[quote]posthuman wrote:
Dips are essential.[/quote]
did you get results from dips? I got on triceps, but on chest I can’t find the right angle. any advice?
[quote]Duke wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I wouldn’t take advice from anyone about chest training unless they had a chest at least 50" or bigger…but that’s just me.
To clarify; it’s better to listen to someone who’s made the most PROGRESS…size doesn’t matter - total gains do. If someone started with 48" chest and progressed up to 50" (not impressive), you would be stupid to listen to that person as the “authoritive of chest building” just because they had a 50" chest.
So what you’re saying is that you’d listen to someone who’s made 10% gains, rather than someone who’s made 4% gain? Correct?
In perspective - you’d listen to a bloke who went form 38" to 42" instead of listening to a bloke who turned 48" into 50" (4%)…
No thanks, I’ll be listening to the bigger fella because that 4% would’ve been harder to get than the 10% on the skinny fella.
I hope I haven’t misunderstood your comments (clarifying Prof X?) but I disagree.[/quote]
I see this all over the place, arguing about the way something is done. Why will I disregard any of both advices? that would be stupid. If I am on the range of the skinny fella that is the advice that i need, the other one, is good but not useful until I reach that range. So, why do we have to consider anyone wrong.
And the ultimate signal of the foolishness of most post on this site, is considering everything as laws to follow, when no one has the same characteristics than other. The advice is just a hint that must be proven on your own body to see if you get results. Having said so. I would try both approaches and get MY OWN results to see which one is useful.
[quote]juanjromero wrote:
posthuman wrote:
Dips are essential.
did you get results from dips? I got on triceps, but on chest I can’t find the right angle. any advice?[/quote]
I don’t believe there is any single exercise without which training is not worth doing, however dips are a great movement. You need to play with the distribution of the weight of your lower body so that you are leaning slightly forward through the whole motion. Bend your knees and pull them up some. Too much triceps means you’re too straight up and down.
ill tell you what, i used to frown on benching too, cause ive seen countless tards and fags bench for hours and hours and hours and hours.
i spent my time in the gym doing every other single excersize i could. i got big legs, big traps, a ripped back, abs, and lost bodyfat too!
those same guys with the chicken legs, flabby belly, and huge chests that bench 350 still got the last laugh, cause im benching now, ALOT!
i experienced little growth in my biceps, triceps, and chest. i did other chest and arm excersizes that would seem worthy of growth, but nothing happened.
the answer to benching? DO IT!!
it will round out your chest, bi’, and tri’s. (and you might make some friends)
Your best bet would to start training chest twice a week. Keep the intensity high and volume moderate. Choose a heavy compound exercises first for one or two different angles then move to one or two isolation movements.
Rotate threw your exercises every three to four weeks. (this can be the angle of your heavy pressing, include flat benching) A little time and you chest will come!
[quote]juanjromero wrote:
Duke wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I wouldn’t take advice from anyone about chest training unless they had a chest at least 50" or bigger…but that’s just me.
To clarify; it’s better to listen to someone who’s made the most PROGRESS…size doesn’t matter - total gains do. If someone started with 48" chest and progressed up to 50" (not impressive), you would be stupid to listen to that person as the “authoritive of chest building” just because they had a 50" chest.
So what you’re saying is that you’d listen to someone who’s made 10% gains, rather than someone who’s made 4% gain? Correct?
In perspective - you’d listen to a bloke who went form 38" to 42" instead of listening to a bloke who turned 48" into 50" (4%)…
No thanks, I’ll be listening to the bigger fella because that 4% would’ve been harder to get than the 10% on the skinny fella.
I hope I haven’t misunderstood your comments (clarifying Prof X?) but I disagree.
I see this all over the place, arguing about the way something is done. Why will I disregard any of both advices? that would be stupid. If I am on the range of the skinny fella that is the advice that i need, the other one, is good but not useful until I reach that range. So, why do we have to consider anyone wrong.
