The Real Iraq

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
I’ll spend a little time hitting those up. I might even post about the conclusion I come to. It’s not impossible, they might be doing it to piss of the coalition but you should consider that there are better reasons for Iran not to support the Taliban, so I’d be careful about what they’re basing the info on. If they are, it’s a pretty stupid move in my opinion.

One thing Iran could have done would have buried the hatchet with the US and came to an agreement to destroy the Taliban once and for all. Then, I would venture, they would have no opposition for civil nuclear power whatsoever. But they have to take the hardest line against us as usual. Because of something which happened over 50 years ago.[/quote]

I never thought I’d say this but Sikkario put it well. They have every right to be angry with you, and to be distrustful of you. Can you imagine how you would react to a country that overthrew your democratic government to install a dictator?

And why should Iran try to bury the hatchet with you? Your government has made zero effort to do so, and continues to aggravate their country.

[quote]Sikkario wrote:
Sikkario- 2
NeoCons- 0[/quote]

Ataturk was from Turkey. And there should be more people like him.

"I mean, do you honestly think Iran owes the USA an apology?

Cuz it looks to me the only thing they have done is expell the USA from their land after they trampled all over their sovereignity"

Never said anything about an apology. I just said they should have began dialogue with us.

They did a lot more than expell USA from their land. Did you hear about the hostage crisis? Hezbollah, the death of the Marines in Lebanon? Supporting global terrorism?

Downplay the actions of the Iranians, that’s what you’re good at.

[quote]will to power wrote:
And why should Iran try to bury the hatchet with you? Your government has made zero effort to do so, and continues to aggravate their country. [/quote]

Why not? Why not take the high road?

The Iranians have attacked our troops in Iraq, aid our enemies in Afghanistan, held our people hostage, sponsor terrorism and murdered our marines in Lebanon, why should we make effort to deal with them?

Is this not the equally as bad as installing a dictator?

Why are their actions right and ours wrong? If they can not forgive us for what we have done 50 years ago, why should we forgive them for what they have done in the past 30?

So no one gives an inch and we are where we are. Typical.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
And why should Iran try to bury the hatchet with you? Your government has made zero effort to do so, and continues to aggravate their country.

Why not? Why not take the high road?

The Iranians have attacked our troops in Iraq, aid our enemies in Afghanistan, held our people hostage, sponsor terrorism and murdered our marines in Lebanon, why should we make effort to deal with them?

Is this not the equally as bad as installing a dictator?

Why are their actions right and ours wrong? If they can not forgive us for what we have done 50 years ago, why should we forgive them for what they have done in the past 30?

So no one gives an inch and we are where we are. Typical.[/quote]

Are you serious? Even if we ignore history, your current President has been trying to excuse an invasion of Iran. This is not olive branch inspiring stuff.

As Baghdad is hit by a bloodshed wave, the iCasualties count reached 4000.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Hence why I put his name in quotations, as the man we deposed from democratically elected authority in Iran was the “Ataturk” of Iran.

[quote]Why not? Why not take the high road?..
Is this not the equally as bad as installing a dictator?..So no one gives an inch and we are where we are. Typical.[/quote]
The Shah was bad ya…but I think the reason they are pissed is the fact that we armed and openly supported a ruthless dictator that killed in 1 in 70 Iranians, and whiped out a whole generation of young men.

We aided this dictator in every way possible, his name was Saddam Hussein.

Iran is distrustful of the USA and wants them out of the Middle East for this reason.

If we were willing to put a madman in charge of Iraq the first time and arm him to the teeth, what are we trying to pull now?

Saddam’s rise to power was aided by the CIA.

He was an ally against Islamists and Soviets alike.

You remember all those secular dictators world wide we supported and at times even fostered?

Saddam was one of them. They remember even if you don’t, I mean how could they forget, 1 in 70 of their people died from that bullshit.

Isn’t that you’re reasoning behind the Jews and the Holocaust? When such a large amount of people die in your civilization, it’s difficult to forgive, forget and most especially surrender.


