The Mexican States of America

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I am curious if those who believe that individuals possess natural rights include the freedom of movement in that basket of natural rights.

Fox News pundit Judge Andrew Napolitano does:

http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/31/immigration-and-freedom[/quote]

I believe in natural individual rights, including freedom of movement. I put that in the basket right next to that “pursuit of happiness” thing. As long as I’m free to move out when the other eggs start getting smashed.

I really like Judge Napolitano. Shame he has to share a surname with that cile vunt who used to run DHS.

63

You can blame my Mustard and Flan loving Spaniard ancestors for throwing the monkey wrench in the
whole ‘flow’ of this hemisphere’s history…most of my family is Catalan, but I don’t
think any Conquistadors came from the Northeast of Spain but it may explain
my fucking crazy demeanor…IDK much other than we tried to Conquer a good chunk of the World and
were a royal pain in the ass to the Brits, and vice versa…''WE Claim this land for the Queen of OH NO
it’s those fucking Conquistadors again".

64

So Push… Now I’m curious. What point did I make that you disagreed with, that you now say I’m backpedalling on?

Because as far as I can tell, the only time you contradicted anything I actually said was when I said (or implied, rather) that humans are native to Africa.

And I have not retreated from that position.

What else have you got?

66

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Cheap labor helps American businesses thrive, but not for Americans who pay taxes, and need to achieve a standard of living because they don’t live tax free… how is this good for America? Or are you referring to lining the pockets of the CEO’s, COO’s, and stock holders?

What is a cyote? Sorry I may not know the lingo.

Stationing our overseas troops to defend our border, giving them actual work instead of “laying off” military because they are too expensive, is one way to close our borders. You don’t need walls just barbed wire fences and armed guards given permission to fire upon anyone attempting to cross in an “unsanctioned zone.”

I have a sneaking suspicion you either don’t pay much for taxes, or don’t pay much attention to how much of your income is taken by taxes and what percentage of that is fed to people who literally do nothing and offer nothing to a country that is coddling them on our dime.[/quote]

Coyote’s, people who make a living moving other people across the U.S. boarder. They tend to be pretty dangerous folks as are most human traffickers.

When I think about the U.S. militarizing the U.S. Borders, I imagine we end up in another war. But the messed up thing is we end up at war with what is ultimately just a middle man. While we are at war with Mexican drug cartels we will see what happens to the entities within the U.S. who benefit from illegal labor and make money hand over fist, then talk like illegal aliens are the devil. I suspect Mexicans will be quite demonized during this time and other entities will find ways to get drugs into the country or continue building the infrastructure to manufacture them within the country. As it is a lot of the meth products coming from Mex are imported from Asia/ China… Coke is from Columbia/S. America and a tiny portion from Mexico itself…

At least folks like you would see reality for what it is. What will we do? React by sending more jobs to China. How giving China jobs gets a pass in the Republican mind is beyond me. Aren’t they red China commies? I’ll tell you this, Mexico isn’t producing any of the raw materials for drugs, other than really crappy Marijuana that hardly anybody buys.

Comedy gold to me man. Go ahead, militarize the border, you will do Mexico a favor. [/quote]

Exactly what US business entities are making money hand over fist using illegals?

Maybe it happens and I just haven’t seen it, but people are acting like Halliburton and Citi are raking in billions off of the backs of illegal immigrants.

Maybe there are some huge agricultural conglomerates? Who are they?

The only companies employing illegals that I’ve seen have been scummy landscape outfits who won’t pay enough to get regular native labor, and they sure as hell aren’t making money hand over fist. Maybe enough to buy a couple of eight balls on the weekend and fool themselves into thinking that they’re doin it right, but not nearly enough to make up for their lack of actual skill or acumen.
[/quote]

20 years ago, college kids made up the bulk of the landscapers by me. A few kids in a pickup truck with some hand mowers and basic gardening tools. They started in May, worked until they went back to school. Maybe a few that went to school locally kept it going on the weekends.

But nobody wants to bust their ass cutting lawns. I did it all through high school and always has $$ in my pocket.