And the ultimate signal of the foolishness of most post on this site, is considering everything as laws to follow, when no one has the same characteristics than other. The advice is just a hint that must be proven on your own body to see if you get results. Having said so. I would try both approaches and get MY OWN results to see which one is useful.
[/quote]
The point was, someone much smaller, regardless of how much actual progress they have made has ZERO experience using the weight I use on a regular basis for several reps and not just some one rep max.
It is simply EASIER to get from a 38" chest to a 46" than it is to go from 46" to 52". The latter takes REAL long term dedication for years to break past the range most people fall into. The former will make progress by simply growing up and being a man.
I train differently now than I did when I had a 48" chest because it takes a different stimulus (and much greater weight) and approach to even get a chest over 52".
This is where actual experience when it comes to my final goal wins out over someone who THINKS they know what to do.
If you are still pretty skinny, EVERYONE is bigger than you so this doesn’t even apply.
No matter what, anyone who acts like building truly large muscles shouldn’t be respected over someone much smaller is retarded, especially on this forum.
Even if there was less actual progress from point A to point B, the bigger guy knows how to be that big. The smaller does not and has no clue what that even feels like with that much weight held over them. They wouldn’t know how to maintain that size or the strategy in the gym that helps someone like that make even further progress.
The bigger guy wouldn’t have to ask what exercise leads to “optimal chest growth” because they would have already found it.
Most of the people in this thread are just throwing out theory.
[quote]AlteredState wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I think the bench press works just fine to build the chest in most people. All this “the triceps are what really press the bar” has probably come from Westside’s influence in the general strength training community which, while it’s true for triple-ply geared lifters, it’s not true for someone who trains in a t-shirt.
The problem is, the powerlifters never actually come out and say this in their articles. Not that they’re trying to deceive people, they probably just assume that people will know they are referring to a powerlifting bench press, but not everybody does.
Think about it. Humeral adduction is a major action in the bench press. This can be accomplished by the pectorals, the deltoid, or both. Why would your body mysteriously decide not to use the far larger pectoral muscles in favor of the relatively tiny anterior deltoid?
It’s called ‘synergistic dominance’. Look it up.[/quote]
…and that won’t change what he wrote at all. Yes, there are SOME people who seem to only get shoulder activation or triceps at the expense of their chest when doing a bench press, but are you claiming this is the majority? When I bench press, my CHEST gets pumped and sore.
If someone happens to be one of those in the minority who can’t feel their chest working with a bench press, then they should try either the decline, dips, or maybe simply try dumbbells on the flat bench.
None of that takes away the significance of the bench press. It has its place. It just isn’t the beginning and end of all chest training. It is over-hyped just like the infallible deadlift
[quote]ericmillah wrote:
ill tell you what, i used to frown on benching too, cause ive seen countless tards and fags bench for hours and hours and hours and hours.
i spent my time in the gym doing every other single excersize i could. i got big legs, big traps, a ripped back, abs, and lost bodyfat too!
those same guys with the chicken legs, flabby belly, and huge chests that bench 350 still got the last laugh, cause im benching now, ALOT!
i experienced little growth in my biceps, triceps, and chest. i did other chest and arm excersizes that would seem worthy of growth, but nothing happened.
the answer to benching? DO IT!!
it will round out your chest, bi’, and tri’s. (and you might make some friends)[/quote]
I am very sceptical about the benefits of this excercise, but as always, i will give it a try. Any advice on how did you find it useful? Was your form? what were you doing bad, that dislike you. your experience is similar to mine, there is a friend of mine: pot belly, 300bencher, with a body not to be jealous of except his bif (a little fatty) the chest.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
juanjromero wrote:
Duke wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I wouldn’t take advice from anyone about chest training unless they had a chest at least 50" or bigger…but that’s just me.
