[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Wives falsely accuse their soon to be ex husbands of child abuse
[/quote]
Always. As a rule. There are no exceptions. It’s just what wives do.[/quote]
Pish posh.
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
So, some women have got dressed up over-the-top-ironically-slutty and marched to reclaim the word ‘slut’. Slutwalk London: 'Yes means yes and no means no' - BBC News
This was apprently provoked by a Canadian policeman’s (reported) comments from a talk at a school where he advised kids, speaking from experience, to “avoid dressing like sluts to avoid being victimised”.
This has really upset some people, mostly women.
I think he gave good, practical advice, based on far more useful experience than any idealistic feminist wuoted on this topic has given.
Obviously, I do not condone rape. I have many sisters and torturous castration wouldn’t even begin to punish anyone who tried to rape women, in my opinion. However, I am also practical.
There are bad people in the world, rapists, killers and thieves among them. While they exist (I don’t believe we will ever have 0 rapists worldwide) we need to be realistic and deal with the world as it is.
We would advise someone (we wanted to protect from harm) to not walk in the most dark and isolated streets in a city, alone, for their protection. It is not just a liberty to be able to walk anywhere you want, in some neighbourhoods. It is naive and dangerous.
So, while realising it isn’t ‘fair’, I would advise any of my female friends, family or my girlfriend to not ‘show off’ (aka not dress slutty) to avoid drawing the attention of rapists, just the same as I would not wear flashy jewellery and chains (I wear none) or leave a ground floor window open, as much as I would like to in summer, to avoid the attention of thieves.
Am I the only one who sees it that way?[/quote]
This is all about political correctness more than anything. Of course you are making good sense, but how dare you say such a thing. Women have the right to dress like sluts. And quite frankly from what I’ve been seeing many don’t really have to look for special cloths for their “slut walk” as they are in character most of the day.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
It wasn’t his fault she lost her job. He has no responsibility to make sure she isn’t homeless. And why should he have to give her free money and then if he says he’ll only give it in exchange for sex, how is that rape??? Thats you scratch my back, i’ll scratch yours.[/quote]
Actually we do have a responsibility to our community. No, that is scratch my back or you can just walk yourself into a dangerous situation. Women on the street aren’t safe. I thought you were from the hood and would realise this.[/quote]
Like I said, if we were living in the 1950’s where men and women were realized as different and had different roles, maybe i’d agree. But this is 2011 women can “have it all”, so lets give “all” not “some”. The girl in my scenario would have to do what she has to do to pay the rent, just like a man would. I mean, isn’t this the equality feminist wanted and fought so hard for? Or are they now realizing their eyes were bigger than their stomachs?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
You know, im tired of all the double standards. We live in 2011 where “women can have it all”, but only when its to their benefit. We started off by talking about how a sober man having sex with a drunk woman should be consider rape. Lets flip the scrip. Let’s say you have a woman looking for a meal ticket. She knows a man with money. She gets him drunk (or allows him to get himself drunk) and then when he is pissy drunk, she has sex with him. She ends up pregnant and haves the baby. She then goes to court and sues him for child support. The feminist judge awards her a big child support payment. But the mans defense is that he was so drunk, he couldnt consent. He was even…raped. But the feminist judge will hear none of that. He’s stuck paying her rent, car note, and whatever else for 18 years (21 if the child goes to college).
And everybody would say “it was his fault, he should’ve watched how much he was drinking” or “he should’ve been careful of the women he dealt with” and would fully support the decision to make him pay child support.
But let a sober man have sex with a drunk woman…automatic rape. The world is supposed to stop and feel sorry and sing kumbuya.
And its not just that, we have rape shield laws where you cant even question the accusers past sexual lifestyle. So what if she spreads her legs for every tom, dick and harry that happens to come strolling by. Thats irrelevant. Im sure you all remember the Duke Lacrosse Rape case. The accuser was a known stripper/prostitute that used drugs and had a history of lying about being raped. But hey, none of that mattered! She was a woman who claimed to be raped, so the world should stop and cry with her and believe her every word.
As an aside, I wonder why you never hear about feminist complain about women being excluded from the draft. You sure would hear feminist screeching if a sitting US President said he would not appoint a woman to the Joint Chief of Staff because she was a woman. Yet women are exempt from the draft because they are women. But they are allowed to be in positions of authority in the military over men that are drafted because they are men.[/quote]
WTF is wrong with people, yes it is rape, but he shouldn’t have gotten drunk. How hard is it be a man and have some virtues.
Oh…she let me get drunk, no bullshit. You got drunk, she had non-consensual sex with you, yes that is rape. It is wrong, she should be punished. However, there is a difference between intoxicating yourself to where you can no longer reason and dressing in such fashion as to be called a ‘slut.’ [/quote]
So he shouldn’t have gotten drunk…so it’s his fault??? But if a woman gets drunk and sex happens, its the mans fault as well???
