The Real Iraq

[will_to_power]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
will to power wrote:

America’s actions in the Middle East right now are pushing up oil prices. How does this benefit me?

At any rate, I would feel a greater benefit from a freer Middle East than from cheaper oil and plastics.

I think it is AQ’s actions that are causing the instability. But - they are not killing americans on american soil, or destroying american assets. I’d much rather exterminate the fuckers in their desert that have their goat smelling asses on my soil.
[/quote]

AQ are certainly a big part of it, but the US invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with AQ and that is a huge reason for the high oil prices.

But - you are once again trying to blame the US for a global problem - I think they call it demand. More specifically, Chinese and Indian demand. Higher demand equals higher prices, especially when OPEC is controlling output.

Once again, you are hearing what you expect to hear only. I said US action is pushing up oil prices, I never said other factors were not also contributing.

But like I said, it’s easy to blame the US. It’s not going to change anything - much like none of the bitching and moaning about plight of the poor down trodden masses of the ME will change a damn thing until they want to do something about it.

Yes, we’re all wasting time here. What’s your point? Do you think I’m under the impression we’re achieving anything?

[rainjack]

[quote]will to power wrote:
rainjack wrote:
will to power wrote:

America’s actions in the Middle East right now are pushing up oil prices. How does this benefit me?

At any rate, I would feel a greater benefit from a freer Middle East than from cheaper oil and plastics.

I think it is AQ’s actions that are causing the instability. But - they are not killing americans on american soil, or destroying american assets. I’d much rather exterminate the fuckers in their desert that have their goat smelling asses on my soil.

AQ are certainly a big part of it, but the US invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with AQ and that is a huge reason for the high oil prices.[/quote]

Had AQ kept their noses out of Iraq, Iraq would not be an issue. They entered the Iraq situation, and now they are the issue.

[quote]But - you are once again trying to blame the US for a global problem - I think they call it demand. More specifically, Chinese and Indian demand. Higher demand equals higher prices, especially when OPEC is controlling output.

Once again, you are hearing what you expect to hear only. I said US action is pushing up oil prices, I never said other factors were not also contributing. [/quote]

I can only go off what you say. I have not mastered the ability to read minds by what you do not write.

[quote]But like I said, it’s easy to blame the US. It’s not going to change anything - much like none of the bitching and moaning about plight of the poor down trodden masses of the ME will change a damn thing until they want to do something about it.

Yes, we’re all wasting time here. What’s your point? Do you think I’m under the impression we’re achieving anything? [/quote]

Beyond our agreement that this is a waste of time, albeit it an entertaining waste of time, my point would be that the poor ME masses don’t have the desire, or enough desire, to do anything about the situation you say they are in. We could pull out this afternoon, and they would still be under the thumb of a dictator, or a “democracy” that preselects who they can vote for, or some other whacked out government that is so oppressive that one can only breathe with permission from their religious leader.

[rainjack]

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I think it is AQ’s actions that are causing the instability. But - they are not killing americans on american soil, or destroying american assets. I’d much rather exterminate the fuckers in their desert that have their goat smelling asses on my soil.

For the last time, Al-Qaeda’s heavy presence in Iraq is a consequence of the US invasion.[/quote]

So? They are dying in Iraq. Big fucking deal. The more dead AQ the better.

[will_to_power]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
will to power wrote:
rainjack wrote:
will to power wrote:

America’s actions in the Middle East right now are pushing up oil prices. How does this benefit me?

At any rate, I would feel a greater benefit from a freer Middle East than from cheaper oil and plastics.

I think it is AQ’s actions that are causing the instability. But - they are not killing americans on american soil, or destroying american assets. I’d much rather exterminate the fuckers in their desert that have their goat smelling asses on my soil.

AQ are certainly a big part of it, but the US invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with AQ and that is a huge reason for the high oil prices.

Had AQ kept their noses out of Iraq, Iraq would not be an issue. They entered the Iraq situation, and now they are the issue.
[/quote]

They are not the only issue. And all the issues that exist currently in Iraq are a direct result, intended or not, of US policy. Even if you consider the invasion a good thing, you have to realise that.

But - you are once again trying to blame the US for a global problem - I think they call it demand. More specifically, Chinese and Indian demand. Higher demand equals higher prices, especially when OPEC is controlling output.

