Point taken, Alwyn, but the crux of the issue for me is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration. There is a right (legal) way and a wrong (illegal) way. This country was established by, fought for and thrives because of immigrants. However if we are to be a nation of laws, let’s enforce them or change them, not ignore them.
By the way I did Fat Loss III Workout “B” today, and I am not feeling very charitable toward you or Lou…
[quote]deanec wrote:
Point taken, Alwyn, but the crux of the issue for me is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration. There is a right (legal) way and a wrong (illegal) way. This country was established by, fought for and thrives because of immigrants. However if we are to be a nation of laws, let’s enforce them or change them, not ignore them.
By the way I did Fat Loss III Workout “B” today, and I am not feeling very charitable toward you are Lou…[/quote]
All the cancer specialists I have worked with at ULCA are from outside the US. So stick that up your arse, anti-immigration groups. – Alwyn Cosgrove
Alwyn doesn’t get it. We give foreigners inferior foreign doctors.
We save the good real American doctors for real Americans. 
Can’t beat that logic…
[quote]deanec wrote:
Point taken, Alwyn, but the crux of the issue for me is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration. There is a right (legal) way and a wrong (illegal) way. This country was established by, fought for and thrives because of immigrants. However if we are to be a nation of laws, let’s enforce them or change them, not ignore them.[/quote]
Amen.
The same foreign scientists and doctors that Alwyn is raving about are the ones being royally screwed by this idiotic amnesty proposal. They got here legally, on account of their academic credentials – obtained after decades of studying and working hard – and if an amnesty is ever accepted they will see illegal immigrants pass in front of them in the queue to become citizens.
It’s not only unfair, it’s obscene, it’s immoral and goes against everything any decent country should stand for.
For once in my lifetime I’m siding against the Dems and McCain.
Bush is also of course on the wrong side of this issue, but these days not even the GOP defends him.
[quote]hspder wrote:
deanec wrote:
Point taken, Alwyn, but the crux of the issue for me is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration. There is a right (legal) way and a wrong (illegal) way. This country was established by, fought for and thrives because of immigrants. However if we are to be a nation of laws, let’s enforce them or change them, not ignore them.
Amen.
The same foreign scientists and doctors that Alwyn is raving about are the ones being royally screwed by this idiotic amnesty proposal. They got here legally, on account of their academic credentials – obtained after decades of studying and working hard – and if an amnesty is ever accepted they will see illegal immigrants pass in front of them in the queue to become citizens.
It’s not only unfair, it’s obscene, it’s immoral and goes against everything any decent country should stand for.
For once in my lifetime I’m siding against the Dems and McCain.
Bush is also of course on the wrong side of this issue, but these days not even the GOP defends him.
[/quote]
Well said. I call straw man on todays strong words.
Ha the funny thing is the debate is about illegal mexicans. I’m willing to bet that none of the illegals in this country are cancer specialists!
[quote]hspder wrote:
deanec wrote:
Point taken, Alwyn, but the crux of the issue for me is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration. There is a right (legal) way and a wrong (illegal) way. This country was established by, fought for and thrives because of immigrants. However if we are to be a nation of laws, let’s enforce them or change them, not ignore them.
Amen.
The same foreign scientists and doctors that Alwyn is raving about are the ones being royally screwed by this idiotic amnesty proposal. They got here legally, on account of their academic credentials – obtained after decades of studying and working hard – and if an amnesty is ever accepted they will see illegal immigrants pass in front of them in the queue to become citizens.
It’s not only unfair, it’s obscene, it’s immoral and goes against everything any decent country should stand for.
For once in my lifetime I’m siding against the Dems and McCain.
Bush is also of course on the wrong side of this issue, but these days not even the GOP defends him.
[/quote]
What about the people that walked across the border in the blazing sun and work hard cleaning your bathrooms and cutting your lawn?
Because they have not had the advantage of a good education they are not good enough to be Americans?
How many Chinese built the railroads? How many came here “legally”?
Should they have been deported?
Should we deport their descendants?
We must welcome the hard workers and deport the lowlifes.
Any program that does not grant amnesty to the hard working millions of “illegals” is doomed to failure no matter how much it may offend your sensibilities.
This migration is going to keep happening. We cannot stop it. All we can do is try to get a grip on who is coming in and try to get them in the system.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
What about the people that walked across the border in the blazing sun and work hard cleaning your bathrooms and cutting your lawn?[/quote]
I don’t have a lawn – and the bathrooms at Stanford are cleaned by a company owned by somebody I know, and he’s as adamant about hiring people that are LEGALLY in this country as any honest business owner should be.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Because they have not had the advantage of a good education they are not good enough to be Americans?[/quote]
Because they broke the law they are not good enough to be Americans. If somebody born here breaks the law, we send them to prison. But if somebody from another country, we give them a high-five, a smiling welcome and an American passport?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
How many Chinese built the railroads? How many came here “legally”?
