The Staying Lean Factor

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I like the idea for this thread, a lot.

There have been some good suggestions for monitoring the amount of “fluff” you have. By far, the one I like the most is the difference between the measurement of my upper body (around my shoulders with arms at my sides) and my waist. I think if you’re going to stay lean and want to look like you lift, you need to maximize this measurement with broad shoulders and a trim waist. Currently, the difference is at 20" for me (54" v 34"). If it drops, it’s because I’m getting fluffy or missing workouts. Ideally, I try and keep it above 20".

[/quote]

Interesting point DP. I haven’t thought much about that particular ratio before.

22

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I like the idea for this thread, a lot.

There have been some good suggestions for monitoring the amount of “fluff” you have. By far, the one I like the most is the difference between the measurement of my upper body (around my shoulders with arms at my sides) and my waist. I think if you’re going to stay lean and want to look like you lift, you need to maximize this measurement with broad shoulders and a trim waist. Currently, the difference is at 19" for me (53" v 34"). If it drops, it’s because I’m getting fluffy or missing workouts. Ideally, I try and keep it above 20".

[/quote]

Are you basing that off of the “golden ratios” of bodybuilding, or just what works for you? I recall reading a few articles about the ideal ratios for different body parts to give you that “superhero” look.

EDIT: That article is awesome Pangloss.

23

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:
Are you basing that off of the “golden ratios” of bodybuilding, or just what works for you? I recall reading a few articles about the ideal ratios for different body parts to give you that “superhero” look. [/quote]

Just what works for me. Ideally, that difference keeps growing. That means I’m getting larger shoulders and a thicker back and chest while keeping my waist in check. It’s also very sensitive, I know if I’m hovering around 18" or lower, the impact of my shoulders while wearing clothes is greatly reduced by my gut.

24

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:
Do you track your macros that closely? Like within 5g of carbs?

I do see some merit to this if someone is very lean/contest prep, but otherwise it almost seems a bit excessive to get that nit picky. For example, sweet potatoes I eat every day vary in size, so some days I will be getting 5-10g more carbs than others. [/quote]
I actually just saw the video today and decided to give it a shot. I’m basically trying to accomplish what grindovermatter has already done. : )

Since starting IIFYM I’ve just shot to get as close to my macros as possible. I agree that it doesn’t make sense to stress about minutia unless you’re a physique competitor.I did order a food scale today, so things will be more accurate - but again using a mobile app to track macros makes this low stress, and I’m not neurotic about whether a food is clean or not.

1x a day I typically eat a family style or restaurant meal that will be estimated. I guess my goal is to really advance my physique/strength, but not stress about eating like I did back in the day when I tried to get 30 grams of protein every three hours haha. If I can be 90% accurate 90% of the days I’ll be very happy. This is just the approach I’ve arrived at today, I haven’t done this so don’t take my advice as expert info. hopefully I can eat more and stay leaner like grindovermatter has done very well.

25

If you are lean you can actually SEE the progress you are making, instead of hoping for it or reading it on paper based on str gains

26

[quote]zraw wrote:
If you are lean you can actually SEE the progress you are making, instead of hoping for it or reading it on paper based on str gains[/quote]

I don’t think being 10-20%(not sure what “lean” means in this thread) makes it that hard to determine whether you are gaining muscle or not

but if you are talking about people who are morbidly obese yeah maybe you are right

27

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
another thing i like about staying lean–

when i was fat kid bulking i tended to get sick A LOT, since leaning down i havent gotten sick once.[/quote]

Weird you mention that…

I was gettin ill a lot during bulking but not had one cold all +20 weeks i’ve been dieting

28

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
another thing i like about staying lean–

when i was fat kid bulking i tended to get sick A LOT, since leaning down i havent gotten sick once.[/quote]

Weird you mention that…

I was gettin ill a lot during bulking but not had one cold all +20 weeks i’ve been dieting[/quote]
yeah man, body functions better when lean

29

[quote]marshaldteach wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:
If you are lean you can actually SEE the progress you are making, instead of hoping for it or reading it on paper based on str gains[/quote]

I don’t think being 10-20%(not sure what “lean” means in this thread) makes it that hard to determine whether you are gaining muscle or not

but if you are talking about people who are morbidly obese yeah maybe you are right

[/quote]

i dont think being 10% makes it hard no.

I do think 20% makes it hard yes.

30

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
another thing i like about staying lean–

when i was fat kid bulking i tended to get sick A LOT, since leaning down i havent gotten sick once.[/quote]

Weird you mention that…

I was gettin ill a lot during bulking but not had one cold all +20 weeks i’ve been dieting[/quote]
yeah man, body functions better when lean[/quote]

I didn’t make that connection either. I haven’t been sick in about 2 years, which is about the time I leaned out from 220 down to around 200.

31

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
another thing i like about staying lean–

when i was fat kid bulking i tended to get sick A LOT, since leaning down i havent gotten sick once.[/quote]

Weird you mention that…

I was gettin ill a lot during bulking but not had one cold all +20 weeks i’ve been dieting[/quote]
yeah man, body functions better when lean[/quote]

Crazy haha!

I was always thinking oh I must not be eating enough vegetables but barely eaten any this prep and feel awesome, thanks for making me realise

32

[quote]zraw wrote:

[quote]marshaldteach wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:
If you are lean you can actually SEE the progress you are making, instead of hoping for it or reading it on paper based on str gains[/quote]

I don’t think being 10-20%(not sure what “lean” means in this thread) makes it that hard to determine whether you are gaining muscle or not

but if you are talking about people who are morbidly obese yeah maybe you are right

[/quote]

i dont think being 10% makes it hard no.

