% makes it hard no.

I do think 20% makes it hard yes.[/quote]

I think I gain optimally somewhere between 600 and 15000 calories per day.
[/quote]

Exactly lol…I don’t get why this seems like such a popular argumentative tactic on the forums lately. People acting as if a range like that does ANYTHING to prove any point. 10-20% is a HUGE gap, throwing that out there as an example of “lean” is ridiculous.

6-15. [/quote]

never called 20% lean, was just wondering what bodyfat you would have to be for it to be difficult to notice changes by just looking at your muscles…

you’d have to have a ridiculous amount of bodyfat to not be able to tell by observation

47

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.

Edit for clarification: “… don’t necessarily agree that chicks dig it” (any more than full house or skinny).

48

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

ill admit it is one reason for me.

this is a hobby for me and i do it to look and feel good. i just really dont see any benefit in getting to a point where my bodyfat is so high i dont feel comfortable taking my shirt off. i like to look good while getting bigger, but thats just me.

49

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I “agree” or “disagree” with people wanting to stay lean all the time…that’s their choice. And ESPECIALLY if they’re in it for chicks/looks, why would they want to get to a higher level of bf% at any point? For myself, aesthetics has generally been secondary to strength, but I certainly don’t see anything wrong with people who wanna look good, and year-round at that.

50

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I “agree” or “disagree” with people wanting to stay lean all the time…that’s their choice. And ESPECIALLY if they’re in it for chicks/looks, why would they want to get to a higher level of bf% at any point? For myself, aesthetics has generally been secondary to strength, but I certainly don’t see anything wrong with people who wanna look good, and year-round at that. [/quote]

I meant “necessarily agree with chicks digging it”, not about staying lean. Yeah, leanness is a choice. Do whatever you need to do, right?

I meant that I don’t agree that chicks dig ‘staying lean’ any more than ‘full house’ or ‘skinny’ or ‘non-descript’.

Look at the general population. There are hot chicks with regular dudes who do nothing, or are joggers, or fat, or whatever. Certain chicks dig hawt abz. They all dig good jobs and responsibility and good personalities.

Fat wallets get dudes laid more than hawt abzzz.

And guitars. Guitars got me laid more than abs ever did.

51

Yeah, certainly. But take someone that already has a given set of good traits, add “physically attractive” to them…just one more factor, yknow?

52

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I “agree” or “disagree” with people wanting to stay lean all the time…that’s their choice. And ESPECIALLY if they’re in it for chicks/looks, why would they want to get to a higher level of bf% at any point? For myself, aesthetics has generally been secondary to strength, but I certainly don’t see anything wrong with people who wanna look good, and year-round at that. [/quote]

I meant “necessarily agree with chicks digging it”, not about staying lean. Yeah, leanness is a choice. Do whatever you need to do, right?

I meant that I don’t agree that chicks dig ‘staying lean’ any more than ‘full house’ or ‘skinny’ or ‘non-descript’.

Look at the general population. There are hot chicks with regular dudes who do nothing, or are joggers, or fat, or whatever. Certain chicks dig hawt abz. They all dig good jobs and responsibility and good personalities.

Fat wallets get dudes laid more than hawt abzzz.

And guitars. Guitars got me laid more than abs ever did.[/quote]

I do not thinking anyone has advocated “hawt abzzz” instead of good jobs, responsibility, good personalities, fat wallets and guitars? Maybe they have but I have yet to see it.

Take two versions of the same exact guy (identical twins perhaps?)

Twin #1
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular but a bit chubby.

Twin #2
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular and lean with “hawt abzzz.”

Who would 99% of women on earth choose with all other things being equal?

53

With all that being said, those other factors that were stated before the physique comments are more important in regards to attracting women.

54

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I “agree” or “disagree” with people wanting to stay lean all the time…that’s their choice. And ESPECIALLY if they’re in it for chicks/looks, why would they want to get to a higher level of bf% at any point? For myself, aesthetics has generally been secondary to strength, but I certainly don’t see anything wrong with people who wanna look good, and year-round at that. [/quote]

I meant “necessarily agree with chicks digging it”, not about staying lean. Yeah, leanness is a choice. Do whatever you need to do, right?

I meant that I don’t agree that chicks dig ‘staying lean’ any more than ‘full house’ or ‘skinny’ or ‘non-descript’.

Look at the general population. There are hot chicks with regular dudes who do nothing, or are joggers, or fat, or whatever. Certain chicks dig hawt abz. They all dig good jobs and responsibility and good personalities.

Fat wallets get dudes laid more than hawt abzzz.

And guitars. Guitars got me laid more than abs ever did.[/quote]

I do not thinking anyone has advocated “hawt abzzz” instead of good jobs, responsibility, good personalities, fat wallets and guitars? Maybe they have but I have yet to see it.

Take two versions of the same exact guy (identical twins perhaps?)

Twin #1
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular but a bit chubby.

Twin #2
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular and lean with “hawt abzzz.”

