[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Rape is anything nowadays. A man can be railroaded[/quote]
Don’t have sex before marriage and this problem will subside.[/quote]
You’re talking about something different than the subject at hand.[/quote]
Agreed, and although also not on the topic of the foolsihness of slutwalking:
There is such a thing as rape within marriage. It is still rape, still fucked up.
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
So, some women have got dressed up over-the-top-ironically-slutty and marched to reclaim the word ‘slut’. Slutwalk London: 'Yes means yes and no means no' - BBC News
This was apprently provoked by a Canadian policeman’s (reported) comments from a talk at a school where he advised kids, speaking from experience, to “avoid dressing like sluts to avoid being victimised”.
This has really upset some people, mostly women.
I think he gave good, practical advice, based on far more useful experience than any idealistic feminist wuoted on this topic has given.
Obviously, I do not condone rape. I have many sisters and torturous castration wouldn’t even begin to punish anyone who tried to rape women, in my opinion. However, I am also practical.
There are bad people in the world, rapists, killers and thieves among them. While they exist (I don’t believe we will ever have 0 rapists worldwide) we need to be realistic and deal with the world as it is.
We would advise someone (we wanted to protect from harm) to not walk in the most dark and isolated streets in a city, alone, for their protection. It is not just a liberty to be able to walk anywhere you want, in some neighbourhoods. It is naive and dangerous.
So, while realising it isn’t ‘fair’, I would advise any of my female friends, family or my girlfriend to not ‘show off’ (aka not dress slutty) to avoid drawing the attention of rapists, just the same as I would not wear flashy jewellery and chains (I wear none) or leave a ground floor window open, as much as I would like to in summer, to avoid the attention of thieves.
Am I the only one who sees it that way?[/quote]
Just curious (not really) but do you wear sexy attire at the gym when you work out? You know - tanks tops or under armor. Do you dress in fitted clothes when you go out? You could very well be a victim of rape yourself.
Don’t focus on the stmt focus on the point - It doesn’t matter how you dress. If there is a sexual deviant that wants you, they will work to get it. Don’t blame the victim, castrate the rapist.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Rape is anything nowadays. A man can be railroaded[/quote]
Don’t have sex before marriage and this problem will subside.[/quote]
You’re talking about something different than the subject at hand.[/quote]
So are you, but I’m not using that as ammunition. You said that women can say the word and you’re charged with rape. If you don’t have premarital sex, then they’ll look like a fool if there is no evidence.
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Rape is anything nowadays. A man can be railroaded[/quote]
Don’t have sex before marriage and this problem will subside.[/quote]
You’re talking about something different than the subject at hand.[/quote]
Agreed, and although also not on the topic of the foolsihness of slutwalking:
There is such a thing as rape within marriage. It is still rape, still fucked up. [/quote]
Clip isn’t talking about actual rape now, he’s talking about falsely being accused of rape. Wives usually don’t falsely accuse their husbands of rape.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
By feminists definition any time a guy “manipulates” or “takes advantage” of a female to get sex is rape. Two scenarios:
Cute college girl loses her job and can’t pay her rent. Theres an overweight, smelly 60 y/o man that lives across the hall from her and always oogles her that she know has the $500 she needs to pay her rent. She goes and ask him for the money. He knows she has no where to go to get the money and she will be homeless. He says he’ll give her the money…on the condition she has sex with him. She agrees, believing she has no choice. She feels very dirty afterward, and goes home to take a long hot shower. Was she raped?
A woman and a man are at the mans cabin in the middle of the woods. Theres a big snowstorm outside and sub zero temperatures. The man tells the woman she has to have sex or leave immediatley. It would take her a couple hours to walk to the nearest civilization. And he planned it this way. He goes in the bedroom and tells her to come in the bedroom if she decides yes. If not, lock the door behind her. She decides to sleep with the guy. Was she raped?