Once again, you are hearing what you expect to hear only. I said US action is pushing up oil prices, I never said other factors were not also contributing.

I can only go off what you say. I have not mastered the ability to read minds by what you do not write.

Then don’t assume I mean more than I say. It seems to keep happening in these forums.

But like I said, it’s easy to blame the US. It’s not going to change anything - much like none of the bitching and moaning about plight of the poor down trodden masses of the ME will change a damn thing until they want to do something about it.

Yes, we’re all wasting time here. What’s your point? Do you think I’m under the impression we’re achieving anything?

Beyond our agreement that this is a waste of time, albeit it an entertaining waste of time, my point would be that the poor ME masses don’t have the desire, or enough desire, to do anything about the situation you say they are in. We could pull out this afternoon, and they would still be under the thumb of a dictator, or a “democracy” that preselects who they can vote for, or some other whacked out government that is so oppressive that one can only breathe with permission from their religious leader.

You’re right that if you pulled out they wouldn’t just overthrow the despots overnight. But, first of all, you would no longer be party to it. I know you don’t give a shit, but I am under the impression that most Americans want their country to be doing the moral thing.

Also, change never happens overnight, and it’s a lot more likely to have a chance without your military ready and waiting to aid in the oppression of the people.

[rainjack]

[quote]will to power wrote:
Then don’t assume I mean more than I say. It seems to keep happening in these forums.[/quote]

I didn’t assume anything. I wrote what I wrote based on what you wrote. If you write that the US is responsible for the increase in oil prices, it is impossible to assume you mean anything other than what you wrote.

But I am not going to get into an argument of semantics. It’s just the way the forums seem to go.

Also, change never happens overnight, and it’s a lot more likely to have a chance without your military ready and waiting to aid in the oppression of the people.

Please. This is bullshit and you know it. The US does not sit with loaded weapons waiting to aid in oppression. Yes, we support unsavory people, but that is a choosing the lesser of evils.

You seem to see no evil unless it has an American flag. We differ in our views.

[will_to_power]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Also, change never happens overnight, and it’s a lot more likely to have a chance without your military ready and waiting to aid in the oppression of the people.

Please. This is bullshit and you know it. The US does not sit with loaded weapons waiting to aid in oppression. Yes, we support unsavory people, but that is a choosing the lesser of evils.

You seem to see no evil unless it has an American flag. We differ in our views.

[/quote]

There are plenty of other evils, but you seem to think the choices are the status quo or people who are even worse only. That is were we differ in our views, not in my inability to see fault in countries other than the US.

[rainjack]

[quote]will to power wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Also, change never happens overnight, and it’s a lot more likely to have a chance without your military ready and waiting to aid in the oppression of the people.

Please. This is bullshit and you know it. The US does not sit with loaded weapons waiting to aid in oppression. Yes, we support unsavory people, but that is a choosing the lesser of evils.

You seem to see no evil unless it has an American flag. We differ in our views.

There are plenty of other evils, but you seem to think the choices are the status quo or people who are even worse only. That is were we differ in our views, not in my inability to see fault in countries other than the US.[/quote]

I haven’t seen you blame anyone but the US, or their actions.

In case you haven’t noticed, the US is trying to change the status quo in Iraq. Iran is clamoring (at least part of the populace is) for more freedom. I think these are good things. Maybe if, given time, democracy, and the idea of personal rights and freedom take hold, SA will be a much easier country to deal with. But for the here and now - I am not willing to trust anything other than what is working.

[will_to_power]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
will to power wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Also, change never happens overnight, and it’s a lot more likely to have a chance without your military ready and waiting to aid in the oppression of the people.

Please. This is bullshit and you know it. The US does not sit with loaded weapons waiting to aid in oppression. Yes, we support unsavory people, but that is a choosing the lesser of evils.

You seem to see no evil unless it has an American flag. We differ in our views.

There are plenty of other evils, but you seem to think the choices are the status quo or people who are even worse only. That is were we differ in our views, not in my inability to see fault in countries other than the US.

I haven’t seen you blame anyone but the US, or their actions.

In case you haven’t noticed, the US is trying to change the status quo in Iraq. Iran is clamoring (at least part of the populace is) for more freedom. I think these are good things. Maybe if, given time, democracy, and the idea of personal rights and freedom take hold, SA will be a much easier country to deal with. But for the here and now - I am not willing to trust anything other than what is working.
[/quote]

We’re discussing US policy in the Middle East, so of course I’m primarily going to talk about the US. What difference does it make to you if other countries are also at fault? It doesn’t make what you are doing right.

