Here’s another thought: MMA has blown-up in terms of popularity and participants and great marketing by the UFC over the past 7-8 years in North America… Fantastic fighters and sometimes highly entertaining, brutal combat. Here’s the rub… The reason for this is the EXACT OPPPOSITE of the reason this thread was started. Posters have chimed in and suggested on many occasions that MMA fighters are the best athletes in having world class “transferable qualities”… Power, speed, strength, endurance, etc. I’d suggest it’s the opposite MMA participants can be world class fighters and perhaps even champions. Without POSESSING ANY elite/world class athletic qualities. Thus the popularity… Matt Hughes, Cain Velazquez, Forrest Griffin etc. Skills, guts, heart, determination… Boatloads!!! World class or elite level physical traits/gifts/capabilities… Not a chance. You’d be hard pressed to look into any D1-D3 college football roster (let alone an NFL lockeroom) without finding some truly “gifted” athletes, if not several. Thus the popularity of MMA the skillset and “grind” of it makes it an EVERYMAN type of endeavor. Much like soccer.
[quote]BradTGIF wrote:
[quote]puglet wrote:
Here’s another thought: MMA has blown-up in terms of popularity and participants and great marketing by the UFC over the past 7-8 years in North America… Fantastic fighters and sometimes highly entertaining, brutal combat. Here’s the rub… The reason for this is the EXACT OPPPOSITE of the reason this thread was started.
Posters have chimed in and suggested on many occasions that MMA fighters are the best athletes in having world class “transferable qualities”… Power, speed, strength, endurance, etc. I’d suggest it’s the opposite MMA participants can be world class fighters and perhaps even champions. Without POSESSING ANY elite/world class athletic qualities.
Thus the popularity… Matt Hughes, Cain Velazquez, Forrest Griffin etc. Skills, guts, heart, determination… Boatloads!!! World class or elite level physical traits/gifts/capabilities… Not a chance. You’d be hard pressed to look into any D1-D3 college football roster (let alone an NFL lockeroom) without finding some truly “gifted” athletes, if not several. Thus the popularity of MMA the skillset and “grind” of it makes it an EVERYMAN type of endeavor. Much like soccer. [/quote]
Yeah man, not entirely agreeing with you. GSP, Nick Diaz, Spider. Pretty solid athletes in their own right. Granted these are antiquated examples, but in their hey-day I found them to be ultra-athletic and far above their competition who, in my mind, would have assuredly excelled in whichever discipline is out there.
[/quote]
Here’s another thought: MMA has blown-up in terms of popularity and participants and great marketing by the UFC over the past 7-8 years in North America… Fantastic fighters and sometimes highly entertaining, brutal combat. Here’s the rub… The reason for this is the EXACT OPPPOSITE of the reason this thread was started. Posters have chimed in and suggested on many occasions that MMA fighters are the best athletes in having world class “transferable qualities”… Power, speed, strength, endurance, etc. I’d suggest it’s the opposite MMA participants can be world class fighters and perhaps even champions. Without POSESSING ANY elite/world class athletic qualities. Thus the popularity… Matt Hughes, Cain Velazquez, Forrest Griffin etc. Skills, guts, heart, determination… Boatloads!!! World class or elite level physical traits/gifts/capabilities… Not a chance. You’d be hard pressed to look into any D1-D3 college football roster (let alone an NFL lockeroom) without finding some truly “gifted” athletes, if not several. Thus the popularity of MMA the skillset and “grind” of it makes it an EVERYMAN type of endeavor. Much like soccer.
[quote]ziah wrote:
As a WHOLE and AVERAGING all the roles together, including roles like centers it’s not that impressive to me.[/quote]
That’s an interior lineman. A good friend of mine played offensive line, and a few years back we used to get a group of guys together to play touch football. Ex-wrestlers, ex-gymnasts, that sort of thing, almost all of us had competed at the university level or higher. At 6’3 300 pounds I think he was the most athletic person on the field, and he was in the CFL, not even the NFL. Make no mistake, those guys can move.
[quote]ziah wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Soccer:
Power=8
Huh?[/quote]
Yeah… I guess a level of 6 or so would be more accurate when it comes to how powerful soccer players need to be.
Truth be told, I’m not “pro-soccer”, “pro-basketball”, or “anti-football”. I just think the American culture puts too much emphasis behind how great of athletes football players are. As a WHOLE and AVERAGING all the roles together, including roles like centers it’s not that impressive to me.[/quote]
‘Averaging’ all the positions doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, but if you want to do that, you should read this. I’d bet a substantial amount of money that every 300lb+ lineman in the NFL could out-sprint you, me, and most of the people on this site. I’m certainly impressed by that.