Feminists would say yes. I would say no. They had a choice, although it may have been a shitty choice, but a choice nevertheless. You may say the men took advantage and manipulated. Still not rape. No matter how dirty or regretful the girl felt after the fact.[/quote]
Both of those are rape you filthy excuse for a human being.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
By feminists definition any time a guy “manipulates” or “takes advantage” of a female to get sex is rape. Two scenarios:
Cute college girl loses her job and can’t pay her rent. Theres an overweight, smelly 60 y/o man that lives across the hall from her and always oogles her that she know has the $500 she needs to pay her rent. She goes and ask him for the money. He knows she has no where to go to get the money and she will be homeless. He says he’ll give her the money…on the condition she has sex with him. She agrees, believing she has no choice. She feels very dirty afterward, and goes home to take a long hot shower. Was she raped?
A woman and a man are at the mans cabin in the middle of the woods. Theres a big snowstorm outside and sub zero temperatures. The man tells the woman she has to have sex or leave immediatley. It would take her a couple hours to walk to the nearest civilization. And he planned it this way. He goes in the bedroom and tells her to come in the bedroom if she decides yes. If not, lock the door behind her. She decides to sleep with the guy. Was she raped?
Feminists would say yes. I would say no. They had a choice, although it may have been a shitty choice, but a choice nevertheless. You may say the men took advantage and manipulated. Still not rape. No matter how dirty or regretful the girl felt after the fact.[/quote]
Both of those are rape you filthy excuse for a human being.[/quote]
x2
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”?
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
I think in that situation it is rape, yes.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
I think in that situation it is rape, yes.[/quote]
Why? It’s not the dirty old man’s fault she can’t pay the rent. And homeless =/= death, so it really is her choice. It may be unethical, but it certainly does not sound like he is forcing her to do anything against her will. Should he be forced to give her the money without compensation?
The second example does sound like a form of rape to me.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
She put herself in the situation she was in. If I were a woman reading this line of reasoning, it would piss me off.
Look at it this way, put yourself in that situation. Would you, as a man, have sex with the old man?
Again, in situation number one, every step of the way the girl made the choice, herself, to do what she felt needed to be done to get the money to pay the rent. That aint rape, sorry.
In general I have found that when a man is rabidly anti-feminist–when he complains loudly and intensely about women’s rights or, for example, volunteers a little gem like “if a man and a woman are in a cabin in a blizzard and the man will only allow the woman to stay in the cabin, and thereby survive, if she has sex with him, then it isn’t rape”–when a man says things like that, he is, as a general rule: (very) physically unattractive, lonely, single (not by choice), and possibly a virgin. And we might as well throw a laughably small penis into the mix too while we’re at it.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
She put herself in the situation she was in. If I were a woman reading this line of reasoning, it would piss me off.
Look at it this way, put yourself in that situation. Would you, as a man, have sex with the old man? [/quote]
Men and women are not the same when it comes to expend-ability in such cases, a single woman is much different than single man in such situations. To ask me what I would do as a man is a red herring.
For a woman to be homeless is much different than a man being homeless. To ignore this is to be unreasonable. Moreover, if it was in fact her last option before going homeless was to have sex with this man than yes it would be rape as she would be under duress, and at least it would be exploitation and legally it would be extortion.