While we’re on the subject of Marines getting whacked in Lebanon. That was bad, but I don’t know of any regular Iranian forces involved in that. I think Iran is within their sphere of influence if they support groups in the Middle East. I mean aside from promoting terrorism and destruction in the Americas…didn’t the USA, support the Israeli destruction of Beirut. And the most recent terror bombing campaign of the country, that didn’t kill just “Islamic Extremists.” But fell on a Lebanese apartment building full of woman and children, and murdered a large amount of Christian human beings as well?

And Condoleeza Rice was quick to defend this actions?

People act like the Israelis are at war with a Muslim aggressor, but if this is religious, then remember, they kill Chrisitans too, they’ve killed alot of Catholics.

If that doesn’t bother you, I don’t know what would.

Judaism, a religion of peace?

The reason why you NeoCons, are having such a hard time, is= You try to put the USA and Israel on a moral high ground. It’s easy to pull out the base from this position.

Once you do this, the USA, just looks aggressive, and imperialist.

Noone here is arguing that Iran is a dream society, or Russia is the New Rome or that Arafat was the second coming of Christ.

It’s the Neo-Con War Mongers, who look like retards because they talk of some kind moral righteousness in the actions of a nation led by a drunk, draft dogdger, drunk driver, ex coke addict oligarch who talks to jesus personally and can’t speak english well.

It’s easy to shoot your position down, and you will always be wrong.

Noone in this thread, or in this forum, has a problem with the USA defending its interests or its own nation. But I think anyone with a half a brain can see, that the USA is not a righteous or moral nation when compared to another and does not deserve the title of protector of humanity world-wide.

It fails at any attempt it has made thus far, and just looks dumber and dumber, drives it own people into more insecure positions, and draws more hatred and makes more enemies world wide.

If you think I’m lying, then let me ask you, who hates Switzerland?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

The US is not doing anything wrong, so your last sentence is meaningless.

LOL! Rainjack is posting drunk again.

Dustin

Stone sober, kiddo.

Tell me the wrong we are doing. Please. I guess upholding UN resolutions are illegal in your eyes?

Let me clue you in - unpopular is not the same thing as wrong.

Now run and play. [/quote]

Those same resolutions that Israel violates, yet the U.S. supports them.

The U.S. violated international law by invading a country (Iraq) that posed no direct threat to us. That’s not even debateable.

The U.S. upholds UN resolutions when it suits them.

Quit trying to pander the U.S. off as the World moral agent of Freedom and Democracy.

States are not moral agents, it goes against their nature.

“Now run and play”? Please, since you like to do all this tough guy posturing, why don’t you re-enlist and show us how tough you are?

Dustin

[quote]rainjack wrote:

You are the last one to be cluing anyone in on anything except maybe when the subject is how to rape a 12 year-old girl.

[/quote]

In all seriousness, why do you keep making these comments about Lixy and child rape? Did I miss something where Lixy advocated this behavior?

Dustin

[quote]Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You are the last one to be cluing anyone in on anything except maybe when the subject is how to rape a 12 year-old girl.

In all seriousness, why do you keep making these comments about Lixy and child rape? Did I miss something where Lixy advocated this behavior?

Dustin

[/quote]

Ya I was kind of clueless about this too. I’m interested to find out what he is talking about.

[quote]Sikkario wrote:
Ataturk was from Turkey. And there should be more people like him.
Hence why I put his name in quotations, as the man we deposed from democratically elected authority in Iran was the “Ataturk” of Iran.

Why not? Why not take the high road?..
Is this not the equally as bad as installing a dictator?..So no one gives an inch and we are where we are. Typical.
The Shah was bad ya…but I think the reason they are pissed is the fact that we armed and openly supported a ruthless dictator that killed in 1 in 70 Iranians, and whiped out a whole generation of young men.

We aided this dictator in every way possible, his name was Saddam Hussein.

Iran is distrustful of the USA and wants them out of the Middle East for this reason.

If we were willing to put a madman in charge of Iraq the first time and arm him to the teeth, what are we trying to pull now?

Saddam’s rise to power was aided by the CIA.

He was an ally against Islamists and Soviets alike.

You remember all those secular dictators world wide we supported and at times even fostered?