Who would 99% of women on earth choose with all other things being equal?[/quote]

I don’t know 1 or 2. It’s totally made up and hypothetical, right? In your mind, obviously it’s abs. In mine, maybe not.

My wife said something out of the blue the other day about my physique. I’m not an ab model. She likes her men beefy-- I don’t mean obese, I mean big and strong looking.

I showed here som pics on here of various folks and while I won’t name names, she laughed at some of the avatars and posted pics of people who have competed saying “THAT’S ‘big’ and ‘muscular’? They just look like their skinny” (to be fair, I clarified that by ‘skinny’ she meant ‘lean’ – yes, she meant lean, but not ‘big and muscular’)

Of course, that’s my n=1 personal anecdote, so I’m not claiming that she speaks for all women or anyone but herself. Plus I got laid last night.

55

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I “agree” or “disagree” with people wanting to stay lean all the time…that’s their choice. And ESPECIALLY if they’re in it for chicks/looks, why would they want to get to a higher level of bf% at any point? For myself, aesthetics has generally been secondary to strength, but I certainly don’t see anything wrong with people who wanna look good, and year-round at that. [/quote]

I meant “necessarily agree with chicks digging it”, not about staying lean. Yeah, leanness is a choice. Do whatever you need to do, right?

I meant that I don’t agree that chicks dig ‘staying lean’ any more than ‘full house’ or ‘skinny’ or ‘non-descript’.

Look at the general population. There are hot chicks with regular dudes who do nothing, or are joggers, or fat, or whatever. Certain chicks dig hawt abz. They all dig good jobs and responsibility and good personalities.

Fat wallets get dudes laid more than hawt abzzz.

And guitars. Guitars got me laid more than abs ever did.[/quote]

I do not thinking anyone has advocated “hawt abzzz” instead of good jobs, responsibility, good personalities, fat wallets and guitars? Maybe they have but I have yet to see it.

Take two versions of the same exact guy (identical twins perhaps?)

Twin #1
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular but a bit chubby.

Twin #2
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular and lean with “hawt abzzz.”

Who would 99% of women on earth choose with all other things being equal?[/quote]

I don’t know 1 or 2. It’s totally made up and hypothetical, right? In your mind, obviously it’s abs. In mine, maybe not.

My wife said something out of the blue the other day about my physique. I’m not an ab model. She likes her men beefy-- I don’t mean obese, I mean big and strong looking.

I showed here som pics on here of various folks and while I won’t name names, she laughed at some of the avatars and posted pics of people who have competed saying “THAT’S ‘big’ and ‘muscular’?”

Of course, that’s my n=1 personal anecdote, so I’m not claiming that she speaks for all women or anyone but herself. Plus I got laid last night.[/quote]

For the record, I showed one girl I know some of the pics of guys who compete here also and she was not “mused”. She said she liked shape and some muscle on her men and that they looked “stringy”…but I guess I missed the tons of women who ignore overall shape at first glance and only focus on abs.

56

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I “agree” or “disagree” with people wanting to stay lean all the time…that’s their choice. And ESPECIALLY if they’re in it for chicks/looks, why would they want to get to a higher level of bf% at any point? For myself, aesthetics has generally been secondary to strength, but I certainly don’t see anything wrong with people who wanna look good, and year-round at that. [/quote]

I meant “necessarily agree with chicks digging it”, not about staying lean. Yeah, leanness is a choice. Do whatever you need to do, right?

I meant that I don’t agree that chicks dig ‘staying lean’ any more than ‘full house’ or ‘skinny’ or ‘non-descript’.

Look at the general population. There are hot chicks with regular dudes who do nothing, or are joggers, or fat, or whatever. Certain chicks dig hawt abz. They all dig good jobs and responsibility and good personalities.

Fat wallets get dudes laid more than hawt abzzz.

And guitars. Guitars got me laid more than abs ever did.[/quote]

I do not thinking anyone has advocated “hawt abzzz” instead of good jobs, responsibility, good personalities, fat wallets and guitars? Maybe they have but I have yet to see it.

Take two versions of the same exact guy (identical twins perhaps?)

Twin #1
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular but a bit chubby.

Twin #2
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular and lean with “hawt abzzz.”

Who would 99% of women on earth choose with all other things being equal?[/quote]

I don’t know 1 or 2. It’s totally made up and hypothetical, right? In your mind, obviously it’s abs. In mine, maybe not.

My wife said something out of the blue the other day about my physique. I’m not an ab model. She likes her men beefy-- I don’t mean obese, I mean big and strong looking.

I showed here som pics on here of various folks and while I won’t name names, she laughed at some of the avatars and posted pics of people who have competed saying “THAT’S ‘big’ and ‘muscular’?”

Of course, that’s my n=1 personal anecdote, so I’m not claiming that she speaks for all women or anyone but herself. Plus I got laid last night.[/quote]

Yep, completely made up and hypothetical examples.