[quote]ziah wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
Also, to the guy who said that endurance doesn’t really matter - really? Endurance is the ONLY area in which our species has the leg up on all other animals.
[/quote]
I seriously doubt this is true. How would you even prove it?[/quote]
Huh, funny I thought that was the case, but I guess not. There are a few animals out there than can out run humans for endurance:
I’ll admit it, my argument of humans being “top-dog” when it comes to endurance is invalid. [/quote]
just as an example here is someone that isn’t even the best in his sport.
Dean Karnazes, an ultra marathoner, ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days and did the NYC marathon as his final in 3 hrs. started to run back to San Francisco but stopped in Missouri to spend more time with his family.
ran from Disneyland to New York in 75 days.
Ran 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep.
148 miles in 24 hours on a treadmill.
swam across San Francisco Bay
completed The Relay, 200 mile race ran by teams of ten that each person runs 10 miles then is driven to their next stage, solo at least 11 times.
won(several top 5 finishes) the Badwater Ultra in under 28 hrs(not the record time). it’s 135 miles starting in Badwater Basin Death Vally @280’ below sea level and climbs to @8400’ on Mt Whitney in July.
Western States 100 where runners climb a total of 18,090 feet and descend a total of 22,970 feet through the Sierra Nevadas and have to finish in under 30 hrs. 11 time Silver Buckleholder(finish under 24 hrs)
won the 4 Deserts Grand Slam, 4 155 mi races, in 1 yr, through the Atacama Crossing(avg 8000’ elev) in March, Gobi in June, Sahara in October, and Antarctica in November. each race take place over seven days and six stages. A campsite is raised each night for competitors where they are provided a tent to sleep, hot water, campfire, and medical assistance. they must carry all their own supplies with them during the race.
name a single animal that can do all these races.
I’d take you up on your bet. I’m not that fast by any means, but I’m pretty sure I can run a 6 second 40. So unless EVERY SINGLE 300lb+ lineman is able to run a 6 second 40, then I’ll be impressed with NFL players as a whole.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/91
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/46
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/47
Those are all the linemen 40 times at the combine this year, most of whom won’t even make it in the NFL. Only 2 guys ran over 5.5, both of whom weigh in at over 320.
The point is not whether or not YOU can run a 6 second 40 anyway. The point is that these guys who you said aren’t athletically impressive to you are weighing in at essentially twice your weight, and are running faster than most humans. If you decide to check out those links, you should take a look at some of the other data too. There are some pretty outstanding vertical leaps in there. Matt Patchan, for example, ran a sub 5 second 40, vertical leap at 33", bench pressed 225 for 22 reps, and he’s 6’6 300 lbs. That certainly impresses me.
[quote]ziah wrote:
Here’s my own rough estimate that I’m “pulling out of no where” - just observation [/10]:
Football
Endurance: 4
Power: 10
Speed: 10
Agility: 9
Basketball:
Endurance: 7
Power: 9
Speed: 9
Agility: 10
Weakness: Strength isn’t very important - at least it can be easily compensated for with skill
Soccer:
Endurance: 8
Power: 8
Speed: 9
Agility: 10
Weakness: Little to no upper body involvement[/quote]
Fucking what? LOL
Football:
Endurance: 4
Power: 8
Speed: 7
Agility: 8
Basketball:
Endurance: 7
Power: 4
Speed: 6
Agility: 9
Soccer:
Endurance: 10
Power: 2
Speed: 9
Agility: 10
That’s kinda what I’d say. To be honest very few people in any sport are truly that strong. Naturally strong guys often go to football, and some people there get crazy strong, but most of them honestly never develop much of their strength/power potential. They just get more athletic and more skilled at football. Strength is a skill too. Pro strongmen are miles and miles ahead of any athlete in terms of strength. But like I said, overall I think I’d still give it to either a football or rugby player.
[quote]silverblood wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
Also, to the guy who said that endurance doesn’t really matter - really? Endurance is the ONLY area in which our species has the leg up on all other animals.
[/quote]
I seriously doubt this is true. How would you even prove it?[/quote]
Huh, funny I thought that was the case, but I guess not. There are a few animals out there than can out run humans for endurance:
I’ll admit it, my argument of humans being “top-dog” when it comes to endurance is invalid. [/quote]
just as an example here is someone that isn’t even the best in his sport.
Dean Karnazes, an ultra marathoner, ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days and did the NYC marathon as his final in 3 hrs. started to run back to San Francisco but stopped in Missouri to spend more time with his family.
ran from Disneyland to New York in 75 days.
Ran 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep.