Saddam was one of them. They remember even if you don’t, I mean how could they forget, 1 in 70 of their people died from that bullshit.

Isn’t that you’re reasoning behind the Jews and the Holocaust? When such a large amount of people die in your civilization, it’s difficult to forgive, forget and most especially surrender.


While we’re on the subject of Marines getting whacked in Lebanon. That was bad, but I don’t know of any regular Iranian forces involved in that. I think Iran is within their sphere of influence if they support groups in the Middle East. I mean aside from promoting terrorism and destruction in the Americas…didn’t the USA, support the Israeli destruction of Beirut. And the most recent terror bombing campaign of the country, that didn’t kill just “Islamic Extremists.” But fell on a Lebanese apartment building full of woman and children, and murdered a large amount of Christian human beings as well?

And Condoleeza Rice was quick to defend this actions?

People act like the Israelis are at war with a Muslim aggressor, but if this is religious, then remember, they kill Chrisitans too, they’ve killed alot of Catholics.

If that doesn’t bother you, I don’t know what would.

Judaism, a religion of peace?

The reason why you NeoCons, are having such a hard time, is= You try to put the USA and Israel on a moral high ground. It’s easy to pull out the base from this position.

Once you do this, the USA, just looks aggressive, and imperialist.

Noone here is arguing that Iran is a dream society, or Russia is the New Rome or that Arafat was the second coming of Christ.

It’s the Neo-Con War Mongers, who look like retards because they talk of some kind moral righteousness in the actions of a nation led by a drunk, draft dogdger, drunk driver, ex coke addict oligarch who talks to jesus personally and can’t speak english well.

It’s easy to shoot your position down, and you will always be wrong.

Noone in this thread, or in this forum, has a problem with the USA defending its interests or its own nation. But I think anyone with a half a brain can see, that the USA is not a righteous or moral nation when compared to another and does not deserve the title of protector of humanity world-wide.

It fails at any attempt it has made thus far, and just looks dumber and dumber, drives it own people into more insecure positions, and draws more hatred and makes more enemies world wide.

If you think I’m lying, then let me ask you, who hates Switzerland?[/quote]

Not a bad post for someone who lists their profile occupation as “Gangsta”.

Dustin

Good post Sikkario.

Dustin, did you get my PM?

[quote]Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You are the last one to be cluing anyone in on anything except maybe when the subject is how to rape a 12 year-old girl.

In all seriousness, why do you keep making these comments about Lixy and child rape? Did I miss something where Lixy advocated this behavior? [/quote]

Here’s where it started. Read and judge for yourself.

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1814017&pageNo=0

And for some unknown reason, RJ thinks I’m a woman.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You are the last one to be cluing anyone in on anything except maybe when the subject is how to rape a 12 year-old girl.

In all seriousness, why do you keep making these comments about Lixy and child rape? Did I miss something where Lixy advocated this behavior?

Here’s where it started. Read and judge for yourself.

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1814017&pageNo=0

And for some unknown reason, RJ thinks I’m a woman.[/quote]

No - I think you are a little girl.

[quote]Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

The US is not doing anything wrong, so your last sentence is meaningless.

LOL! Rainjack is posting drunk again.

Dustin

Stone sober, kiddo.

Tell me the wrong we are doing. Please. I guess upholding UN resolutions are illegal in your eyes?

Let me clue you in - unpopular is not the same thing as wrong.

Now run and play.

Those same resolutions that Israel violates, yet the U.S. supports them.

The U.S. violated international law by invading a country (Iraq) that posed no direct threat to us. That’s not even debateable.

The U.S. upholds UN resolutions when it suits them.

Quit trying to pander the U.S. off as the World moral agent of Freedom and Democracy.

States are not moral agents, it goes against their nature.

“Now run and play”? Please, since you like to do all this tough guy posturing, why don’t you re-enlist and show us how tough you are?

Dustin

[/quote]

If countries can’t be moral, they can’t be immoral either. We are looking after our interests - and there is no sin in that - no matter what the fucking french have to say about it.

I tried re-einlisting. But I am too old. I do, however give about $1000/month to various troop support organizations and I try to give as much as I can to individual soldiers when they contact me.