Now the crews are all Mexicans and Central Americans. Legal or not, who knows? My last year’s landscaping bill came to $147 per month for the citting season. They were always in & out in 15 minutes and my yard looked mint. So I guess the owners were doing pretty well. I was talking to one of the workers last year about what he does in the winter. They go back home and live like kings for 3-4 months and they send $$ home every week. So I don’t think they’re doing that badly.

Rob[/quote]

It’s not just small business, if you look at the history of it you will see that Agriculture as well as the meat industry were virtually dependent on illegal labor for profit. Very well documented and studied.

The small business stuff shows the extent of it. Restaurant cooks, housekeepers, maintenance men, construction workers, janitors, warehouse workers…

There are those who say they send money home, it happens. There are also quite a few people who just scratch out a living and will tell you whatever to keep their sense of dignity and pride. For every cheap wage, there are also the slumlords, I’ll tell you some of the ones I know are the scum of the earth. One of the ones I’m a little more familiar with owns many properties, many rooms worth over a hundred mil and recently spent time in jail for theiving copper pipe from a worksite to hook up one of his properties. Also, the guy had a chance to either go to jail, or live in one of his units for a month, he chose jail lol. Dario Pini Nominated to Landlord Hall of Shame - The Santa Barbara Independent

This dude would house underage back page girls illegally imported from Myanmar and not bat an eye.

Just pointing it out. There are ways to make money off of illegals :slight_smile: since some of you don’t believe it’s possible or that it ever happens.

67

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Cheap labor helps American businesses thrive, but not for Americans who pay taxes, and need to achieve a standard of living because they don’t live tax free… how is this good for America? Or are you referring to lining the pockets of the CEO’s, COO’s, and stock holders?

What is a cyote? Sorry I may not know the lingo.

Stationing our overseas troops to defend our border, giving them actual work instead of “laying off” military because they are too expensive, is one way to close our borders. You don’t need walls just barbed wire fences and armed guards given permission to fire upon anyone attempting to cross in an “unsanctioned zone.”

I have a sneaking suspicion you either don’t pay much for taxes, or don’t pay much attention to how much of your income is taken by taxes and what percentage of that is fed to people who literally do nothing and offer nothing to a country that is coddling them on our dime.[/quote]

It’s your conservative philosophies that equivocate businesses/ corporations to people. What, you don’t love YOUR people? :slight_smile: CEO’s, COO’s, Stockholders have their share of rich republicans… Many of which I’m sure are also individuals that make up many different corporations, but there you go pointing the finger at Mexicans in particular.

Hey, since CEO’s get to be basically two people (the individual and the corporation) doesn’t that make them as important as two people? Seems that way, they get twice the rights of you and me, and you like it that way don’t you…

Whats that saying from the bible, remove the plank from your own eye? :slight_smile: I’ll let you finish that one off. [/quote]

Your misuse of platitudes is astonishing. I don’t even know what you’re trying to say.[/quote]

Look at the pot calling the kettle black. :slight_smile:

68

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Bottom line is native Americans were invading and repelling “natives,” “immigrants” and “migrants” long, long before Leif Erikson and Christopher Columbus anted up.
[/quote]

Precisely my point. The aboriginals had a culture and technology sufficiently developed to protect the borders of their ancestral lands and repel invading tribes similarly equipped as they. Had any of the invading European tribes met a contingent of indiginous cavalry armed with steel armor, swords and firearms, the history of our continent would have been a very different one. For a while, at least.

Our ability to repel invaders or immigrants is limited only by our technical ability to do so, not by any legal, moral or cultural rights we may have to the land we are defending or invading. As it stands, we (as inheritors of the European conquests) seem to be doing a pretty poor job of it, and may eventually find out what it feels like to be displaced from our ancestral lands.

Perhaps, as Malcolm X would say, the chickens are coming home to roost.

And all the king’s horses and all the kings men can’t seem to prevent them from roosting again. [/quote]

Little off, everyone talks about steel, gunpowder and cavalry… But in reality it was mostly cavalry/ whites immunity to diseases brought about by animal husbandry. 90% of the native populace of the new world were died to European disease.