You may not be willing to trust anything other than what is ‘working’, but the stakes for you are much lower than for those in the Middle East, and it should be on them to decide whether they want to risk change or continue with the status quo anyway, not some other nation from across the ocean that wants better access to their natural resources.

[Gkhan]

Will to power:

Google “Iran aiding the taliban” and you will get a lot of hits. Whether you believe these articles is up to you.

One of Bin Laden’s goals is to drive the US out of the Middle East. So, our best way of dealing with these terrorists is to appease them? Is that what you are saying?

[rainjack]

[quote]will to power wrote:

We’re discussing US policy in the Middle East, so of course I’m primarily going to talk about the US. What difference does it make to you if other countries are also at fault? It doesn’t make what you are doing right.[/quote]

The US is not doing anything wrong, so your last sentence is meaningless.

You may not be willing to trust anything other than what is ‘working’, but the stakes for you are much lower than for those in the Middle East, and it should be on them to decide whether they want to risk change or continue with the status quo anyway, not some other nation from across the ocean that wants better access to their natural resources.

The people of the ME are incapable of self rule, or self determination. This has been proven over and again.

For someone who is so sensitive about others making assumptions you certainly have no problem over speaking what I said.

Please find the quote where I say the US wants better access. You won’t be able to.

Like I have said on several occasions, like us or hate us - we are going to be there. Period.

You can complain and whine and moan about us all you want, but until someone over there grows a nut and makes an attempt at some change from the inside - change that will still provide for safe dependable supply of oil - The US will continue to exert its ability to protect its interests. And oil is a major interest.

Reality sucks for some. Not so much for others.

[Dustin]

[quote]rainjack wrote:

The US is not doing anything wrong, so your last sentence is meaningless.

[/quote]

LOL! Rainjack is posting drunk again.

Dustin

[rainjack]

[quote]Dustin wrote:
rainjack wrote:

The US is not doing anything wrong, so your last sentence is meaningless.

LOL! Rainjack is posting drunk again.

Dustin

[/quote]

Stone sober, kiddo.

Tell me the wrong we are doing. Please. I guess upholding UN resolutions are illegal in your eyes?

Let me clue you in - unpopular is not the same thing as wrong.

Now run and play.

[lixy]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Let me clue you in - unpopular is not the same thing as wrong. /quote]

More often than not, it is.

And let me clue you in - might does not necessarily meam right.

[rainjack]

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Let me clue you in - unpopular is not the same thing as wrong.

More often than not, it is.

And let me clue you in - might does not necessarily meam right.[/quote]

You are the last one to be cluing anyone in on anything except maybe when the subject is how to rape a 12 year-old girl.

[Sikkario]

[quote]Stone sober, kiddo.

Tell me the wrong we are doing. Please. I guess upholding UN resolutions are illegal in your eyes?

Let me clue you in - unpopular is not the same thing as wrong.

Now run and play.[/quote]
So you uphold UN resolutions, by violating the UN charter and international law…huh?

That’s RainJackAss logic right there.

1 Sikkario- 0 Rainjackass.

[will_to_power]

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Will to power:

Google “Iran aiding the taliban” and you will get a lot of hits. Whether you believe these articles is up to you.
[/quote]

I’ll spend a little time hitting those up. I might even post about the conclusion I come to. It’s not impossible, they might be doing it to piss of the coalition but you should consider that there are better reasons for Iran not to support the Taliban, so I’d be careful about what they’re basing the info on. If they are, it’s a pretty stupid move in my opinion.

One of Bin Laden’s goals is to drive the US out of the Middle East. So, our best way of dealing with these terrorists is to appease them? Is that what you are saying?

Not exactly. I know it sucks to imagine that you’re doing what those bastards want, and I get the feeling you in particular have been hurt by some of their actions. But the fact is those particular things I’ve mentioned are better for the people, and will make it damn hard for AQ to recruit. This will actually be worse for AQ. Invading Iraq was the best thing that happened to them, their organisation is now much more powerful than before. What they really want now isn’t for you to just leave or whatever, what they really want is for you to stay and make things worse [thereby making them more powerful] and for them to force you to leave.

