[quote]clip11 wrote:
By feminists definition any time a guy “manipulates” or “takes advantage” of a female to get sex is rape. Two scenarios:
Cute college girl loses her job and can’t pay her rent. Theres an overweight, smelly 60 y/o man that lives across the hall from her and always oogles her that she know has the $500 she needs to pay her rent. She goes and ask him for the money. He knows she has no where to go to get the money and she will be homeless. He says he’ll give her the money…on the condition she has sex with him. She agrees, believing she has no choice. She feels very dirty afterward, and goes home to take a long hot shower. Was she raped?
A woman and a man are at the mans cabin in the middle of the woods. Theres a big snowstorm outside and sub zero temperatures. The man tells the woman she has to have sex or leave immediatley. It would take her a couple hours to walk to the nearest civilization. And he planned it this way. He goes in the bedroom and tells her to come in the bedroom if she decides yes. If not, lock the door behind her. She decides to sleep with the guy. Was she raped?
Feminists would say yes. I would say no. They had a choice, although it may have been a shitty choice, but a choice nevertheless. You may say the men took advantage and manipulated. Still not rape. No matter how dirty or regretful the girl felt after the fact.[/quote]
Both of those are rape you filthy excuse for a human being.[/quote]
How is that rape? In the first scene, she took the money. She could’ve said no and went without. In the 2nd scene, she could’ve left. No one was forced. The first man didn’t owe it to her to give her anything, and the 2nd guy didn’t have to give any shelter if he didn’t want to.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
It wasn’t his fault she lost her job. He has no responsibility to make sure she isn’t homeless. And why should he have to give her free money and then if he says he’ll only give it in exchange for sex, how is that rape??? Thats you scratch my back, i’ll scratch yours.
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
She put herself in the situation she was in. If I were a woman reading this line of reasoning, it would piss me off.
Look at it this way, put yourself in that situation. Would you, as a man, have sex with the old man? [/quote]
Men and women are not the same when it comes to expend-ability in such cases, a single woman is much different than single man in such situations. To ask me what I would do as a man is a red herring.
For a woman to be homeless is much different than a man being homeless. To ignore this is to be unreasonable. Moreover, if it was in fact her last option before going homeless was to have sex with this man than yes it would be rape as she would be under duress, and at least it would be exploitation and legally it would be extortion.
On top of that, yes the man has a responsibility to the women and children of his community, either to pay the rent directly or help her find her local shelter and donate time, talent, or treasure to them.[/quote]
I agree with Cortes here. Remember–in the scenario SHE went to HIM. knowing a) he ogles her repeatedly and obviously is attracted to her body b) knowing he has money. In this scenario, it is VERY reasonable to conclude that she has an idea of what he is going to ask her to do to get the money BEFORE she asks him. In this scenario, as much of a scumbag as the guy might be, the girl put herself in the situation every step of the way, while ALSO very likely having an idea of what she would have to do to get the money…before she even asked the man.
So, even though she was in financial duress, i would argue that it is very likely (notice I did not say 100% true that she had to know–she could have been surprised, but I would doubt it) that she knew what was going to happen and as dirty as the man is, she basically planned the scenario.
Prostitution =/= rape.
Scenario #2 is clearly rape on many levels. The man premeditated it, planned it, and forced a decision with very real health/life risks to the woman. Clearly taken advantage of.
Clip—among many reasons, scenario #2 is rape because she is being threatened with potential denial of at least one of her natural rights (‘life’). That is the threat of physical harm, which could be extrapolated to “threat or use of force”.
Well, as long as she isn’t easy, I usually think I want to marry her, the sex will have to wait until after.[/quote]
I don’t believe that for a second. I am calling bullshit. You might RESOLVE to wait, but you WANT to have sex with her first before you realize she has a great personality, charm, intelligence, marriageable qualities etc.
There is a difference. In this scenario, this “slut dressed” woman is a complete stranger to you. And if the only reason you want to marry her is so you can have sex with her, you’re just as guilty as anyone else you charge with guilt.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Clip—among many reasons, scenario #2 is rape because she is being threatened with potential denial of at least one of her natural rights (‘life’). That is the threat of physical harm, which could be extrapolated to “threat or use of force”.
[/quote]
So if it was a man in that situation would it be considered rape?
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Rape is anything nowadays. A man can be railroaded[/quote]
Don’t have sex before marriage and this problem will subside.[/quote]
You’re talking about something different than the subject at hand.[/quote]
Agreed, and although also not on the topic of the foolsihness of slutwalking:
There is such a thing as rape within marriage. It is still rape, still fucked up. [/quote]
Clip isn’t talking about actual rape now, he’s talking about falsely being accused of rape. Wives usually don’t falsely accuse their husbands of rape.[/quote]
Wives falsely accuse their soon to be ex husbands of child abuse, I think rape is comparatively harmless compared to that.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
I think in that situation it is rape, yes.[/quote]
So you are saying that women should be deprived of the right to decide how to best express their secuality?