Nobody wants to fight when everyone they know is already dead.

69

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

Yep, apparently neither my grandfather nor myself had blue enough eyes or blonde enough hair for their taste back then…
.[/quote]

This is borderline pathetic. He didn’t mention your race a single time.

Why do you play this shitty Alinsky game? You are brighter than this.

So according to this thread, if I was to say the following, I’m now a racist and responsible for the genocide of the Native American?

The dialogue between Chushin and I isn’t limited to this thread. He brings up my Grandfather, who I argue did what the U.S. wanted him to do by coming here illegally and taking up work. There was a known demand for labor in this nation, and we already had a history of inviting Mexico over to pick the crops, then turn around and call them criminals. I explained this, coupled with basic concepts of supply and demand.

I would imagine it’s kinda like a woman telling her boyfriend she doesn’t like some dude, after he just observed her with that dude on the dance floor grinding away, kissing, and exchanging numbers. Are you going to believe your own eyes, or what your woman told you?

America, and American business has depended on illegal, or immoral agriculture since it has been around. There has always been a demand for that sort of labor, I’ve voiced that I’m proud my grandfather filled that roll, he retorts and calls my grandfather a criminal… I retort I’m still proud, I went through quite a bit to try and show him we are more similar than we are different, but that doesn’t always go across so well haha.

So, me having been stationed in Japan and knowing how things really are over there and in Asia in general when it comes to the whole blonde hair blue eyes thing, coupled with their concepts of superiority which are still present to this day… It’s pretty fun to tease. That the Japanese generally fawn all over pretty white folks, but treat their own indigenous people like crap because it highlights the lie that their race is homogenous doesn’t seem to go over very well with Chushin because it implies the level of racism amongst Asians, that he gets to completely avoid lol. He doesn’t like the idea that white privilege exists in Asia in a strange way, or the way I implied it…

71

The power of demographic change is an unstoppable force. The best one can hope for is to assimilate the immigrants into the shared value system. But in an age of ever rapidly growing populations , this is becoming more and more difficult.

72

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

Yep, apparently neither my grandfather nor myself had blue enough eyes or blonde enough hair for their taste back then…
.[/quote]

This is borderline pathetic. He didn’t mention your race a single time.

Why do you play this shitty Alinsky game? You are brighter than this.

So according to this thread, if I was to say the following, I’m now a racist and responsible for the genocide of the Native American?

The dialogue between Chushin and I isn’t limited to this thread. He brings up my Grandfather, who I argue did what the U.S. wanted him to do by coming here illegally and taking up work. There was a known demand for labor in this nation, and we already had a history of inviting Mexico over to pick the crops, then turn around and call them criminals. I explained this, coupled with basic concepts of supply and demand.

I would imagine it’s kinda like a woman telling her boyfriend she doesn’t like some dude, after he just observed her with that dude on the dance floor grinding away, kissing, and exchanging numbers. Are you going to believe your own eyes, or what your woman told you?

America, and American business has depended on illegal, or immoral agriculture since it has been around. There has always been a demand for that sort of labor, I’ve voiced that I’m proud my grandfather filled that roll, he retorts and calls my grandfather a criminal… I retort I’m still proud, I went through quite a bit to try and show him we are more similar than we are different, but that doesn’t always go across so well haha.
[/quote]

Bullshit.

You said what your grandfather did “wasn’t a crime.”

And you completely ignored Beans point.

I guess crying racism is easier than accepting that some people are opposed to ILLEGALS like your grandfather.

FTR, I wholeheartedly support LEGAL Mexican immigrants.

Criminals like your grandfather should be deported ASAP.

You know, kind of like Mexico does with their illegals?[/quote]

If the laws are stupid, unjust, and don’t reflect the reality of society then they are basically lies. Objectively you are correct though, just like people who took part in interracial marriage were criminals for a time. Would we today call Othello and Desdemona criminals? I guess you could say so technically, but ethically we know it’s bullshit… Just like the immigration laws, especially during the 1920’s and 30’s. I bring up interacial marriages because interestingly it was illegal up until nearly the 50’s in most states.