On top of that, yes the man has a responsibility to the women and children of his community, either to pay the rent directly or help her find her local shelter and donate time, talent, or treasure to them.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
In general I have found that when a man is rabidly anti-feminist–when he complains loudly and intensely about women’s rights or, for example, volunteers a little gem like “if a man and a woman are in a cabin in a blizzard and the man will only allow the woman to stay in the cabin, and thereby survive, if she has sex with him, then it isn’t rape”–when a man says things like that, he is, as a general rule: (very) physically unattractive, lonely, single (not by choice), and possibly a virgin. And we might as well throw a laughably small penis into the mix too while we’re at it.[/quote]
I am anti-feminist, when it comes to the general use of the world feminist. I, however, consider myself a true feminist. Nevertheless, clip is not anti-feminist, he just hates women.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
In general I have found that when a man is rabidly anti-feminist–when he complains loudly and intensely about women’s rights or, for example, volunteers a little gem like “if a man and a woman are in a cabin in a blizzard and the man will only allow the woman to stay in the cabin, and thereby survive, if she has sex with him, then it isn’t rape”–when a man says things like that, he is, as a general rule: (very) physically unattractive, lonely, single (not by choice), and possibly a virgin. And we might as well throw a laughably small penis into the mix too while we’re at it.[/quote]
I am anti-feminist, when it comes to the general use of the world feminist. I, however, consider myself a true feminist. Nevertheless, clip is not anti-feminist, he just hates women. [/quote]
From what I’ve seen in this thread, you’re not at all the kind of guy I’m talking about.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Both are horrible, but with #1, are you really saying girls who sell their bodies for money because they think they have no choice are “raped”? [/quote]
Yes, she is either forced to be homeless or have sex, that is rape. Same thing as that officer who didn’t put his ‘girlfriend’ on front lead because she was having sex with him, found and charged with rape.[/quote]
She put herself in the situation she was in. If I were a woman reading this line of reasoning, it would piss me off.
Look at it this way, put yourself in that situation. Would you, as a man, have sex with the old man? [/quote]
Men and women are not the same when it comes to expend-ability in such cases, a single woman is much different than single man in such situations. To ask me what I would do as a man is a red herring.
For a woman to be homeless is much different than a man being homeless. To ignore this is to be unreasonable. Moreover, if it was in fact her last option before going homeless was to have sex with this man than yes it would be rape as she would be under duress, and at least it would be exploitation and legally it would be extortion.
On top of that, yes the man has a responsibility to the women and children of his community, either to pay the rent directly or help her find her local shelter and donate time, talent, or treasure to them.[/quote]
Exploitation I will agree with. Extortion I probably wouldn’t argue. Rape? Well, unless you want to consider just about every john who’s ever lived a rapist, I still am not seeing it. What we’re talking about here is prostitution and hard times, but the girl is still the one making the decisions. Indeed, it’s her making the offer in the first place! There are a whole lot of girls on urban street corners who “don’t” have any other “choice,” either. This kind of thinking turns their every source of income into an assault.
Don’t get me wrong. I think the hypothetical behavior would be despicable, and if it had been called exploitation from the start I would have just kept my mouth shut and continued lurking as I usually do. Rape I am not seeing, though, and I think that defining rape so broadly and indistinctly is actually dangerous to both men and women. To men initially, in that some men are going to end up falsely accused of something they neither expected nor deserved. And, in the long run, to women, in that defining rape thus will lead us where “Racism!!1!” is quickly leading: Abuse of the word has right-minded people becoming fed up with hearing it screamed as a trump card to every perceived or individually decreed wrong, and legitimate cases of racism (or rape) are going to soon become ignored or drowned out amid all of the wolf-crying.
I actually had a girl I went out with a couple times tell police that I non-consentually groped her and tried to rape her after I reported her and her dog to the apt. manager when she let her pit-bull attack my dog a over a year after we went out. Granted, if I wanted to follow through on the police report, I could have filed false police report charges against her and won, but that kind of thing is still scary and her lies temporarily hurt my reputation. After a while, people figured out I wasn’t the monster she said I was. I guess people figured out the puzzle pieces didn’t fit after a while. And she did get evicted soon after I chose to leave that apt. complex.
Rape has next to nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with power coupled with opportunity.
I wonder what you guys think about this: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/kenneth_clarke_and_his_hierarchy_of_rape
I was initially frustrated because of my countries ‘Justice Secretary’ being a fucking idiot and apparently talking of ‘better/worse’ kinds of rape… which he refused to apologise for. Just so you know it’s in this cultural context that I see the whole ‘slutwalk’ thing: I.e. a time when the executive head of my countries’ legal system seemingly thinks ‘some rape is not that bad really’ and 18 months for an admitted rapist is a fair sentence.