I do think 20% makes it hard yes.[/quote]

I think I gain optimally somewhere between 600 and 15000 calories per day.

33

I become less sweaty in the summer time

34

I’ve never been super lean, and TBH have bulked a bit to much at times. But a benefit I noticed was I somehow needed less sleep when I was the leanest I’ve been. I’d wakeup refreshed and ready to go after significantly less time than when I’m bulking

35

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
I’ve never been super lean, and TBH have bulked a bit to much at times. But a benefit I noticed was I somehow needed less sleep when I was the leanest I’ve been. I’d wakeup refreshed and ready to go after significantly less time than when I’m bulking[/quote]

Another good point, I no longer feel I need afternoon naps.

36

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
I’ve never been super lean, and TBH have bulked a bit to much at times. But a benefit I noticed was I somehow needed less sleep when I was the leanest I’ve been. I’d wakeup refreshed and ready to go after significantly less time than when I’m bulking[/quote]

Another good point, I no longer feel I need afternoon naps.[/quote]

maybe you were eating too many carbs (they make me sleepy)? i’m on 4k+ cals a day and never get tired… i actually have a lot of energy at like 2-3 AM which is really weird

37

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but a few comments by BlueCollarTr8n (you’re my boy, Blue!) got me thinking and because I have a small, weak mind I like thinking in precise terms. In finance, the first thing you learn is that you can not add cash flows across time. That is, a dollar today is not worth the same as a dollar tomorrow. Likewise, when talking about the individual, you can not compare levels of LBM except at similar body fat levels. This is much like Blue’s insistence of “abs in”.

If I start at %15 bf at 165lbs and grow to %25 at 220lbs, the idea that I gained 25lbs of LBM, while inherent in the mathematics, is surprisingly unhelpful and many times moves the trainee in a direction contrary to their goals. Only when the trainee has again achieved %15 can they then accurately say they’ve gained X amount of LBM.

Any thoughts? Can anyone flesh this out a bit better than I can, my brain is fried after a long week.

Hell, we could even call it Blue’s Rule, lol.

38

Eh, he said it better than I could just a few hour ago:

[quote]This is a valid point and deserves consideration. It is true that for some lifters it may be an incomplete ‘rule of thumb’ and is why I don’t specificy a BF%. These lifters represent a small % of the whole and people who have been around a while recognize them from the get go. It is directly related to a persons fat distribution. I have always used a 7 point caliper method. I have never had a scapula reading over 14 regardless of my bodyweight but have known a number of lifters with even distribution patterns that have a reading in the mid-twenties while appearing to be leaner than me in the mid-section. These are the lifters that can pull off the ‘Full House’ look. Most lifters couldn’t make that happen regardless!

I still believe that using calculations while carrying bodyfat above 14% or so, provides data that is suspect at best for determining gains/progress. That is not to say that I believe there is no benefit to training with an additional 10-15% of bodyweight [perhaps as much as 20% for some lifters] over the known ‘lean’ weight. However, after a retrun to the ‘lean’ condition the weight that remains is the gain…the rest was imaginary.

Again I believe the whole ‘how much LBM’ any given lifters has added is an indeterminable value. Yes, the ‘Full House’ lifter may need to dig deeper to bring out the mid-section, but the vascularity in other areas will be obvious as they approach single digits. Most lifters with significant development are ‘abs all in’ or very close at 10%.
[/quote]

39

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but a few comments by BlueCollarTr8n (you’re my boy, Blue!) got me thinking and because I have a small, weak mind I like thinking in precise terms. In finance, the first thing you learn is that you can not add cash flows across time. That is, a dollar today is not worth the same as a dollar tomorrow. Likewise, when talking about the individual, you can not compare levels of LBM except at similar body fat levels. This is much like Blue’s insistence of “abs in”.

If I start at %15 bf at 165lbs and grow to %25 at 220lbs, the idea that I gained 25lbs of LBM, while inherent in the mathematics, is surprisingly unhelpful and many times moves the trainee in a direction contrary to their goals. Only when the trainee has again achieved %15 can they then accurately say they’ve gained X amount of LBM.

Any thoughts? Can anyone flesh this out a bit better than I can, my brain is fried after a long week.

Hell, we could even call it Blue’s Rule, lol.[/quote]

I like your points agree. That makes sense to me.

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around where all of this muscle that is lost during the leaning out process actually goes?

I have a hard time believing that, for a intermediate+ lifter, it takes a solid year of busting your butt in the kitchen/gym to put on 10lbs of solid muscle (not counting the inevitably fat gain that accompanies this) but that in a smart, well thought out and executed diet of 12-16 weeks a trainee can lose almost that much muscle along with body fat?

not sure if the above run on sentence makes sense. If not I can clarify :slight_smile:

My theory is that most trainees overestimate how much actual muscle we actually have and mistake water/boat/glycogen/whatever with muscle weight. That is my theory.

GENERALLY Dieting = less carbs. Less carbs = less water retention. Less water retention = less weight.

A muscle with less water retention will be smaller and weigh less but it’s still the same “amount” of muscle as before right? generally speaking of course

40

And to address the extremely controversial premise of a 50-80 pound “muscle ceiling” for natural trainees of average height… Do some of you guys understand how much muscle that is?

Imagine going to the grocery store and buying a large roast, the kind mom used to cook up with potatoes and carrots. Those usually weigh between 3-5 pounds right? That is a solid chunk of 3-5 pounds of pure muscle (well almost pure muscle)

Now imagine slapping 10-20 of those roasts onto your body.

That is an INCREDIBLE amount of muscle!!! You would look ridiculous! (Speaking in terms of muscularity, obviously glueing roasts to your body would look ridiculous in and of itself :wink:

Just more of my thoughts.