[quote]pushharder wrote:
There is no such thing as a true native American. Everyone, every single last human being alive in America, has immigrated here or their ancestors did.[/quote]
By that reasoning there are no native Europeans, Asians, South Americans or Australians, either.
Had the indigenous peoples of our continent the legal and technological means to repel unwanted immigrants, they would have done so.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Better yet, we should ask Third Ruffian his opinion on the damage unwanted illegal immigration can do to a society.
[/quote]
Which immigration is this of which you speak? Be specific.[/quote]
As I was referencing Third Ruffian, probably the Spanish conquest of the Southwest.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Is colonization a form of illegal immigration? I know some smart ass will say that there were no laws prohibiting Europeans from coming to the New World and displacing, enslaving and killing Indians but there is right and wrong, some would say even natural laws, and they were also Christians who were supposed to follow more than man’s law. It’s also why I qualified it with “form” of illegal immigration.
I’m not saying what’s going on now is right but the not so subtle racist undertones of some arguments here and a sense of being on some moral high ground tells me that some need a reminder that their ancestors were either Indian killing sociopaths or, were viewed as Mexicans are today (Jews, Irish, Italians, etc.) Chances are that your ancestors were not wanted nor welcomed here either. If they were among the first Europeans it was the Indians who didn’t want them. If they were later immigrants (Irish, Jews, Italians, etc.) then the Europeans that preceded them didn’t want them. [/quote]
Okay, vagina-looker. My ancestors didn’t come here illegally.[/quote]
Vagina looker? I could think of worse things to look at. I would come up with a pet name for you too but…I’m not gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Is colonization a form of illegal immigration? I know some smart ass will say that there were no laws prohibiting Europeans from coming to the New World and displacing, enslaving and killing Indians but there is right and wrong, some would say even natural laws, and they were also Christians who were supposed to follow more than man’s law. It’s also why I qualified it with “form” of illegal immigration.
I’m not saying what’s going on now is right but the not so subtle racist undertones of some arguments here and a sense of being on some moral high ground tells me that some need a reminder that their ancestors were either Indian killing sociopaths or, were viewed as Mexicans are today (Jews, Irish, Italians, etc.) Chances are that your ancestors were not wanted nor welcomed here either. If they were among the first Europeans it was the Indians who didn’t want them. If they were later immigrants (Irish, Jews, Italians, etc.) then the Europeans that preceded them didn’t want them. [/quote]
Do you accept responsibility for your ancestor’s actions and prostrate yourself to those they might have metaphorically harmed if only by some loose analogy of circumstance? [/quote]
No, but I also don’t look down on those who want to come here for the same reasons as my ancestors. Besides, my ancestors taught the world how to think so they can be forgiven for any flaws they might have had.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Is colonization a form of illegal immigration? I know some smart ass will say that there were no laws prohibiting Europeans from coming to the New World and displacing, enslaving and killing Indians but there is right and wrong, some would say even natural laws, and they were also Christians who were supposed to follow more than man’s law. It’s also why I qualified it with “form” of illegal immigration.
I’m not saying what’s going on now is right but the not so subtle racist undertones of some arguments here and a sense of being on some moral high ground tells me that some need a reminder that their ancestors were either Indian killing sociopaths or, were viewed as Mexicans are today (Jews, Irish, Italians, etc.) Chances are that your ancestors were not wanted nor welcomed here either. If they were among the first Europeans it was the Indians who didn’t want them. If they were later immigrants (Irish, Jews, Italians, etc.) then the Europeans that preceded them didn’t want them. [/quote]
Do you accept responsibility for your ancestor’s actions and prostrate yourself to those they might have metaphorically harmed if only by some loose analogy of circumstance? [/quote]
No, but I also don’t look down on those who want to come here for the same reasons as my ancestors. Besides, my ancestors taught the world how to think so they can be forgiven for any flaws they might have had.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
No, but I also don’t look down on those who want to come here for the same reasons as my ancestors. [/quote]
Fair enough. I guess sometimes I feel like people instantly think being “anti-amnesty” automatically equals “anti-immigrant”. It just isn’t the case. In this very thread Sev instantly assumed it was ethic background that was the rub, all while the rub was breaking a law.
Ha!
I’m at least like 25% French Canadian, and the rest is a mystery, so… I don’t have to apologize to shit.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I’m at least like 25% French Canadian, and the rest is a mystery, so… I don’t have to apologize to shit. [/quote]
French Canadian? Say it ain’t so… lol
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Besides, my ancestors taught the world how to think so they can be forgiven for any flaws they might have had.[/quote]
Your ancestors were the Monoliths? Awesome!
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Bottom line is native Americans were invading and repelling “natives,” “immigrants” and “migrants” long, long before Leif Erikson and Christopher Columbus anted up.
[/quote]
Precisely my point. The aboriginals had a culture and technology sufficiently developed to protect the borders of their ancestral lands and repel invading tribes similarly equipped as they. Had any of the invading European tribes met a contingent of indiginous cavalry armed with steel armor, swords and firearms, the history of our continent would have been a very different one. For a while, at least.