You say she should be punished, but judging from your posts, she should probably just be given a good talking to…before she collects her child support payments. You wouldn’t recommend jail time or anything like that, because she has a vagina and not a penis. On the other hand, im sure you would never think about suggesting that women should be banned from drinking alcohol. But hey, why should we ban them since men will be responsible for anything that happens while they’re drunk.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
It wasn’t his fault she lost her job. He has no responsibility to make sure she isn’t homeless. And why should he have to give her free money and then if he says he’ll only give it in exchange for sex, how is that rape??? Thats you scratch my back, i’ll scratch yours.[/quote]
Actually we do have a responsibility to our community. No, that is scratch my back or you can just walk yourself into a dangerous situation. Women on the street aren’t safe. I thought you were from the hood and would realise this.[/quote]
Like I said, if we were living in the 1950’s where men and women were realized as different and had different roles, maybe i’d agree. But this is 2011 women can “have it all”, so lets give “all” not “some”. The girl in my scenario would have to do what she has to do to pay the rent, just like a man would. I mean, isn’t this the equality feminist wanted and fought so hard for? Or are they now realizing their eyes were bigger than their stomachs?[/quote]
Clip, I agree feminism is fundamentally hypocritical since it suggests men and women are ‘equal’ and we are not, men have many inherent strengths which predispose them to dominate certain activities, and women also have talents/abilities/faculties which men do not, which allow them do do tasks which men could not (in my experience) do as well.
I don’t think you can say, in your super-extreme life or death scenarios, that it is ‘fair’ that a woman should give sex under duress or whatever. The first scenario was ‘prostitution’, straight up. Both of your scenarios had an inherent ‘economic’ quality to them; the man had some ‘thing’ either money or property, and she had to fuck to live, basically.
My point is, however shit the situation, in both your scenarios, however shit her choices, the women could choose between two options, with the better option maybe being to give sex to meet her economic or survival needs.
Rape is fundamentally about denying a person a choice. Rape is not prostitution or trade. it is power being expressed sexually, hurtfully.
The victim will not be able to come away from the situation with any ‘silver lining’ (besides, maybe, ‘I am alive’).
So I think your scenarios aren’t about rape at all.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.[/quote]
But it’s not. Rape is when you have sex with someone without consent by free will. If they do not freely consent to having sex it is rape. Doesn’t matter if force is involved or not.[/quote]
Not to split hairs, but some level of force is required, which I believe coercion fits into.[/quote]
True.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
It wasn’t his fault she lost her job. He has no responsibility to make sure she isn’t homeless. And why should he have to give her free money and then if he says he’ll only give it in exchange for sex, how is that rape??? Thats you scratch my back, i’ll scratch yours.[/quote]
Actually we do have a responsibility to our community. No, that is scratch my back or you can just walk yourself into a dangerous situation. Women on the street aren’t safe. I thought you were from the hood and would realise this.[/quote]
Like I said, if we were living in the 1950’s where men and women were realized as different and had different roles, maybe i’d agree. But this is 2011 women can “have it all”, so lets give “all” not “some”. The girl in my scenario would have to do what she has to do to pay the rent, just like a man would. I mean, isn’t this the equality feminist wanted and fought so hard for? Or are they now realizing their eyes were bigger than their stomachs?[/quote]
So you are too limp-wristed to see what is right? Gotcha.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
so it’s his fault???[/quote]
Obviously you’re reading comprehension is above the average, so I am guessing 4th grade. I never said it was his fault, I said own up to what you do. You started out your argument that she got him drunk…or let him get drunk. No the man got drunk. He should show some temperance.
And, if you read all what I actually wrote, I said yes she is guilty of rape and should be punished.
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
So I think your scenarios aren’t about rape at all. [/quote]
So you think in the second situations that is not rape?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.[/quote]
But it’s not. Rape is when you have sex with someone without consent by free will. If they do not freely consent to having sex it is rape. Doesn’t matter if force is involved or not.[/quote]
Not to split hairs, but some level of force is required, which I believe coercion fits into.[/quote]
True.[/quote]
Well then it would still not be rape, but where was the coercion in this example?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
so it’s his fault???[/quote]
Obviously you’re reading comprehension is above the average, so I am guessing 4th grade. I never said it was his fault, I said own up to what you do. You started out your argument that she got him drunk…or let him get drunk. No the man got drunk. He should show some temperance.
And, if you read all what I actually wrote, I said yes she is guilty of rape and should be punished.[/quote]
But what you wont admit is that if the situation were reversed you wouldn’t say the woman should’ve shown temperance. You keep talking around that. You won’t admit that its wrong the man now has to pay child support, but if the situation were reversed the woman could put a rape case on the man. And you probably think the woman should be “punished” much more lightly than the man. If it was a man you would just come right out and say he should be jailed.
