I thought they were only doing jobs those working here legally didn’t want?
No shit! Supply and demand.
So Americans pay more for the exact same services.
Um, yippee?
no shit. they had to pay higher wages and put out some bonuses to entice people to work at a plant that just got RAIDED by the federal government.
just like if there was a shooting spree by some disgruntled employee, wages and bonuses would go up.
or a massive carbon monoxide leak that people were exposed to, even if no one died, wages and bonuses would go up.
you generally have to pay people more in volatile work places.
may have been more interesting or suit the point you’re trying to make if all the illegals at the plant for some reason quietly quite and wages went up for everyone.
“Study”? What’s next? A study telling us that water is wet?
Hes trying to say the immigrants were ruining things for the rest of us.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
Hes trying to say the immigrants were ruining things for the rest of us. [/quote]
Maybe for the working class, but for others cheap labor.
[quote]orion wrote:
So Americans pay more for the exact same services.
Um, yippee?
[/quote]
And when wages are depressed by a class of people whose tax (not paying) and legal (hard to make demands on the job, when you’re illegal) status give them incentive to hire themselves out for the cheap, who cares? I’d almost wager that they cost us MORE in public services, crime, etc. They experience more generations in poverty than natives do. Meaning, their progeny are less likely to be producers, but a tax and public services consumer. Schools, prisons, hit and run (drunk with no insurance), health services, etc. We don’t live in a country where an immigrant is solely responsible for the cost of his family’s health education.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
So Americans pay more for the exact same services.
Um, yippee?
And when wages are depressed by a class of people whose tax (not paying) and legal (hard to make demands on the job, when you’re illegal) status give them incentive to hire themselves out for the cheap, who cares? I’d almost wager that they cost us MORE in public services, crime, etc. They experience more generations in poverty than natives do. Meaning, their progeny are less likely to be producers, but a tax and public services consumer. Schools, prisons, hit and run (drunk with no insurance), health services, etc. We don’t live in a country where an immigrant is solely responsible for the cost of his family’s health education. [/quote]
I have yet to see an conclusive evidense of what you describe. All we get are bits and pieces with only one side of the story. I have yet to see one argument weighed against the other in the same study.
This is way too complex for most of the voting public anyway. It would require actual numbers, mathmatics, and reason. That is why we stuck with the following:
“they are doing jobs americans don’t want to do”
or
“we were all immigrants”
or
“we have to secure the boarder for security purposes”
or
“they are taking american jobs”
This the state of politics in this county and it’s not becuase of the politicians. It’s because we don’t demand any better.
Actual analysis and logic is dead. It has been replaced with political rhetoric and sound bites.
It is supply and demand, plain and simple. These corporate farms love the immigration , legal or not , that way they can get away with out even paying a livable wage, I know of some of these farms that pay 11 or 12 dollars an hour , to get some one to do the job may require 20 dollars an hour. That is what all of the free traders want, unless it is a free labor market
Pittbull, it is not what the corporations want it is what the customers want.
A corporation will pay the demanded wage regardless of what it is as long as there is a demand from consumers to purchase the product they produce and they can turn a profit.
What this means is that now, because the labor supply is lower wages will be higher, output will be lower and their prices must therefore be higher (because of reduced supply). It is a loss for all consumers that corporations cannot freely contract with any labor supply they want for what ever wage that can be had.
Also, you should be real careful about spewing the line of rhetoric about “livable wages”. If you make a wage that cannot support your current lifestyle that means you have to reevaluate what you consider necessary, find a different job, or get a second one. No one owes anyone a “livable” wage.
For example, imagine the simple street vender peddling produce on the corner: whose fault is it if he can not earn a “livable” wage at it?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Pittbull, it is not what the corporations want it is what the customers want.
A corporation will pay the demanded wage regardless of what it is as long as there is a demand from consumers to purchase the product they produce and they can turn a profit.
What this means is that now, because the labor supply is lower wages will be higher, output will be lower and their prices must therefore be higher (because of reduced supply). It is a loss for all consumers that corporations cannot freely contract with any labor supply they want for what ever wage that can be had.
Also, you should be real careful about spewing the line of rhetoric about “livable wages”. If you make a wage that cannot support your current lifestyle that means you have to reevaluate what you consider necessary, find a different job, or get a second one. No one owes anyone a “livable” wage.
For example, imagine the simple street vender peddling produce on the corner: whose fault is it if he can not earn a “livable” wage at it?[/quote]
I personally do not see any rhetoric in the theory that the Illegal and the legal immigration suppress the wages to the point that no one can live on them. Granted we would have to pay more for our food, but if we paid more, we would probably have more family farms and less corporate farms,
I like your analogy about the street vendor, we have two vendors , one that steals his vegetables and had to pay no taxes. The second a legitimate vendor buys his on an open market and has to pass health inspections he has to buy all applicable permits and pay any sales taxes?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Pittbull, it is not what the corporations want it is what the customers want.
A corporation will pay the demanded wage regardless of what it is as long as there is a demand from consumers to purchase the product they produce and they can turn a profit.
What this means is that now, because the labor supply is lower wages will be higher, output will be lower and their prices must therefore be higher (because of reduced supply). It is a loss for all consumers that corporations cannot freely contract with any labor supply they want for what ever wage that can be had.