Our ability to repel invaders or immigrants is limited only by our technical ability to do so, not by any legal, moral or cultural rights we may have to the land we are defending or invading. As it stands, we (as inheritors of the European conquests) seem to be doing a pretty poor job of it, and may eventually find out what it feels like to be displaced from our ancestral lands.
Perhaps, as Malcolm X would say, the chickens are coming home to roost.
And all the king’s horses and all the kings men can’t seem to prevent them from roosting again.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Better yet, we should ask Third Ruffian his opinion on the damage unwanted illegal immigration can do to a society.
[/quote]
Which immigration is this of which you speak? Be specific.[/quote]
As I was referencing Third Ruffian, probably the Spanish conquest of the Southwest. [/quote]
OK, do you believe the Apache were the very first inhabitants of New Mexico?
For that matter, for example, do you believe the Sioux were the first inhabitants of North and South Dakota and had lived there since time immemorial? Answer: No, they ruthlessly invaded, tortured and killed the former inhabitants, namely the Crows, among many others. Yet, they are eulogized today as the “owners of the land that the white man took from them in the 19th century” even though the white man did exactly to them (with less overall violence) what the Sioux had done previously to others. Now you know why the Crows fought with the white man against their arch enemy, the Sioux, for much of the latter half of the 1800’s.
Nothing new under the sun. I don’t buy into the “Dances With Wolves” bullshit or any other kind of historical revisionism and/or outright falsehoods and omissions.[/quote]
Very good. But you are refuting a point that I’m not making.
Obviously not. The oldest stone arrowheads and spear points in what’s now New Mexico are associated with the Clovis paleolithic culture, which predates the arrival of Navajo and Apache by several centuries.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Is colonization a form of illegal immigration? I know some smart ass will say that there were no laws prohibiting Europeans from coming to the New World and displacing, enslaving and killing Indians but there is right and wrong, some would say even natural laws, and they were also Christians who were supposed to follow more than man’s law. It’s also why I qualified it with “form” of illegal immigration.
I’m not saying what’s going on now is right but the not so subtle racist undertones of some arguments here and a sense of being on some moral high ground tells me that some need a reminder that their ancestors were either Indian killing sociopaths or, were viewed as Mexicans are today (Jews, Irish, Italians, etc.) Chances are that your ancestors were not wanted nor welcomed here either. If they were among the first Europeans it was the Indians who didn’t want them. If they were later immigrants (Irish, Jews, Italians, etc.) then the Europeans that preceded them didn’t want them. [/quote]
Do you accept responsibility for your ancestor’s actions and prostrate yourself to those they might have metaphorically harmed if only by some loose analogy of circumstance? [/quote]
It seems to me his basic point–while made with a hostile tone–is that many or even most people think the gates need to close sometime, but that “sometime” is generally only after they have come in and been established here or had ancestors that did so for them. I can see how one could look across the locked gate and think its immoral to try and sneak in because doing so is illegal and at the same time be on the other side of the locked gate and think its the gate itself that’s immoral.
[/quote]
The gate is not locked.[/quote]
For most people it is locked.
In 2012, 14.8 million people entered the green-card lottery for 55,000 spots. So if you are in a class of potential immigrant who can only enter legally through the lottery (i.e., no immediate family ties or special work skills and not from Mexico, for example), the legal gate is closed for roughly 99.4% who apply each year and the overwhelming majority will never be allowed to enter immigrate legally no matter how long they wait. And I don’t think (I’m not 100% sure) Mexican nationals who don’t have either legal, close relatives in the U.S. or a U.S. employer-sponsor are even eligible for a greencard at all, lottery or otherwise.
I am curious if those who believe that individuals possess natural rights include the freedom of movement in that basket of natural rights.
Fox News pundit Judge Andrew Napolitano does:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I am curious if those who believe that individuals possess natural rights include the freedom of movement in that basket of natural rights.
Fox News pundit Judge Andrew Napolitano does:
[/quote]
Didn’t read the article, but the Judge is dead on. Freedom is paramount.
However, like I said, order is paramount to ensuring Freedom. This entire issue is government failure plain and simple. So, in typical government fashion, they turn their own failings into a partisan issue for votes and such…
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I am curious if those who believe that individuals possess natural rights include the freedom of movement in that basket of natural rights.
Fox News pundit Judge Andrew Napolitano does:
[/quote]
Didn’t read the article, but the Judge is dead on. Freedom is paramount.
However, like I said, order is paramount to ensuring Freedom. This entire issue is government failure plain and simple. So, in typical government fashion, they turn their own failings into a partisan issue for votes and such…[/quote]
I’ve been googling a bit and apparently the Catholic Church–at least the branch in Dallas–believes immigration is a natural right.
http://bishopkevinfarrell.org/2013/01/immigration-is-a-natural-right/