To clarify; it’s better to listen to someone who’s made the most PROGRESS…size doesn’t matter - total gains do. If someone started with 48" chest and progressed up to 50" (not impressive), you would be stupid to listen to that person as the “authoritive of chest building” just because they had a 50" chest.
The bigger guy wouldn’t have to ask what exercise leads to “optimal chest growth” because they would have already found it.
Most of the people in this thread are just throwing out theory.[/quote]
Prof. I don’t question the expertise of more growed posters, they know the path. but, we tend (?) to forget our first steps, could you give advice to a child on how to start walking, you can say some general information like, move your feet ahead.
On this matter, we, begginers as more experienced man, come to this thread to see what we get for us at our level. if the opinion of someone matches my needs I could use it. Maybe, if you are a trainer, have seen the mistakes of begginers and could advice against them and reinforce the good ones.
My point is, we should not reject no one opinion based on his size, most people don’t upload pics, so we don’t have a way to know the results of his ‘tactics’, but, by asking and not closing the mind, we could ask questions that clarifies if the advice is worth trying or not.
A person like you, could ask something clever, that will make me clear if i will waste the time, letting me know the why, instead of no knowing why, which will not create my experience to filter good advice from the bad ones.
I want to state I know certainly that you give good advice. In a general way, but good. But on this one, you lost your feet by saying: i will not let an skinnier tell me anything. Just post some of your doubts.
And we all will be benefited by your knowledge and the poster experience. who knows, may be both of you and by that us, will learn something.
I agree totally with the theory part. there is where you come into, ask the practical questions, that will validate or dismiss that theory. Please, don’t just reject. you are a teacher here man!, not an inquisidor.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
AlteredState wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
None of that takes away the significance of the bench press. It has its place. It just isn’t the beginning and end of all chest training. It is over-hyped just like the infallible deadlift[/quote]
I think there is an article about pre-fatigue to learn to feel the chest on beching. I do like DL, i do think it is infallible, bench, from a begginer viewpoint like mine, I am not sure.
To develop the whole upper body: Yes.
To grow chest: uhm… not sure.
[quote]juanjromero wrote:
<<< My point is, we should not reject no one opinion based on his size, >>>[/quote]
Until somebody has a firm grip on what THEY’RE doing for themselves listening to just everybody will lead to confusion pretty quick. Guys who are well beyond where they are or who have trained some guys who wound up that way are their best bet.
It’s also a good idea for folks not to try and correct and advise people who are more advanced than they are because they read something. At your stage of the game the more technical it sounds the more useless it probably is.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
juanjromero wrote:
<<< My point is, we should not reject no one opinion based on his size, >>>
Until somebody has a firm grip on what THEY’RE doing for themselves listening to just everybody will lead to confusion pretty quick. Guys who are well beyond where they are or who have trained some guys who wound up that way are their best bet.
It’s also a good idea for folks not to try and correct and advise people who are more advanced than they are because they read something. At your stage of the game the more technical it sounds the more useless it probably is.
[/quote]
So, how does your post improves our decision on bench?
[quote]natesfitness wrote:
Your best bet would to start training chest twice a week. Keep the intensity high and volume moderate. Choose a heavy compound exercises first for one or two different angles then move to one or two isolation movements.
Rotate threw your exercises every three to four weeks. (this can be the angle of your heavy pressing, include flat benching) A little time and you chest will come![/quote]
This is my philosophy, too.
I’m 35 and am finding that my pecs don’t respond with growth like they used to. Tough titty for me, so to speak. I have increased the frequency of my chest workouts to ahieve the same growth.
Also, any one exercise is just a cog in the machine. Arguing about whether or not the bench is the best chest exercise or not is pointless for my regimen. The growth comes from a combination of movements, all equally important.
flat-bench, inclines, declines, flyes, B-bell presses, dips, cable crossovers… they all contribute to my development.