Basically, if you leave on your terms they will lose support, and that will make them angry. When they started they probably would’ve been happy to just see you leave but now what they really want is power. Every PR nightmare for you, Abu Ghraib, etc, they read that shit on the news and they get ecstatic because those are the things that give them power. It may seem like what they want is for that to stop, but they don’t. Not until they’re strong enough to wrestle it away.

[will_to_power]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
will to power wrote:

We’re discussing US policy in the Middle East, so of course I’m primarily going to talk about the US. What difference does it make to you if other countries are also at fault? It doesn’t make what you are doing right.

The US is not doing anything wrong, so your last sentence is meaningless.
[/quote]

I guess we’ll just have to disagree on that.

You may not be willing to trust anything other than what is ‘working’, but the stakes for you are much lower than for those in the Middle East, and it should be on them to decide whether they want to risk change or continue with the status quo anyway, not some other nation from across the ocean that wants better access to their natural resources.

The people of the ME are incapable of self rule, or self determination. This has been proven over and again.

If that’s your opinion, then I really don’t see any point in discussing this part further. Frankly I think I have a better understanding of what the people of the Middle East are or are not capable of than you ever will, but I doubt you’ll change your mind anytime soon either.

For someone who is so sensitive about others making assumptions you certainly have no problem over speaking what I said.

Please find the quote where I say the US wants better access. You won’t be able to.

Better [more stable] access than what you believe it would be if the US wasn’t there.

[quote]
Like I have said on several occasions, like us or hate us - we are going to be there. Period.

You can complain and whine and moan about us all you want, but until someone over there grows a nut and makes an attempt at some change from the inside - change that will still provide for safe dependable supply of oil - The US will continue to exert its ability to protect its interests. And oil is a major interest.

Reality sucks for some. Not so much for others. [/quote]

You may not be interested in it, but some people are interested in affecting change from the American side too.

I find this line interesting though; ‘change that will still provide for safe dependable supply of oil’

Are you saying if they select a government that halts oil supply you would want to overthrow them? Or that if their revolution takes too long you would want it quashed? Please tell me I’m misreading you here.

[Gkhan]

[quote]will to power wrote:
I’ll spend a little time hitting those up. I might even post about the conclusion I come to. It’s not impossible, they might be doing it to piss of the coalition but you should consider that there are better reasons for Iran not to support the Taliban, so I’d be careful about what they’re basing the info on. If they are, it’s a pretty stupid move in my opinion.
[/quote]

One thing Iran could have done would have buried the hatchet with the US and came to an agreement to destroy the Taliban once and for all. Then, I would venture, they would have no opposition for civil nuclear power whatsoever. But they have to take the hardest line against us as usual. Because of something which happened over 50 years ago.

[Sikkario]

One thing Iran could have done would have buried the hatchet with the US and came to an agreement to destroy the Taliban once and for all. Then, I would venture, they would have no opposition for civil nuclear power whatsoever. But they have to take the hardest line against us as usual. Because of something which happened over 50 years ago.

Well, the USA did kind of…try to rule their country by proxy…and did depose and destroy their democratically elected respective “Ataturk.” And did support and install a ruthless dictator who squandered the nation’s wealth on his own decadence, while, pissing on their Islamic past, and alienating the population…not to mention his secret police and dirty war…and after they sloughed him, the USA did…support, arm, fund and encourage a ruthless tyrant and despot, to wage war using chemical and biological weapons on their country while it was at its weakest pount…which did result in over a million people being killed…and then to add insult to injury we did put them into a bundle of nations known as the Axis Of Evil…so why exactly would Iran take any stance but an irrevocably defensive one against its eternal antagonist and would-be-destroyer-if-cannot-be-ruler, the United States of America?
…

I mean, do you honestly think Iran owes the USA an apology?

Cuz it looks to me the only thing they have done is expell the USA from their land after they trampled all over their sovereignity.

If anything, the fact the Iranians didn’t bend over backwards to the USA in it’s War Of Terror, even to take out a mutual enemy, just shows extreme character.

Italy was notorious for switching sides, and felating everyone at the beginning of the 20th century in order to further their own interests…I don’t think anyone looks at them with respect or favorably. I suppose Iran looked at that and took a lesson from the history books.

Sikkario- 2
NeoCons- 0