If you post like a kid, I will respond in kind.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

If countries can’t be moral, they can’t be immoral either. We are looking after our interests - and there is no sin in that - no matter what the fucking french have to say about it.
[/quote]

So Nazi Germany was not immoral? My point is that countries are not moral agents. That is a truism, yet there are many here that would try to say otherwise. Some are worse than other, yes, but none are moral.

I’m not really concerned with French either, not sure what that has to do with anything.

Well, thanks for doing that. Maybe your not as big douche bag as you think you are.

If I PM you, does that mean you’ll write me a check? Or, at least send me some CAO cigars?

Well, you did say that the U.S. didn’t do anything wrong, so I responded with an equally silly remark.

But, since you are “too old”, as you put it, I won’t hold that against you when you make senile remarks.

Yes, I’m just kidding

Dustin

[quote]Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

If countries can’t be moral, they can’t be immoral either. We are looking after our interests - and there is no sin in that - no matter what the fucking french have to say about it.

So Nazi Germany was not immoral? My point is that countries are not moral agents. That is a truism, yet there are many here that would try to say otherwise. Some are worse than other, yes, but none are moral.[/quote]

I don’t think the US involvement is immoral. It may not be moral, either.

I used the French to represent the Euro’s. Chirac was pretty vocal in the demonizing of the US a few years back, but was caught with his hand in the OFF cookie jar. Most Euro’s hands are bloody in this, either by taking bribes like France, or through their hypocrisy.

If it will help you understand better, just substitute “fucking Europeans” for “fucking french”.

That means if anyone in theater needs anything, I will do everything I can to see that they get it. I’m not an expert in contraband, so I like to keep it on the legal side.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

If I PM you, does that mean you’ll write me a check? Or, at least send me some CAO cigars?

That means if anyone in theater needs anything, I will do everything I can to see that they get it. I’m not an expert in contraband, so I like to keep it on the legal side.

[/quote]

The Army is weird about certain things being “contraband”. Cigars, like the kind I mentioned, are not contraband, but porn is. No one really says anything until one tries to leave theater with porn. Then it gets confiscated. I’m not sure what they expect guys to do for a 15 month deployment.

Dustin

[quote]Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

If I PM you, does that mean you’ll write me a check? Or, at least send me some CAO cigars?

That means if anyone in theater needs anything, I will do everything I can to see that they get it. I’m not an expert in contraband, so I like to keep it on the legal side.

The Army is weird about certain things being “contraband”. Cigars, like the kind I mentioned, are not contraband, but porn is. No one really says anything until one tries to leave theater with porn. Then it gets confiscated. I’m not sure what they expect guys to do for a 15 month deployment.

Dustin[/quote]

Don’t ask - Don’t tell

This is the most disturbing account of the shit being done in Iraq I have seen. This war and attack on the Iraqi people by the USA should have never happened, and I sure hope the next White House administration apologizes for this so we can put this somber page behind us.

Winter Soldiers Sound Off

[i]Jason Moon suffers from persistent insomnia as he wrestles with memories of his time in Iraq. �??While on our initial convoy into Iraq in early June 2003, we were given a direct order that if any children or civilians got in front of the vehicles in our convoy, we were not to stop, we were not to slow down, we were to keep driving,�?? says the former National Guard and Army Reserve member. �??In the event an insurgent attacked us from behind human shields, we were supposed to count. If there were thirty or less civilians we were allowed to fire into the area. If there were over thirty, we were supposed to take fire and send it up the chain of command. These were the rules of engagement. I don�??t know about you, but if you are getting shot at from a crowd of people, how fast are you going to count, and how accurately?�??

Moon is taking part in Winter Soldier. This is public testimony organized by the Iraq Veterans Against the War about the human consequences of failed U.S. policy in the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. The group takes its name from the Winter Soldier testimony by Vietnam Vets, including John Kerry, in 1971, which played a part in turning public opinion against that war.