[quote]Dreames wrote:
Also, any one exercise is just a cog in the machine. Arguing about whether or not the bench is the best chest exercise or not is pointless for my regimen. The growth comes from a combination of movements, all equally important.
[/quote]
But the first post was asking to debate, because the OP (as me) is confused about spending time on benching to grow the chest, and asking for alternatives to make it grow. I have seen than by using the db at first, and later going to peck deck.
Or bench first and later db, i see my chest growing and shaping nicely. but that is just for me, i am not sure if that will work for anyone else. Maybe the real bodybuilders could enlight us about why I see results and whether my little (minimal) experience will be worth enough, to help another skinnies like me to grow.
The bench press has become a popular exercise, probably the most commonly performed in fact, apart from the ez bar curl.
alot of people are put off the bench due to the amount of wimps who give it a bad image, but when its done properly, and with big weight it will hit your chest like nothing else.
Of course you should vary between dumbells and bars and do partials reps using the rack and a block, floor presses etc.
lets not forget dips.
Bottom line, bench pressing is good for upper body development, trust me when you reach the point when you have gained 15% on your current max, your chest will look alot different.
[quote]irishpowerhouse wrote:
The bench press has become a popular exercise, probably the most commonly performed in fact, apart from the ez bar curl.
alot of people are put off the bench due to the amount of wimps who give it a bad image, but when its done properly, and with big weight it will hit your chest like nothing else.
Of course you should vary between dumbells and bars and do partials reps using the rack and a block, floor presses etc.
lets not forget dips.
Bottom line, bench pressing is good for upper body development, trust me when you reach the point when you have gained 15% on your current max, your chest will look alot different. [/quote]
Ok, I get it, maybe it is an excercise that has to be done from the beggining just to learn it. And once we reach the level, it takes the place it deserves on our workout as growth driver. would you agree with that?
[quote]juanjromero wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
juanjromero wrote:
<<< My point is, we should not reject no one opinion based on his size, >>>
Until somebody has a firm grip on what THEY’RE doing for themselves listening to just everybody will lead to confusion pretty quick. Guys who are well beyond where they are or who have trained some guys who wound up that way are their best bet.
It’s also a good idea for folks not to try and correct and advise people who are more advanced than they are because they read something. At your stage of the game the more technical it sounds the more useless it probably is.
So, how does your post improves our decision on bench?[/quote]
It was general principle and meant to be helpful. I wasn’t putting anybody down.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
juanjromero wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
juanjromero wrote:
<<< My point is, we should not reject no one opinion based on his size, >>>
Until somebody has a firm grip on what THEY’RE doing for themselves listening to just everybody will lead to confusion pretty quick. Guys who are well beyond where they are or who have trained some guys who wound up that way are their best bet.
It’s also a good idea for folks not to try and correct and advise people who are more advanced than they are because they read something. At your stage of the game the more technical it sounds the more useless it probably is.
So, how does your post improves our decision on bench?
It was general principle and meant to be helpful. I wasn’t putting anybody down.[/quote]
I don’t think you are trying to put anyone down, I have read some post of you and I think you have something to contribute on this matter. does really bench with bar is equivalent to DL and squat?
I have seen my upper body shape better from just dl than I got from bench. The most memorable thing about bench (with a trainer) was hurting my shoulder. I sent to hell the bar+bench. Started db. He said I was not going far enough and hurted my shoulder.
That is why I don’t trust the “most experienced” guys, because they under rates the begginer experience and some of them take revenge on what their mentors did with them: “you have to suffer as I did”, seem to be their motto.
I would add, as begginer that I am, that doing this would be a working approach, not the better, nor the only one:
Try every chest excercise you find on this place, use them for three weeks in groups of three. Write down every one, and see which of them gives you the most results, believe me, you will know just by walking and feeling your chest popping. Just try and error method, which in fact I think is the only final method.
I believe that bodybuilding as in sex, technique, is extremly personal, and anyone could advice you, but never really teach you how to do it.