One thing that always mystified me even when I used to eat meat 3 times per day is how people would say humans are predators. I cant think of a single predator that isnt born with the means to catch or kill prey. prey tends to be too quick to catch or too big to kill. is it our huge canines or our monstrous claws that does the damage, or maybe we just run the antelope down until it was exhausted.
I believe the human body is very robust and can adapt wonderfully to changes in climate and diet. also bear in mind that early humans would have been half our size. eating meat is definitely not bad for you but humans are by nature very lazy much like all animals so why risk your life to “hunt” unnecessarily if they could eat other foods too. plus buying meat in a package from a supermarket is not all that predatory IMO.
[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
One thing that always mystified me even when I used to eat meat 3 times per day is how people would say humans are predators. I cant think of a single predator that isnt born with the means to catch or kill prey. prey tends to be too quick to catch or too big to kill. is it our huge canines or our monstrous claws that does the damage, or maybe we just run the antelope down until it was exhausted.
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Hogwash.
I don’t know about you, but I was catching frogs, bugs, turtles, snakes and all other sorts of critters with my bare hands when I was just a boy. Once I learned the magical boyhood activity of digging holes in the ground I managed to catch some stuff with fur too, not to mention all of the bonus worms you get when you dig a really nice pit in the woods out back.
If I had a mind to eat them all I needed to do was open my mouth and put those critters down the hatch.
I don’t know about you, but I was catching frogs, bugs, turtles, snakes and all other sorts of critters with my bare hands when I was just a boy. Once I learned the magical boyhood activity of digging holes in the ground I managed to catch some stuff with fur too, not to mention all of the bonus worms you get when you dig a really nice pit in the woods out back.
If I had a mind to eat them all I needed to do was open my mouth and put those critters down the hatch.
We’re predators, no doubt about it.
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I think you have a valid point that catching small insects and animals is possible so I retract my assertion that we cannot catch anything but may I ask why you didnt eat the animals you were able to catch?
I don’t know about you, but I was catching frogs, bugs, turtles, snakes and all other sorts of critters with my bare hands when I was just a boy. Once I learned the magical boyhood activity of digging holes in the ground I managed to catch some stuff with fur too, not to mention all of the bonus worms you get when you dig a really nice pit in the woods out back.
If I had a mind to eat them all I needed to do was open my mouth and put those critters down the hatch.
We’re predators, no doubt about it.
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I think you have a valid point that catching small insects and animals is possible so I retract my assertion that we cannot catch anything but may I ask why you didnt eat the animals you were able to catch?[/quote]
Because I was fortunate enough to live in a house. And in that house my parents would prepare meals for me that tasted much better than worms and frogs.
Haha. I thought that would be the case but the point I was making is that a “predator” would just eat the animals, probably in their entirety. they would probably salivate at the thought of trapping a rabbit etc. so Im not saying that humans shouldn’t or wouldn’t have eaten meat but i think predator is an overstatement.
I cant see how bigger animals such as pigs, cows etc would have been taken down or eaten raw with the base tools we have. of course, evolution and use of external tools expands this issue. Now I am definitely an armchair zoologist so please correct me as Im always open to ideas.
[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Haha. I thought that would be the case but the point I was making is that a “predator” would just eat the animals, probably in their entirety. they would probably salivate at the thought of trapping a rabbit etc. so Im not saying that humans shouldn’t or wouldn’t have eaten meat but i think predator is an overstatement. I cant see how bigger animals such as pigs, cows etc would have been taken down or eaten raw with the base tools we have. of course, evolution and use of external tools expands this issue. Now I am definitely an armchair zoologist so please correct me as Im always open to ideas.[/quote]
You don’t really have a point. You started off with “humans can’t catch prey”, which a 5 year-old boy can easily demonstrate to be a falsehood. Now you’ve latched on to the notion that my childhood preference for peanut butter and jelly over worms means that we are not natural predators.