�??We�??ve heard from the politicians, from the generals, from the media�??now it�??s our turn,�?? said Kelly Dougherty, executive director of Iraq Veterans Against the War. Dougherty, who served in Iraq in 2003 as a military police officer, said, �??It�??s not going to be easy to hear what we have to say. It�??s not going to be easy for us to tell it. But we believe that the only way this war is going to end is if the American people truly understand what we have done in their name.�??

When I was reporting from Iraq for eight months on and off between November 2003 and February 2005, Iraqis told me of atrocities U.S. soldiers were committing. The accounts now from soldiers themselves confirm an awful picture.

�??An Iraqi was once selling soda out of a motorcycle to soldiers in a waiting convoy,�?? says Moon. �??In the side-car was his seven-to-eight-year-old child. When the man refused to go away, the MP on patrol put him to the ground with a gun to his head and started stripping his vehicle and searching it. They then took the child, picked it up into the air, and threw it full force onto the ground. I didn�??t see the child get up.�??
Moon says soldiers devised cruel tricks to play on Iraqi kids. �??Whenever we arrived in an area, we did so along with support vehicles with the radios, tractor trailers, bulldozers, and graters,�?? he says. �??So we would park those in a circle with yellow police tape around. Iraqis had to stand outside that tape as we stood inside the tape, armed and ready. That was our little base of operations. Soldiers would place a $20 bill in the sand with a little bit showing and walk over to the other side of the vehicles and wait for a kid to charge under the tape to try to get the bill, which was equal to an average monthly salary there. If some kid was stupid enough to take the bait they would chase him, trying to hit him with the end of their bayonet or the butt of their rifle.�??

Moon says his section sergeant would rally the troops every day in the motor pool with, �??I hope I get to kill me a haji today. I hope I get to shoot somebody today.�??

Moon tells me of a soldier in his tent who used to boast of swerving intentionally to hit the kids that rushed to pick the food tossed by patrol members and to run over the food so the kids couldn�??t get it. �??It was a game,�?? Moon said. �??When the soldier who had thrown the food asked him why he had done it he said, �??Yeah, I want to hit one of them. I want to kill one of those kids.�?? �??

Moon brought back a video that shows his sergeant declaring, �??The difference between an insurgent and an Iraqi civilian is whether they are dead or alive.�?? Moon explains the thinking: �??If you kill a civilian he becomes an insurgent because you retroactively make that person a threat.�??

Following a long family tradition, Cliff Hicks joined the military at seventeen in 2002 because �??we had been attacked, so it seemed like the right time.�?? He served from October 2003 to August 2004. He admits that he and other soldiers with him have been physically abusive towards Iraqi civilians. �??Hell yeah, that happened,�?? he says. �??That was extremely common. My platoon leader, a lieutenant, broke the arm of an old man because he was being difficult.�??

Hicks tells one story of how he himself beat up an Iraqi detainee.

�??One night on a foot patrol in Baghdad, we found a thirty-year-old Iraqi who we were told had an attitude,�?? he says. �??He acted like he wanted to fight with us, so we all jumped on him and beat the shit out of him. I zip-stripped him with plastic handcuffs behind his back, dragged him to a pole and tied him to it, guarding him while the rest of my platoon ran into his house to raid it. He was yelling and screaming and talking to the crowd. I�??m eighteen years old and alone, guarding this guy in downtown Baghdad late at night. He�??s talking to this massive crowd behind me. I couldn�??t get him to shut up . . . so I just beat the shit out of him. The whole time it freaked me out: He�??s a prisoner, totally defenseless, you�??re not supposed to beat up prisoners, but for all I knew this guy was telling his friends to kill me.�??

Living under daily threat took a psychological toll. �??Insane driving was even more common than beating people�??s asses: 99 percent of the time you drive around in Iraq, and 99 percent of the way you get killed in Iraq is driving your vehicle into something that blows up,�?? Hicks says. �??So you�??re driving, scared to death, pissed off, you have a vehicle commander who�??s looking at a map, yelling at a radio, being an asshole, and criticizing everything you do. He�??s freaked out because he doesn�??t want you to do anything stupid, and you don�??t want to do anything stupid. Our tanks weigh seventy tons, our Humvees six tons, and we drove as fast as we possibly could.�??