Also, you should be real careful about spewing the line of rhetoric about “livable wages”. If you make a wage that cannot support your current lifestyle that means you have to reevaluate what you consider necessary, find a different job, or get a second one. No one owes anyone a “livable” wage.
For example, imagine the simple street vender peddling produce on the corner: whose fault is it if he can not earn a “livable” wage at it?
I personally do not see any rhetoric in the theory that the Illegal and the legal immigration suppress the wages to the point that no one can live on them. Granted we would have to pay more for our food, but if we paid more, we would probably have more family farms and less corporate farms,
I like your analogy about the street vendor, we have two vendors , one that steals his vegetables and had to pay no taxes. The second a legitimate vendor buys his on an open market and has to pass health inspections he has to buy all applicable permits and pay any sales taxes?
[/quote]
The problem is the system itself not “illegal” immigrants. The fact that a larger labor supply makes us better off cannot be ignored. If the same number of people were to come out and apply for these jobs that were forced out of the labor market they would be back to a lower wage (unless they become unionized and institute some form of labor protection).
More people working means more stuff. More stuff means cheaper stuff which means the “cost of living” comes down too.
And the real thieves are not the immigrants but rather the government which forces you to pay taxes on your income at gun point.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Pittbull, it is not what the corporations want it is what the customers want.
A corporation will pay the demanded wage regardless of what it is as long as there is a demand from consumers to purchase the product they produce and they can turn a profit.
What this means is that now, because the labor supply is lower wages will be higher, output will be lower and their prices must therefore be higher (because of reduced supply). It is a loss for all consumers that corporations cannot freely contract with any labor supply they want for what ever wage that can be had.
Also, you should be real careful about spewing the line of rhetoric about “livable wages”. If you make a wage that cannot support your current lifestyle that means you have to reevaluate what you consider necessary, find a different job, or get a second one. No one owes anyone a “livable” wage.
For example, imagine the simple street vender peddling produce on the corner: whose fault is it if he can not earn a “livable” wage at it?
I personally do not see any rhetoric in the theory that the Illegal and the legal immigration suppress the wages to the point that no one can live on them. Granted we would have to pay more for our food, but if we paid more, we would probably have more family farms and less corporate farms,
I like your analogy about the street vendor, we have two vendors , one that steals his vegetables and had to pay no taxes. The second a legitimate vendor buys his on an open market and has to pass health inspections he has to buy all applicable permits and pay any sales taxes?
The problem is the system itself not “illegal” immigrants. The fact that a larger labor supply makes us better off cannot be ignored. If the same number of people were to come out and apply for these jobs that were forced out of the labor market they would be back to a lower wage (unless they become unionized and institute some form of labor protection).
More people working means more stuff. More stuff means cheaper stuff which means the “cost of living” comes down too.
And the real thieves are not the immigrants but rather the government which forces you to pay taxes on your income at gun point.[/quote]
?The problem is the system itself not “illegal” immigrants. ?Now this sounds like rhetoric.
I agree cheaper prices are a short up side to cheap labor, but the long side is a growing lower class that can not support the cheap prices the masses have gotten used to.
I do agree with you taxes are a bitch. I hate paying them, but we have a lot of services and systems designed to help the masses. And we have to pay for them. I wish there was a good way to communicate with our government when we think they are wasting our money, but D hikey said it his self. The problem is too complicated for the voters. I think our government can make communicating too complicated
As far as the real thieves, they are the top one percent of the wage earners. They make fifty percent of all reportable income. That is not even talking money sheltered. That is where your income redistribution is going
[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Hes trying to say the immigrants were ruining things for the rest of us.
Maybe for the working class, but for others cheap labor.[/quote]
The majority of citizens in any country are working class, so any democratic government is obligated to protect the interests of working-class people.
Threats such as a flood of illegal, cheap labour due to insecure borders.
ElbowStrike
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Hes trying to say the immigrants were ruining things for the rest of us.
Maybe for the working class, but for others cheap labor.
The majority of citizens in any country are working class, so any democratic government is obligated to protect the interests of working-class people.
Threats such as a flood of illegal, cheap labour due to insecure borders.
ElbowStrike[/quote]
We are not a democracy. We are a republic.
Takes more than cheap labor to keep a country together.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Takes more than cheap labor to keep a country together. [/quote]
There’s a phrase that describes a country where the wealth is concentrated in the hands of very few powerful families and associations, while the masses are exploited as cheap labour.
We call that country a “third world nation”.
Please don’t let America slide in the direction of a 3rd-world economy because if you go down, we go with you.
Onto another track though, the illegal immigration issue can really be boiled down to this one word: illegal.
I forget which public figure said it, but I loved it: “what part of ILLEGAL do people not understand!?”
If you’re in a country – ANY country illegally, you should be kicked out. I don’t care if you’re a “really nice person” or have a job picking fruit. If your visa’s expired or you snuck in. That’s breaking the rules. Get. Out. Now.
Letting illegals stay is the moral equivalent of giving a chronic alcoholic a healthy transplant liver, even though there are a list of donors waiting who followed the rules and didn’t drink any alcohol during the waiting period.
ElbowStrike
Glad to see some common sense , not the normal retoric that profits that top 1%