And for the record, a few of those worms and bugs did make it down the hatch. They didn’t think I would do it, but I showed 'em all right.
We are predators because we have always hunted and killed prey. The menu has simply expanded over the millennia. What we are NOT is obligate carnivores, meaning meat is all we can eat to survive.
I’m guessing you are a vegetarian or vegan, which is totally fine, by the way. I am making that guess because the twisted logic and evolutionary quackery you are advancing here are quite characteristic of the prophets of meat-free living.
[quote]56x11 wrote:
I see a guy whom I can use as an example to others who think they can outsmart decades of strength/conditioning knowledge and boatloads of common sense. [/quote]
I forget which T-Nation author said it, but it was a long time ago… But it goes along the lines of “The moment you begin to think you know everything is the moment you begin to suck.”
I’m not trying to outsmart anything, I’m trying to learn. And if you think we’ve learned every way to build muscle and strength you’re wrong. The one thing that history has shown us most reliably when it comes to science is that either we were wrong or we didn’t know everything.
Its incredible complex and thinking a lion is big and strong ill eat like that and become big and strong is ridiculous.
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I was in SE Asia sitting with a buddhist monk on a train. It was around lunch time. He offered me some watermelon seeds, which I accepted. I offered him some of what I had (I think it was some sort of pork dumpling, or something).
He declined, because he was vegetarian (I felt dumb), but specifically, he said in his broken english, “Bull, giraffe, only eat grass, very strong. Elephant, only grass, very big.” The monk, however, while happy, was neither big nor strong.[/quote]
Our digestive tract much more closely resembles that of the lion than that of the bull.
[quote]EClay wrote:
OP I think your being seriously naive with your diet and you don’t fully grasp how animals have evolved to suit foods available to them. We rely greatly on bacteria present in our stomachs to digest and produce certain compounds
For instance the proboscis monkey, it cannot eat fruit, in fact high sugar foods are deadly to this primate. Many animals create their own vitamin c etc.
Its incredible complex and thinking a lion is big and strong ill eat like that and become big and strong is ridiculous.
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Except that we know we did evolve to eat meat, there are many essential nutrients in the meat that we consume, and that modeling diets after ancient or natural diets is common.
What’s ridiculous is assuming just because one animal has a particular diet means we’ll reap the same benefits, hence why this is an experiment; however, I have two other diet phases that establish merit for this which includes 28 days of 4.5 lbs of raw beef. In that phase I gained 13.3 lbs of lean mass verified by DXA.
[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Haha. I thought that would be the case but the point I was making is that a “predator” would just eat the animals, probably in their entirety. they would probably salivate at the thought of trapping a rabbit etc. so Im not saying that humans shouldn’t or wouldn’t have eaten meat but i think predator is an overstatement.
I cant see how bigger animals such as pigs, cows etc would have been taken down or eaten raw with the base tools we have. of course, evolution and use of external tools expands this issue. Now I am definitely an armchair zoologist so please correct me as Im always open to ideas.[/quote]
Arrowheads and spears have been around for 300,000 years or so. Those are similar tools to what we know the Native Americans used to hunt buffalo and other large game. Although I’m sure we did eat plenty of small game too…
You don’t really have a point. You started off with “humans can’t catch prey”, which a 5 year-old boy can easily demonstrate to be a falsehood. Now you’ve latched on to the notion that my childhood preference for peanut butter and jelly over worms means that we are not natural predators.
And for the record, a few of those worms and bugs did make it down the hatch. They didn’t think I would do it, but I showed 'em all right.
We are predators because we have always hunted and killed prey. The menu has simply expanded over the millennia. What we are NOT is obligate carnivores, meaning meat is all we can eat to survive.
I’m guessing you are a vegetarian or vegan, which is totally fine, by the way. I am making that guess because the twisted logic and evolutionary quackery you are advancing here are quite characteristic of the prophets of meat-free living.
Am I correct?