The temptation to misuse their powerful vehicles sometimes got the better of the soldiers. Iraqis �??have these stands where they sell kebabs, motor oil, gas, and stuff, and one time we just got off the road and plowed through a whole row of these things,�?? he says. �??We would just cruise through, make everybody run away. We would run over empty cars. I remember one time I saw a really shiny Mercedes. I asked my tank commander, �??Sir, can I crush that car?�?? He didn�??t say yes, but he said, �??I didn�??t see anything.�?? So I ran over the car.�??

The language barrier also contributed to the abuse, Hicks says. �??We didn�??t have interpreters half the time when I was there,�?? he says. �??We couldn�??t communicate. They are not doing what you need them to do, so you freak out and beat the crap out of people all the time over there. It happened so much it�??s not even worthy of note. People are just constantly getting their asses kicked over there, for no reason.�??

What�??s going on in Iraq seems to reflect what the psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton calls �??atrocity-producing situations.�?? He used this term first in his book The Nazi Doctors. In 2004, he wrote an article for The Nation applying his insights to the Iraq War and occupation. �??Atrocity-producing situations,�?? he wrote, occur when a power structure sets up an environment where �??ordinary people, men or women no better or worse than you or I, can regularly commit atrocities. . . . This kind of atrocity-producing situation . . . surely occurs to some degrees in all wars, including World War II, our last �??good war.�?? But a counterinsurgency war in a hostile setting, especially when driven by profound ideological distortions, is particularly prone to sustained atrocity�??all the more so when it becomes an occupation.�??

Moon and Hicks testify to that. Their stories were vetted by Iraq Veterans Against the War, and the dates they served, and the units they served with, all checked out. While their service in Iraq was several years ago, other accounts from soldiers who have been there more recently bear out their experiences.

Hicks confirms reports of illegal detention of innocent Iraqis and willful destruction of their property. �??You drive around Baghdad and most of these houses don�??t have numbers, none of the streets are named, all the houses and streets look the same, and the interpreters, half the time they don�??t even know where the hell they are,�?? he says. �??So we�??re always raiding the wrong house but you still have to bring in some prisoners. You can�??t come back without prisoners. So we just rounded up any fighting-aged male we could find.�??

One particular incident stands out in Hicks�??s mind. �??There was a tall apartment complex, the only spot from where people could see over our perimeter,�?? he recalls. �??There would be laundry hanging off the balconies, and people hanging out on the roof for fresh air. The place was full of kids and families. On rare occasions, a fighter would get atop the building and shoot at our passing vehicles. They never really hit anybody. We just knew to be careful when we were over by that part of the wall, and nobody did shit about it until one day a lieutenant colonel was driving down and they shot at his vehicle and he got scared. So he jumped through a bunch of hoops and cut through some red tape and got a C-130 to come out the next night and all but leveled the place. Earlier that evening when I was returning from a patrol the apartment had been packed full of people.�??

Looking back on his time in Iraq, Hicks sees a hopeless situation. �??You go out on your first mission and all the Iraqis think you�??re a loser, they ignore you, or flip you off, or draw their finger across their throat, yelling obscenities,�?? he says. �??Even though some were nice to us, you quickly lose any trust in them, and you lump them all together. The only way you can stay safe is to assume that outside the wire everybody wants to kill you. You don�??t want to be there. And it comes down to, �??Well fuck, I hate being here and I can�??t go home.�?? . . . So I wake up every fucking day and I think, �??The only reason I�??m here is because you fucking people are forcing me to be here. I hate you fucking people, and you hate me, and that�??s just how it is.�?? And once you get to that place, it�??s over.�?? [/i]

[quote]lixy wrote:
This is the most disturbing account of the shit being done in Iraq I have seen. This war and attack on the Iraqi people by the USA should have never happened, and I sure hope the next White House administration apologizes for this so we can put this somber page behind us.
[/quote]

Says you.

Self defense is not an attack. The dumbasses should learn to get out of the way of a fucking convoy.

Besides - the progressive would hardly be considered an unbiased rag.

Try again. You are particularly weak with this post.