148 miles in 24 hours on a treadmill.
swam across San Francisco Bay
completed The Relay, 200 mile race ran by teams of ten that each person runs 10 miles then is driven to their next stage, solo at least 11 times.
won(several top 5 finishes) the Badwater Ultra in under 28 hrs(not the record time). it’s 135 miles starting in Badwater Basin Death Vally @280’ below sea level and climbs to @8400’ on Mt Whitney in July.
Western States 100 where runners climb a total of 18,090 feet and descend a total of 22,970 feet through the Sierra Nevadas and have to finish in under 30 hrs. 11 time Silver Buckleholder(finish under 24 hrs)
won the 4 Deserts Grand Slam, 4 155 mi races, in 1 yr, through the Atacama Crossing(avg 8000’ elev) in March, Gobi in June, Sahara in October, and Antarctica in November. each race take place over seven days and six stages. A campsite is raised each night for competitors where they are provided a tent to sleep, hot water, campfire, and medical assistance. they must carry all their own supplies with them during the race.
name a single animal that can do all these races.
[/quote]
Please name a single animal that dedicates time to training.
[quote]silverblood wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
Also, to the guy who said that endurance doesn’t really matter - really? Endurance is the ONLY area in which our species has the leg up on all other animals.
[/quote]
I seriously doubt this is true. How would you even prove it?[/quote]
Huh, funny I thought that was the case, but I guess not. There are a few animals out there than can out run humans for endurance:
I’ll admit it, my argument of humans being “top-dog” when it comes to endurance is invalid. [/quote]
just as an example here is someone that isn’t even the best in his sport.
Dean Karnazes, an ultra marathoner, ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days and did the NYC marathon as his final in 3 hrs. started to run back to San Francisco but stopped in Missouri to spend more time with his family.
ran from Disneyland to New York in 75 days.
Ran 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep.
148 miles in 24 hours on a treadmill.
swam across San Francisco Bay
completed The Relay, 200 mile race ran by teams of ten that each person runs 10 miles then is driven to their next stage, solo at least 11 times.
won(several top 5 finishes) the Badwater Ultra in under 28 hrs(not the record time). it’s 135 miles starting in Badwater Basin Death Vally @280’ below sea level and climbs to @8400’ on Mt Whitney in July.
Western States 100 where runners climb a total of 18,090 feet and descend a total of 22,970 feet through the Sierra Nevadas and have to finish in under 30 hrs. 11 time Silver Buckleholder(finish under 24 hrs)
won the 4 Deserts Grand Slam, 4 155 mi races, in 1 yr, through the Atacama Crossing(avg 8000’ elev) in March, Gobi in June, Sahara in October, and Antarctica in November. each race take place over seven days and six stages. A campsite is raised each night for competitors where they are provided a tent to sleep, hot water, campfire, and medical assistance. they must carry all their own supplies with them during the race.
name a single animal that can do all these races.
[/quote]
Only race I know of that an animal ran in. But, you get the point
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/91
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/46
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/47
Those are all the linemen 40 times at the combine this year, most of whom won’t even make it in the NFL. Only 2 guys ran over 5.5, both of whom weigh in at over 320.
The point is not whether or not YOU can run a 6 second 40 anyway. The point is that these guys who you said aren’t athletically impressive to you are weighing in at essentially twice your weight, and are running faster than most humans. If you decide to check out those links, you should take a look at some of the other data too. There are some pretty outstanding vertical leaps in there. Matt Patchan, for example, ran a sub 5 second 40, vertical leap at 33", bench pressed 225 for 22 reps, and he’s 6’6 300 lbs. That certainly impresses me.[/quote]
Yeah, I definitely have a lot more respect for NFL players now after reviewing the data. I didn’t think the huge guys were THAT athletic.
I still have doubts that they’re the most impressive well-rounded athletes though. I also still don’t see how they exemplify having endurance and for me that’s the deal breaker.