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No Im not a vegetarian. I eat fish. Its interesting to me that you find my logic twisted. Its not a case of me latching on to what you say but rather a general feeling that we cannot be termed predator in the way a cat could. a predator has an inbuilt ability and drive to kill for nourishment. most humans would be squeemish at the thought of killing their own dinner. predators would eat their food raw and in its entirety which of course is possible but not the norm- though I shudder to think what is in a big mac.
The requirement of tools to kill food( which in western diet is lots of large mammals) suggests to me that nature is out of kilter somewhere. im not a militant anti meater at all, damn ive eaten enough of it but the treatment of animals in industrial farming uneases me.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me why anyone is still responding to this clown?[/quote]
Nope! Can’t really understand it myself.
[/quote]
[…]
As for the OP’s personal little crusade, the theater of the absurd can be a valuable teaching tool.
You see a troll and that’s okay. I see a guy whom I can use as an example to others who think they can outsmart decades of strength/conditioning knowledge and boatloads of common sense. [/quote]
That’s part of it for me.
I’m trying to encourage a little more, I dunno, “intellectual rigor”, so that at the results are a little more controlled.
“I’m going to do this and see what happens” isn’t particularly insightful unless you have a ton of data. Once you have that data, you can see if various theories are supported by it or not… and even that approach is highly questionable. But at least it would provide a starting point for followup experiments.
[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Its not a case of me latching on to what you say but rather a general feeling that we cannot be termed predator in the way a cat could. a predator has an inbuilt ability and drive to kill for nourishment. most humans would be squeemish at the thought of killing their own dinner.[/quote]
I disagree with that last sentence in particular. Some humans are, some humans aren’t. If you want to say “most Americans born and raised in urban or suburban envronments are”, that has a bit more credibility.
[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
No Im not a vegetarian. I eat fish. Its interesting to me that you find my logic twisted. Its not a case of me latching on to what you say but rather a general feeling that we cannot be termed predator in the way a cat could. a predator has an inbuilt ability and drive to kill for nourishment. most humans would be squeemish at the thought of killing their own dinner. predators would eat their food raw and in its entirety which of course is possible but not the norm- though I shudder to think what is in a big mac.
The requirement of tools to kill food( which in western diet is lots of large mammals) suggests to me that nature is out of kilter somewhere. im not a militant anti meater at all, damn ive eaten enough of it but the treatment of animals in industrial farming uneases me. [/quote]
Sorry, your general feeling is wrong.
Again, a predator is not the same as an obligate carnivore. All obligate carnivores (such as your example of cats) are predators, but not all predators are obligate carnivores (such as humans, bears, racoons, etc). This is basic reasoning and this is the concept you are twisting around.
And you have already gone back to this ridiculous notion that tools are required to kill. Didn’t we already cover this? Furthermore, it is also worth noting (as the creator of the Predator Program™ did) that we have evolved as tool users for several hundred thousand years now?
Don’t you think we looked a bit different when we started using rocks, sticks and fire, not to mention taking advantage of our surroundings by running prey off of cliffs or into pits we just dug?
The humans you hang around may be squeamish about killing their own dinner, but I can assure you than many of us are not, nor is such squeamishness a basic human condition. It is learned behavior. I can also assure you that any feelings of squeamishness are quickly forgotten when people find themselves faced with starvation.
[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Its not a case of me latching on to what you say but rather a general feeling that we cannot be termed predator in the way a cat could. a predator has an inbuilt ability and drive to kill for nourishment. most humans would be squeemish at the thought of killing their own dinner.[/quote]
I disagree with that last sentence in particular. Some humans are, some humans aren’t. If you want to say “most Americans born and raised in urban or suburban envronments are”, that has a bit more credibility.[/quote]
I couldn’t comment on America as Im English. but thats my point right there… why would living in a city override the individuals predatory instincts if we all had them? Why would a predator distinguish between wild boar and the neighbours dog? A predator in the traditional meaning would just go for the easiest prey. Lions go for the slowest etc. im not advocating that people bother the neighbours pets though. haha.Please remember that Im not against eating meat I just find it all very interesting as to how “we” got to this point.