Like I said before, had they come here legally they would have been treated like criminals (my grandfather and his older brother)… I already explained the Bracero program and how well that went as far as it’s human rights history. I’m proud of what my Grandfather and his brother did and were a part of. I’m proud as possible. I hope you see how this answers Bean’s question.

I’ll shoot back another… We are supposed to follow the avenues of the law and what is right, well we have been trying to do that for nearly 200 years. To us, we look at history and see the same, when you want us, we are your heroes. All other times, we see fingers pointing at us, being called lazy, dirty, freeloaders. Same shit has been going on, so how am I supposed to take a proposition about following laws that beans highlighted seriously? If we had followed laws, we would have been Bracero’s! Forget that noise! That’s more of the same hero when you need us, dirty beaner when the crops are picked. Given this history, how are people supposed to take propositions of following the law seriously? Fingers still point at the weak, rather than those pulling the knobs on the machine which created the predicament in the first place? Had we followed laws in the past we would have been boned, so please, tell me how you trust an entity it has established quite clearly it isn’t trustworthy?

73

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The power of demographic change is an unstoppable force. The best one can hope for is to assimilate the immigrants into the shared value system. But in an age of ever rapidly growing populations , this is becoming more and more difficult.[/quote]

I’d be happy if everyone that came into the US paid into the system that supports them. Fat chance of this becoming a widespread practice in our too-liberal society. Back in the day, immigrants wanted to give something back for being in this country. Now all they want to do is take and not give anything.

Rob

75

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The power of demographic change is an unstoppable force. The best one can hope for is to assimilate the immigrants into the shared value system. But in an age of ever rapidly growing populations , this is becoming more and more difficult.[/quote]

I’d be happy if everyone that came into the US paid into the system that supports them. Fat chance of this becoming a widespread practice in our too-liberal society. Back in the day, immigrants wanted to give something back for being in this country. Now all they want to do is take and not give anything.

Rob[/quote]

Really? It seems to me the hardest working people I have come across have been mexicans in construction and pickers. Maybe it is because I am so far from the border but I just don’t see it.

76

[quote]Chushin wrote:
.[/quote]

I have a lot of respect for you, but your vehemence on this subject seems uncharacteristic.

I don’t know the answer to the immigration issue. A lot of what Severino is saying is true about migrant labor. I know the farmers in northern michigan are in a bind right now due to the lack of migrant pickers and no one else willing to do the work. Maybe the answer is an exchange program, We could send the people here that don’t want to work to mexico in exchange for people willing to do back breaking work for little pay.

I would like to think that if I was in the same situation with really no hope of immigrating legally that I would have the courage to go wherever I could build a better life for my family.

77

[quote]Severiano wrote:

I’ll shoot back another… We are supposed to follow the avenues of the law and what is right, well we have been trying to do that for nearly 200 years. To us, we look at history and see the same, when you want us, we are your heroes. All other times, we see fingers pointing at us, being called lazy, dirty, freeloaders. Same shit has been going on, so how am I supposed to take a proposition about following laws that beans highlighted seriously? If we had followed laws, we would have been Bracero’s! Forget that noise! That’s more of the same hero when you need us, dirty beaner when the crops are picked. Given this history, how are people supposed to take propositions of following the law seriously? Fingers still point at the weak, rather than those pulling the knobs on the machine which created the predicament in the first place? Had we followed laws in the past we would have been boned, so please, tell me how you trust an entity it has established quite clearly it isn’t trustworthy? [/quote]

You touch on the very crux of the issue here. It is the law that is broken, well rather facilitation of law that is completely broken.

So government (mainly democrats) are taking failures of government that are by all accounts at least 50% their own fault, and using their failure to buy illegals’ votes once granted the ability to exercise their rights, many of whom happen to be from Mexico.