Come zombie apocalypse time, endurance will be very important.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
Here’s my own rough estimate that I’m “pulling out of no where” - just observation [/10]:
Football
Endurance: 4
Power: 10
Speed: 10
Agility: 9
Basketball:
Endurance: 7
Power: 9
Speed: 9
Agility: 10
Weakness: Strength isn’t very important - at least it can be easily compensated for with skill
Soccer:
Endurance: 8
Power: 8
Speed: 9
Agility: 10
Weakness: Little to no upper body involvement[/quote]
Fucking what? LOL
Football:
Endurance: 4
Power: 8
Speed: 7
Agility: 8
Basketball:
Endurance: 7
Power: 4
Speed: 6
Agility: 9
Soccer:
Endurance: 10
Power: 2
Speed: 9
Agility: 10
That’s kinda what I’d say. To be honest very few people in any sport are truly that strong. Naturally strong guys often go to football, and some people there get crazy strong, but most of them honestly never develop much of their strength/power potential. They just get more athletic and more skilled at football. Strength is a skill too. Pro strongmen are miles and miles ahead of any athlete in terms of strength. But like I said, overall I think I’d still give it to either a football or rugby player.[/quote]
I can see where you get your numbers from, but my main problem is that I don’t think you give basketball players enough credit when it comes to power. Jumping is a 100% power movement. Last I checked, jumping well is important when it comes to basketball. If we change power to strength, I’d agree with you on your numbers.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]silverblood wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
Also, to the guy who said that endurance doesn’t really matter - really? Endurance is the ONLY area in which our species has the leg up on all other animals.
[/quote]
I seriously doubt this is true. How would you even prove it?[/quote]
Huh, funny I thought that was the case, but I guess not. There are a few animals out there than can out run humans for endurance:
I’ll admit it, my argument of humans being “top-dog” when it comes to endurance is invalid. [/quote]
just as an example here is someone that isn’t even the best in his sport.
Dean Karnazes, an ultra marathoner, ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days and did the NYC marathon as his final in 3 hrs. started to run back to San Francisco but stopped in Missouri to spend more time with his family.
ran from Disneyland to New York in 75 days.
Ran 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep.
148 miles in 24 hours on a treadmill.
swam across San Francisco Bay
completed The Relay, 200 mile race ran by teams of ten that each person runs 10 miles then is driven to their next stage, solo at least 11 times.
won(several top 5 finishes) the Badwater Ultra in under 28 hrs(not the record time). it’s 135 miles starting in Badwater Basin Death Vally @280’ below sea level and climbs to @8400’ on Mt Whitney in July.
Western States 100 where runners climb a total of 18,090 feet and descend a total of 22,970 feet through the Sierra Nevadas and have to finish in under 30 hrs. 11 time Silver Buckleholder(finish under 24 hrs)
won the 4 Deserts Grand Slam, 4 155 mi races, in 1 yr, through the Atacama Crossing(avg 8000’ elev) in March, Gobi in June, Sahara in October, and Antarctica in November. each race take place over seven days and six stages. A campsite is raised each night for competitors where they are provided a tent to sleep, hot water, campfire, and medical assistance. they must carry all their own supplies with them during the race.
name a single animal that can do all these races.
[/quote]
Only race I know of that an animal ran in. But, you get the point
[/quote]
Man vs Horse race: Man versus Horse Marathon - Wikipedia
[quote]ziah wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/91
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/46
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft/combine/_/id/47
Those are all the linemen 40 times at the combine this year, most of whom won’t even make it in the NFL. Only 2 guys ran over 5.5, both of whom weigh in at over 320.
The point is not whether or not YOU can run a 6 second 40 anyway. The point is that these guys who you said aren’t athletically impressive to you are weighing in at essentially twice your weight, and are running faster than most humans. If you decide to check out those links, you should take a look at some of the other data too. There are some pretty outstanding vertical leaps in there. Matt Patchan, for example, ran a sub 5 second 40, vertical leap at 33", bench pressed 225 for 22 reps, and he’s 6’6 300 lbs. That certainly impresses me.[/quote]
Yeah, I definitely have a lot more respect for NFL players now after reviewing the data. I didn’t think the huge guys were THAT athletic.
I still have doubts that they’re the most impressive well-rounded athletes though. I also still don’t see how they exemplify having endurance and for me that’s the deal breaker.
Come zombie apocalypse time, endurance will be very important. [/quote]
Out of all the athletic attributes that have been discussed in this forum, I think cardiovascular endurance is the easiest and fastest to train and improve. There are far more humans who can run extraordinarily long distances, compete in ironman triathlons, etc than there are humans who can do the things that elite football players can do athletically. The combination of power, speed, and agility they display, in my opinion, is far more impressive and rare than the endurance that, say, pro soccer players have.
Athletic ability or fitness is always context-specific. Even terms like “strength” and “power” are meaningless unless expressed in relation to a specific physical act. Some people may be endowed with traits that are useful in many different activities, but there is no such thing as a most well-rounded type of athlete.
[quote]
Out of all the athletic attributes that have been discussed in this forum, I think cardiovascular endurance is the easiest and fastest to train and improve. There are far more humans who can run extraordinarily long distances, compete in ironman triathlons, etc than there are humans who can do the things that elite football players can do athletically. The combination of power, speed, and agility they display, in my opinion, is far more impressive and rare than the endurance that, say, pro soccer players have. [/quote]
Your logic almost made sense, but then I realized you just have an overinflated sense of fast twitch is hands down, no questions, more impressive than slow twitch. Your comment also seems to imply that you can take any NFL athlete, and condition them into being a COMPETITIVE marathon runner.