[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Its not a case of me latching on to what you say but rather a general feeling that we cannot be termed predator in the way a cat could. a predator has an inbuilt ability and drive to kill for nourishment. most humans would be squeemish at the thought of killing their own dinner.[/quote]
I disagree with that last sentence in particular. Some humans are, some humans aren’t. If you want to say “most Americans born and raised in urban or suburban envronments are”, that has a bit more credibility.[/quote]
I couldn’t comment on America as Im English. but thats my point right there… why would living in a city override the individuals predatory instincts if we all had them? Why would a predator distinguish between wild boar and the neighbours dog? A predator in the traditional meaning would just go for the easiest prey. Lions go for the slowest etc. im not advocating that people bother the neighbours pets though. haha.Please remember that Im not against eating meat I just find it all very interesting as to how “we” got to this point.
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Isn’t the easiest prey the one that’s already killed for you?
More specifically… if a lion could just go to the supermarket, do you think he’d keep hunting?
Isn’t the easiest prey the one that’s already killed for you?
More specifically… if a lion could just go to the supermarket, do you think he’d keep hunting?[/quote]
Thankyou gentleman, theres certainly lots to consider. getting the carnivore/predator thing straight has been useful. although LoRez last point just makes me wonder why anyone would need to hunt if theres meat in the supermarket. personally I think if everyone hunted rather than bought there meat there would be much less waste and the animals would live healthier more natural lives which would certainly make me and my sensitive soul feel better.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m trying to encourage a little more, I dunno, “intellectual rigor”, so that at the results are a little more controlled.
“I’m going to do this and see what happens” isn’t particularly insightful unless you have a ton of data. Once you have that data, you can see if various theories are supported by it or not… and even that approach is highly questionable. But at least it would provide a starting point for followup experiments.
Otherwise, probably a bit of schadenfreude.[/quote]
In terms of tons of data I’ve got blood work, DXA scans, and BMR tests from 10 months of diet experiments. When it comes to building muscle though it doesn’t matter what kind of data you have when it’s an n=1 experiment people will refute the results.
Even if I had a great gain, let’s say 10 lbs of lean mass… Where that mass came from would be heavily disputed. Even if I had great gains in strength my prior numbers (which I’m far from) would come into play.
The only reason why this is loose (and yes I typically experiment with rigor) is because I know how against conventional recommendations for both diet and exercise this is. I’m looking for something really freakin obvious to happen. I had two other experiments and personal experiences that lead me to believe this may have some really freakin obvious results. If it doesn’t it’s back to conventional wisdom.
[quote]56x11 wrote:
I see a guy whom I can use as an example to others who think they can outsmart decades of strength/conditioning knowledge and boatloads of common sense. [/quote]
I forget which T-Nation author said it, but it was a long time ago… But it goes along the lines of “The moment you begin to think you know everything is the moment you begin to suck.”
I’m not trying to outsmart anything, I’m trying to learn. And if you think we’ve learned every way to build muscle and strength you’re wrong. The one thing that history has shown us most reliably when it comes to science is that either we were wrong or we didn’t know everything.
[/quote]
I never stated that I or anyone else knows everything there is to know regarding getting stronger and more muscular.
However, there are those who are so far off any semblance of reality, they deserve, in turns, pity and ridicule.
Your ability to rationalize and twist various information to fit your idea of what is correct is nothing short of astounding. I’ve no doubt there are psychology students who are intrigued with you in the same manner an entomologist would be fascinated to discover a new species of a gnat.
And your posts only confirm what I stated about the theater of the absurd. I sincerely wish you’d post more videos. You can take the mantle of the T-Nation forum nutjob. It’s been vacant for quite some time and this place isn’t what it used to be. Some will express indignation. Others, such as myself, will welcome a new source of tragicomedy.