You know, im tired of all the double standards. We live in 2011 where “women can have it all”, but only when its to their benefit. We started off by talking about how a sober man having sex with a drunk woman should be consider rape. Lets flip the scrip. Let’s say you have a woman looking for a meal ticket. She knows a man with money. She gets him drunk (or allows him to get himself drunk) and then when he is pissy drunk, she has sex with him. She ends up pregnant and haves the baby. She then goes to court and sues him for child support. The feminist judge awards her a big child support payment. But the mans defense is that he was so drunk, he couldnt consent. He was even…raped. But the feminist judge will hear none of that. He’s stuck paying her rent, car note, and whatever else for 18 years (21 if the child goes to college).
And everybody would say “it was his fault, he should’ve watched how much he was drinking” or “he should’ve been careful of the women he dealt with” and would fully support the decision to make him pay child support.
But let a sober man have sex with a drunk woman…automatic rape. The world is supposed to stop and feel sorry and sing kumbuya.
And its not just that, we have rape shield laws where you cant even question the accusers past sexual lifestyle. So what if she spreads her legs for every tom, dick and harry that happens to come strolling by. Thats irrelevant. Im sure you all remember the Duke Lacrosse Rape case. The accuser was a known stripper/prostitute that used drugs and had a history of lying about being raped. But hey, none of that mattered! She was a woman who claimed to be raped, so the world should stop and cry with her and believe her every word.
As an aside, I wonder why you never hear about feminist complain about women being excluded from the draft. You sure would hear feminist screeching if a sitting US President said he would not appoint a woman to the Joint Chief of Staff because she was a woman. Yet women are exempt from the draft because they are women. But they are allowed to be in positions of authority in the military over men that are drafted because they are men.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
It wasn’t his fault she lost her job. He has no responsibility to make sure she isn’t homeless. And why should he have to give her free money and then if he says he’ll only give it in exchange for sex, how is that rape??? Thats you scratch my back, i’ll scratch yours.[/quote]
Actually we do have a responsibility to our community. No, that is scratch my back or you can just walk yourself into a dangerous situation. Women on the street aren’t safe. I thought you were from the hood and would realise this.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.[/quote]
But it’s not. Rape is when you have sex with someone without consent by free will. If they do not freely consent to having sex it is rape. Doesn’t matter if force is involved or not.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Well to sum it up…I only believe rape happens when force or threat of force is used. Under duress, getting drunk on your own, etc etc. is bullshit. Call me all the names you want, I really dont care.[/quote]
But it’s not. Rape is when you have sex with someone without consent by free will. If they do not freely consent to having sex it is rape. Doesn’t matter if force is involved or not.[/quote]
Not to split hairs, but some level of force is required, which I believe coercion fits into.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
She put herself in the situation she was in. If I were a woman reading this line of reasoning, it would piss me off.
Look at it this way, put yourself in that situation. Would you, as a man, have sex with the old man? [/quote]
Men and women are not the same when it comes to expend-ability in such cases, a single woman is much different than single man in such situations. To ask me what I would do as a man is a red herring.
For a woman to be homeless is much different than a man being homeless. To ignore this is to be unreasonable. Moreover, if it was in fact her last option before going homeless was to have sex with this man than yes it would be rape as she would be under duress, and at least it would be exploitation and legally it would be extortion.
On top of that, yes the man has a responsibility to the women and children of his community, either to pay the rent directly or help her find her local shelter and donate time, talent, or treasure to them.[/quote]
I agree with Cortes here. Remember–in the scenario SHE went to HIM. knowing a) he ogles her repeatedly and obviously is attracted to her body b) knowing he has money.[/quote]
She went to him because she knew he had the money, not because he oogles her. Clip put that he oogled her, but never said that is why she went over there, but posted that she went over there because she knew he had money to spare.
Say this is a Muslim girl or a Jewish girl or even a Catholic girl, you still think she should have an idea that her neighbor would expect her to have sex with him for the money?
I am much better looking than some 60 y/o smelly fat guy, if my neighbor came to me asking for 5 bills, I would not expect her to think that I expected sex even if I did have a crush on her. This shows mindset more than reality.
I don’t buy it, that is either one screwed up girl that she thinks she needs to have sex to get money or someone is putting their ideas on the situation.
[quote]So, even though she was in financial duress, i would argue that it is very likely (notice I did not say 100% true that she had to know–she could have been surprised, but I would doubt it) that she knew what was going to happen and as dirty as the man is, she basically planned the scenario.
Prostitution =/= rape.[/quote]
Lol, so basically the woman planned every step of the way to being poor where she had to beg for money and knew that she’d have to ask the old man for money and have sex with him? So, you’re saying that she basically made herself on purpose so she’d have reason to ask a smelly old man to have sex with her. Aww…okay, and a woman who is drunk knew what she was doing step by step to end up in a strangers bed where he had sex with her…okay.
[quote]
Scenario #2 is clearly rape on many levels. The man premeditated it, planned it, and forced a decision with very real health/life risks to the woman. Clearly taken advantage of.[/quote]
And, yes because homelessness is not a very real health/life risk to a woman. Clearly the old man wasn’t taking advantage of the situation and she wasn’t being taken advantage of with the real possibility of going into a non-threatening state of homelessness.