On top of cardiovascular endurance you mention, there’s also MUSCULAR endurance. That’s where the fasttwitch/slowtwitch stuff comes into play.
The key here is COMPETITIVE. I highly doubt that you can take someone like even Deion Sanders who was ridiculously naturally talented at what he did and make him a marathon runner that would be able to COMPETE against the elite.
People are NATURALLY gifted for certain sports - some have a higher percent of slow twitch, others have a higher percent of fast twitch. Most people that are average have average twitch [~50/50]. Sure, you can train your body to adapt more to another style, but there is a limit.
Personally, I’m naturally stronger in terms of power/fast twitch over slow twitch - not by much, but I know that I can pick up sprinting WAY faster than it takes for me to pick up my cardiovascular/muscular endurance levels.
My main point - you seem to discount endurance because “anyone can do it” - but not anyone can do it well and at the top level.
In conclusion, I’d have to give it to the Rugby players. They pretty much seem to be football players + endurance.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]silverblood wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ziah wrote:
Also, to the guy who said that endurance doesn’t really matter - really? Endurance is the ONLY area in which our species has the leg up on all other animals.
[/quote]
I seriously doubt this is true. How would you even prove it?[/quote]
Huh, funny I thought that was the case, but I guess not. There are a few animals out there than can out run humans for endurance:
I’ll admit it, my argument of humans being “top-dog” when it comes to endurance is invalid. [/quote]
just as an example here is someone that isn’t even the best in his sport.
Dean Karnazes, an ultra marathoner, ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days and did the NYC marathon as his final in 3 hrs. started to run back to San Francisco but stopped in Missouri to spend more time with his family.
ran from Disneyland to New York in 75 days.
Ran 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep.
148 miles in 24 hours on a treadmill.
swam across San Francisco Bay
completed The Relay, 200 mile race ran by teams of ten that each person runs 10 miles then is driven to their next stage, solo at least 11 times.
won(several top 5 finishes) the Badwater Ultra in under 28 hrs(not the record time). it’s 135 miles starting in Badwater Basin Death Vally @280’ below sea level and climbs to @8400’ on Mt Whitney in July.
Western States 100 where runners climb a total of 18,090 feet and descend a total of 22,970 feet through the Sierra Nevadas and have to finish in under 30 hrs. 11 time Silver Buckleholder(finish under 24 hrs)
won the 4 Deserts Grand Slam, 4 155 mi races, in 1 yr, through the Atacama Crossing(avg 8000’ elev) in March, Gobi in June, Sahara in October, and Antarctica in November. each race take place over seven days and six stages. A campsite is raised each night for competitors where they are provided a tent to sleep, hot water, campfire, and medical assistance. they must carry all their own supplies with them during the race.
name a single animal that can do all these races.
[/quote]
Only race I know of that an animal ran in. But, you get the point
[/quote]
I haven’t read the whole thread but is it taking place in a world where hockey isn’t a sport? I’m likely siding with NFL players as a lot of them are straight up freaks, but they also blow out rather quickly.
Professional hockey players are pretty strong guys. Mentally tough. Agile. Powerful. Coordinated. Many of them play upwards of 10+ years.
I’d argue that the Stanley Cup is the most difficult (grueling?) championship to win in all of sports. Playing high level bang up games every second night for months. Guys playing with broken bones and punctured lungs. Not many sports have that.
I respect everyone’s opinion but for me the complete athlete is the athletes that compete in the decthelon they are well rounded in all aspects of a any sport from speed to power to have the ability to be agile like a gymnast and have the power of a weight lifter the way they toss the shot put throw a discuss and the hammer throw.
Just watched the Crossfit 14.3 workout. They did the competition in New Orleans and had Sean Peyton as a guest commentator. Open Announcement 14.3: New Orleans - YouTube competition begins at 23:30. After the competition in their cool down talk, Dave Castro said no athlete from any sport, including football, can just show up and dominate the sport. (SEAN PEYTON AGREED.) You have to have Years of Crossfiting under your belt to be good at it. Thoughts?
And for an all around athlete, I’m going to have to pick Decathlete, because you have to be good at everything… cream of the crop as far as I’m concerned. Crossfit comes as a close second…as much as I hate to admit it…you have to be in impeccable shape to compete at a high level…probably should put Crossfit first. There’s more you’re required to be good at in Crossfit.