If the Democrats (or Republicans for that matter) actually cared about the immigrant population, they would fix the laws, not grant amnesty every 30-40 years in order to booster voting stock.

AT some point being a representative means actually caring for the people and the country, and not just who they vote for.

We need term limits.

78

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
.[/quote]

I have a lot of respect for you, but your vehemence on this subject seems uncharacteristic.

I don’t know the answer to the immigration issue. A lot of what Severino is saying is true about migrant labor. I know the farmers in northern michigan are in a bind right now due to the lack of migrant pickers and no one else willing to do the work. Maybe the answer is an exchange program, We could send the people here that don’t want to work to mexico in exchange for people willing to do back breaking work for little pay.

I would like to think that if I was in the same situation with really no hope of immigrating legally that I would have the courage to go wherever I could build a better life for my family.[/quote]

I have met more than one American Teenage suffering from “entitlement syndrome” that I would LOVE to see spend some time in the dregs of Mexico earning the shit they bitch about.

Thinking about it, I was probably one of those 17 years ago that could have used that kick in the ass.

80

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
.[/quote]

I have a lot of respect for you, but your vehemence on this subject seems uncharacteristic.

I don’t know the answer to the immigration issue. A lot of what Severino is saying is true about migrant labor. I know the farmers in northern michigan are in a bind right now due to the lack of migrant pickers and no one else willing to do the work. Maybe the answer is an exchange program, We could send the people here that don’t want to work to mexico in exchange for people willing to do back breaking work for little pay.

I would like to think that if I was in the same situation with really no hope of immigrating legally that I would have the courage to go wherever I could build a better life for my family.[/quote]

On my phone, and it’s late here, so I’ll keep this briefer than you deserve.

Sure, I guess anyone would go wherever things were better. But I honestly believe that allowing large numbers of undocumented people to come and stay in a country is completely untenable. Said country will suffer, and badly, IMO.

Just because we all understand the drive to have a better life doesn’t mean we have to allow our country to suffer all sorts of negative effects of illegal immigration. I wish we could save everybody, but we can’t, and we only hurt ourselves when we try to.

And my bottom line: if we need more apple pickers, or want to “help” other people, we can do it in a LEGAL manner. But illegal solutions are not in anyone’s best interest.

Finally, and this is likely my own issue, I wouldn’t be nearly so hard on a guy who said “Yeah, my gramps broke the law, which is wrong, and understandably bothers some Americans, but he was just doing what he had to to survive.” But the arrogance, entitlement and rationalization that people like Sev show irritates me. Sue me, I guess. :slight_smile:

Hope you have a good day.[/quote]

I don’t feel the need to make excuses. If you had a similar experiences you would feel the same, because you haven’t encountered people that don’t give a second thought as to who’s working for them, what the pay is, they just say this is the job, this is what I’ll pay. If what offers their hand are a couple 9-10 year olds and their grandfather, that’s what they will take. They don’t care if it’s kids hot mopping a roof, or an old decrepid mestizo moving sandbags and cement with an obviously thrashed lumbar. My gramps used to take my cousin and myself to jobs that were for grown ass men because he always took work where he could get it. I’ve seen people lowball my grandfather after we finished jobs as well, which is a very ugly thing to see when you are a kid, even uglier to reflect on once you really grasp the gravity of it all. These were people with money and property, so if I come across a certain way it’s because I’ve been around this block once already. My grandfather walked around it many of times and it’s pretty much stayed the same. Beaner, wetback, lazy, feeloader, job stealer, etc…

I feel it’s more important to do things like call it for what it is, and pointing out that it has been going on, specifically with Mexicans for nearly 200 years in one way or another. I’m not saying ONLY Mexicans, I’m just pointing that part out, doing my part to report that people are still people, demand is still demand… Free market baby… Once you understand that, you understand you need to target the policies themselves, and punish the people who allow that demand be filled by illegal means, rather than demonize the people who are just looking to get by.

So long as there is demand, it’s gonna get filled. The only solution I can see is a partial one, and that’s heavy fines on people and companies who use illegal labor. Remember this isn’t an Island we are talking about.