Well, as long as she isn’t easy, I usually think I want to marry her, the sex will have to wait until after.[/quote]
I don’t believe that for a second. I am calling bullshit. You might RESOLVE to wait, but you WANT to have sex with her first before you realize she has a great personality, charm, intelligence, marriageable qualities etc.
There is a difference. In this scenario, this “slut dressed” woman is a complete stranger to you. And if the only reason you want to marry her is so you can have sex with her, you’re just as guilty as anyone else you charge with guilt.[/quote]
Thanks for assuming, but you’re wrong. Maybe marriage is too far, but getting to know her is more like it…and sex, definitely not. Is it really too hard to believe that a man has a virtue these days?
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Rape is anything nowadays. A man can be railroaded[/quote]
Don’t have sex before marriage and this problem will subside.[/quote]
You’re talking about something different than the subject at hand.[/quote]
Agreed, and although also not on the topic of the foolsihness of slutwalking:
There is such a thing as rape within marriage. It is still rape, still fucked up. [/quote]
Clip isn’t talking about actual rape now, he’s talking about falsely being accused of rape. Wives usually don’t falsely accuse their husbands of rape.[/quote]
Wives falsely accuse their soon to be ex husbands of child abuse, I think rape is comparatively harmless compared to that.
[/quote]
Again, Clip isn’t talking about falsely accusations of child abuse, he’s talking about false accusations of rape.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
You know, im tired of all the double standards. We live in 2011 where “women can have it all”, but only when its to their benefit. We started off by talking about how a sober man having sex with a drunk woman should be consider rape. Lets flip the scrip. Let’s say you have a woman looking for a meal ticket. She knows a man with money. She gets him drunk (or allows him to get himself drunk) and then when he is pissy drunk, she has sex with him. She ends up pregnant and haves the baby. She then goes to court and sues him for child support. The feminist judge awards her a big child support payment. But the mans defense is that he was so drunk, he couldnt consent. He was even…raped. But the feminist judge will hear none of that. He’s stuck paying her rent, car note, and whatever else for 18 years (21 if the child goes to college).
And everybody would say “it was his fault, he should’ve watched how much he was drinking” or “he should’ve been careful of the women he dealt with” and would fully support the decision to make him pay child support.
But let a sober man have sex with a drunk woman…automatic rape. The world is supposed to stop and feel sorry and sing kumbuya.
And its not just that, we have rape shield laws where you cant even question the accusers past sexual lifestyle. So what if she spreads her legs for every tom, dick and harry that happens to come strolling by. Thats irrelevant. Im sure you all remember the Duke Lacrosse Rape case. The accuser was a known stripper/prostitute that used drugs and had a history of lying about being raped. But hey, none of that mattered! She was a woman who claimed to be raped, so the world should stop and cry with her and believe her every word.
As an aside, I wonder why you never hear about feminist complain about women being excluded from the draft. You sure would hear feminist screeching if a sitting US President said he would not appoint a woman to the Joint Chief of Staff because she was a woman. Yet women are exempt from the draft because they are women. But they are allowed to be in positions of authority in the military over men that are drafted because they are men.[/quote]
WTF is wrong with people, yes it is rape, but he shouldn’t have gotten drunk. How hard is it be a man and have some virtues.
Oh…she let me get drunk, no bullshit. You got drunk, she had non-consensual sex with you, yes that is rape. It is wrong, she should be punished. However, there is a difference between intoxicating yourself to where you can no longer reason and dressing in such fashion as to be called a ‘slut.’
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Rape is anything nowadays. A man can be railroaded[/quote]
Don’t have sex before marriage and this problem will subside.[/quote]
You’re talking about something different than the subject at hand.[/quote]
Agreed, and although also not on the topic of the foolsihness of slutwalking:
There is such a thing as rape within marriage. It is still rape, still fucked up. [/quote]
Clip isn’t talking about actual rape now, he’s talking about falsely being accused of rape. Wives usually don’t falsely accuse their husbands of rape.[/quote]
Wives falsely accuse their soon to be ex husbands of child abuse, I think rape is comparatively harmless compared to that.
[/quote]
Again, Clip isn’t talking about falsely accusations of child abuse, he’s talking about false accusations of rape.[/quote]
[quote]John S. wrote:
Who the hell blames the girls that are raped? Just because people are saying wow you went to that part of town dressed like that doesn’t mean they are blaming them, they are just calling them stupid.
If I leave my doors open then leave my apartment come back and all my stuff stolen, it is not my fault I was robbed but still people have the right to point out that I am a dumbass.
[/quote]
AGREED!
This protest march is retarded. No one in their right mind would justify rape of any sort but that doesn’t mean young women can’t take sensible steps to protect themselves.
Would these protesters take offence to a policeman advising kids not to accept lifts from strangers. Just because kidnapping is illegal and wrong.
I see a lot of girls out on a Saturday night dressed very provocatively. They are well within their rights to do so. But they are presenting themselves as easier and more attractive targets to the evil bastards of the world.