And im not “limp wristed” or whatever. But if feminist want to pretend men and women are equal, lets pretend. Clip11 believes we should never do anything half assed. Therefore, if a woman wants the right to get drunk, then she bears the consequence of it, like a man would. If she wakes up with a stranger, she shouldn’t get so drunk next time. You wouldn’t have a problem telling a man that.
If women can be military officers, they should be required to sign up for the draft at 18, just like men. Or make it so women are forbidden to be military officers. We all now that in this politically correct society that would never go over. Although from watching tv, I always see these tough assed 125 pound women that wear make up and high heels that can beat up 10 muscular 200 pound men at one time while she’s blindfolded. I think the Navy seal team that captured Osama was made up completely of 125 pound women in make up and heels that are martial arts experts. I believe everything tv tells me.
Your double speak amuses me. Men who think like you are the reason feminists have been able to get away with what they’ve gotten for the past 50 years. After all, we cant completely blame the feminist, we have to blame the so called men that conceded to them.
If I were in charge, women who falsely accused men of rape would get the same jail time the accused would get and would have to pay back every dime the accused had to spend on lawyers and legal fees related to the case. there would be no rape shield laws, the US constitution would be strictly followed, the TSA would be a figment of your imagination and the 2A would be in full effect.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.[/quote]
But it’s not. Rape is when you have sex with someone without consent by free will. If they do not freely consent to having sex it is rape. Doesn’t matter if force is involved or not.[/quote]
Not to split hairs, but some level of force is required, which I believe coercion fits into.[/quote]
True.[/quote]
Well then it would still not be rape, but where was the coercion in this example?
[/quote]
Because chances are in a situation like the ones he described, the women felt there was no other option. They were coerced into unwillingly giving up their bodies. Were the roles reversed, I would not hesitate in saying the same thing. Those are two very specific situations where I believe it is rape.
Getting drunk and taking a guy home, then crying rape when the beer goggles wear off on the other hand… no, not rape. Pathetic on the guys part if he wasn’t equally drunk, but not rape.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.[/quote]
But it’s not. Rape is when you have sex with someone without consent by free will. If they do not freely consent to having sex it is rape. Doesn’t matter if force is involved or not.[/quote]
Not to split hairs, but some level of force is required, which I believe coercion fits into.[/quote]
True.[/quote]
Well then it would still not be rape, but where was the coercion in this example?
[/quote]
Because chances are in a situation like the ones he described, the women felt there was no other option. They were coerced into unwillingly giving up their bodies. Were the roles reversed, I would not hesitate in saying the same thing. Those are two very specific situations where I believe it is rape.
Getting drunk and taking a guy home, then crying rape when the beer goggles wear off on the other hand… no, not rape. Pathetic on the guys part if he wasn’t equally drunk, but not rape. [/quote]
What she “feels like” is of no interest to me, it is a safe bet that her judgement is not that good in the first place if she ends up with options like this.
Either she sucks his dick or she sleeps in the next park, it really is entirely up to her and not in the least bit coercive.
How could a “college” woman, be so without options? Why is a woman who is smart and resourceful enough to be in college so incapable that she MUST use her body (not her mind, education, or resourcefulness)? How can she be so without recourse? No friends? No family? No social services? No college services?
I guess, if this were a true thought experiment where the woman had no other options, then yes, perhaps it would be “force” and thus rape. But the thought experiment falls apart immediately upon looking at it in a real-world scenario. Particularly if one has a view of a woman with some capacity for action and/or thought.
eh, my 2 cents
[quote]clip11 wrote:
If I were in charge, women who falsely accused men of rape would get the same jail time the accused would get and would have to pay back every dime the accused had to spend on lawyers and legal fees related to the case. there would be no rape shield laws, the US constitution would be strictly followed, the TSA would be a figment of your imagination and the 2A would be in full effect.[/quote]
So…we’d go back to African Americans being considered 3/5 of a person?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.[/quote]
But it’s not. Rape is when you have sex with someone without consent by free will. If they do not freely consent to having sex it is rape. Doesn’t matter if force is involved or not.[/quote]
Not to split hairs, but some level of force is required, which I believe coercion fits into.[/quote]
So…if you leave the lube at home and there’s enough frictio…I mean force?
Bitches, get back in the kitchen!
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
So I think your scenarios aren’t about rape at all. [/quote]
So you think in the second situations that is not rape? [/quote]
If I remember right the scenario was “have sex with me or I will not let you stay in my house/ you will have to go outside.” If that was the scenario then that is more extortion or prostitution.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
- Cute college girl loses her job and can’t pay her rent. Theres an overweight, smelly 60 y/o man that lives across the hall from her and always oogles her that she know has the $500 she needs to pay her rent. She goes and ask him for the money. He knows she has no where to go to get the money and she will be homeless. He says he’ll give her the money…on the condition she has sex with him. She agrees, believing she has no choice. She feels very dirty afterward, and goes home to take a long hot shower. Was she raped?
[/quote]
Not at all, she’s simply taken up a new profession – Prostitution.