My made up example was in no way intended to infer that your wife doesn’t like the way you look and I didn’t say anything about ab modeling. I, and others I assume, are talking about well built muscular physiques. Not hot abz Justin Beiber wannabe types.

Haven’t you leaned up a bit somewhat recently? IIRC you posted some pictures with a former pro where you had leaned up and looked pretty huge?

57

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]T-bone12 wrote:
There are many benifits to staying lean. For one- let’s be honest- chicks dig it! [/quote]

While I don’t necessarily agree with it, I think this is a primary driver for more people than will admit in the forums.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I “agree” or “disagree” with people wanting to stay lean all the time…that’s their choice. And ESPECIALLY if they’re in it for chicks/looks, why would they want to get to a higher level of bf% at any point? For myself, aesthetics has generally been secondary to strength, but I certainly don’t see anything wrong with people who wanna look good, and year-round at that. [/quote]

I meant “necessarily agree with chicks digging it”, not about staying lean. Yeah, leanness is a choice. Do whatever you need to do, right?

I meant that I don’t agree that chicks dig ‘staying lean’ any more than ‘full house’ or ‘skinny’ or ‘non-descript’.

Look at the general population. There are hot chicks with regular dudes who do nothing, or are joggers, or fat, or whatever. Certain chicks dig hawt abz. They all dig good jobs and responsibility and good personalities.

Fat wallets get dudes laid more than hawt abzzz.

And guitars. Guitars got me laid more than abs ever did.[/quote]

I do not thinking anyone has advocated “hawt abzzz” instead of good jobs, responsibility, good personalities, fat wallets and guitars? Maybe they have but I have yet to see it.

Take two versions of the same exact guy (identical twins perhaps?)

Twin #1
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular but a bit chubby.

Twin #2
Good looking guy, good jobs, very responsible, good personality, fat wallet, shredz faces off on the guitar, is quite muscular and lean with “hawt abzzz.”

Who would 99% of women on earth choose with all other things being equal?[/quote]

I don’t know 1 or 2. It’s totally made up and hypothetical, right? In your mind, obviously it’s abs. In mine, maybe not.

My wife said something out of the blue the other day about my physique. I’m not an ab model. She likes her men beefy-- I don’t mean obese, I mean big and strong looking.

I showed here som pics on here of various folks and while I won’t name names, she laughed at some of the avatars and posted pics of people who have competed saying “THAT’S ‘big’ and ‘muscular’?”

Of course, that’s my n=1 personal anecdote, so I’m not claiming that she speaks for all women or anyone but herself. Plus I got laid last night.[/quote]

For the record, I showed one girl I know some of the pics of guys who compete here also and she was not “mused”. She said she liked shape and some muscle on her men and that they looked “stringy”…but I guess I missed the tons of women who ignore overall shape at first glance and only focus on abs.

[/quote]

n=1

Lets ask Zraw how much tail he pulls.

58

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

n=1

Lets ask Zraw how much tail he pulls.[/quote]

? Zraw isn’t the average person on here claiming they compete.

Also, all of the guys I know who pull the most ass…DON’T EVEN WORKOUT REGULARLY.

59

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Haven’t you leaned up a bit somewhat recently? IIRC you posted some pictures with a former pro where you had leaned up and looked pretty huge?[/quote]

HA! That was almost exactly a year ago with Joe DeAngelis. I leaned up a little, but I float. I’m stronger at the same weight weight, maybe a couple pounds lighter than then.

For the record, I only responded to the ‘… lifting for chicks’ comment because in another recent thread, it was adamantly denied by some posters (I don’t recall the names) that any serious lifter would ‘lift for chicks’. In that thread, I was saying that I lift for me and me only. I don’t lift to be the #1 PL’er in the world, I don’t lift for chicks, I don’t lift for my wife. I do it for me to deal with my deep down shall-not-be-described-in-detail demons and that’s what drives me.

I personally think that more people lift and worry about abs exactly for ‘chicks’ whether they admit it or not.

60

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Haven’t you leaned up a bit somewhat recently? IIRC you posted some pictures with a former pro where you had leaned up and looked pretty huge?[/quote]

HA! That was almost exactly a year ago with Joe DeAngelis. I leaned up a little, but I float. I’m stronger at the same weight weight, maybe a couple pounds lighter than then.

For the record, I only responded to the ‘… lifting for chicks’ comment because in another recent thread, it was adamantly denied by some posters (I don’t recall the names) that any serious lifter would ‘lift for chicks’. In that thread, I was saying that I lift for me and me only. I don’t lift to be the #1 PL’er in the world, I don’t lift for chicks, I don’t lift for my wife. I do it for me to deal with my deep down shall-not-be-described-in-detail demons and that’s what drives me.

I personally think that more people lift and worry about abs exactly for ‘chicks’ whether they admit it or not.
[/quote]

I agree with all of this. IMO most people won’t admit it because they think it makes them look bad for some reason?

Who cares why someone else chooses to lift weights? As members of the weightlifting/fitness community we should be happy that more people are being active and trying to get in shape, no matter what the reasoning behind it.