Should they have been deported?
Should we deport their descendants?[/quote]
Are you really expecting me to support the obscenity that happened in this region with the Chinese immigrants?
Any comparison is absurd: the laws were different, and they were treated much worse than the current illegals are. And that is why I cannot give you a simple answer to that: part of me feels that they should have been sent back, but another part of me sees the stories about how they were treated and feels that they were punished enough.
Some things are worse than prison, and the treatment they had at the time was by far worse than any prison sentence or deportation that I believe should be prescribed to current illegals.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
We must welcome the hard workers and deport the lowlifes.[/quote]
… and what better way to distinguish them than by their education and law-abidance? Why do the exact opposite and benefit people that broke the law over people who did not?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
This migration is going to keep happening. We cannot stop it. All we can do is try to get a grip on who is coming in and try to get them in the system.[/quote]
Sure. And I’ve presented before many ideas on how to do just that. But how can an amnesty provide a good precedent?
On the contrary – it sets the exact wrong expectation that we do not want to set.
If you broke US law to get into the US, you need pay for it.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
What about them? Thats a hell of a hot walk. Give them a drink, and THEN ship them back. Seriously, can you not see the tremendous problem this border running is causing? The tremendous stress on our infrastructure? Public assistance? These poor people are the product of the Mexican gov., and the Mexican govnt needs to be responsible for them. This is something we must get a hold on now, or we will most definitely pay for it later; big time.
[/quote]
Of course I see the problem. We need to fix it. We need to stop the flow of illegals across the border. In order to do that we need to raise our quota for legal immigration.
We need better border security.
We need to deport every illegal alien that is not a productive member of our society.
We need to punish companies that hire illegals.
We need to grant amnest to productive people that want to be Americans. Those that want to be Mexican we need to send home.
We cannot kid ourselves that we can or will deport 11 million people. It will not happen. Pretending it will just distracts us from real debate and discussion.
Like Zap said, I think you need a comprehensive strategy to deal with the issue. Building a wall by itself won’t fix the fact that there are upwards of 20 million illegals already here. You also don’t want to push the entire group underground, at the same time, you don’t want to encourage it by giving general amnesty. I actually like most parts of Bush’s guest worker program, and I think more of him for risking so much politically to take on the issue in a thoughtful way, instead of throwing rhetoric at the problem.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
What about the people that walked across the border in the blazing sun and work hard cleaning your bathrooms and cutting your lawn?
I don’t have a lawn – and the bathrooms at Stanford are cleaned by a company owned by somebody I know, and he’s as adamant about hiring people that are LEGALLY in this country as any honest business owner should be.
[/quote]
That is what they ALL say. I didn’t know the SS numbers were fake.
They broke the law like you did this morning when you drove 65 in a 55 zone.
You cannot pretend these people are criminals simply because they came to the US. The US government has done almost nothing to address this issue for 20 years. We have practically given these people an engraved invitation.
You would really deport the productive people? How would you find them all?
Mass deportation of 11 million people would be one of the worst most inhumane things this country has ever done.
I want law abiding people in this country too. I would deport an illegal for shop lifting chewing gum.
I would not deport a hard working illegal alien that wants to be an American.
If the population of illegals was manageble I would not push for an amnesty. As it stands it is impossible to deal with the problem without an amnesty.
The problems we are having is not because of the last amnesty we granted.
The problems are due to incredibly weak border security and the US government turning a blind eye to employers hiring illegals.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
That is what they ALL say. I didn’t know the SS numbers were fake.[/quote]
That’s not how it works. If you actually read up on the laws, in order to hire somebody, the employer has to obtain either proof of citizenship in the form of a US passport, or proof of lawful residence in the form of a work visa AND a driver’s license or DHS/INS card.
A SS# is NOT proof enough, and any employer that does not collect the documents I mention above is breaking the law too.
Look it up.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
They broke the law like you did this morning when you drove 65 in a 55 zone.[/quote]
Actually, I defy you to break the speed limit in my neck of the woods. Most of the time the traffic is so bad that you’re lucky if you’re doing 45… 
Now seriously, coming into this country illegally is far from being in the same ballpark as breaking the speed limit. It requires a level of premeditation and effort, and causes a damage that are both far beyond going 10 miles over the speed limit.
I’d compare it to a DUI… And I’d be more than happy to deport anybody that has a DUI “incident”.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
You cannot pretend these people are criminals simply because they came to the US. The US government has done almost nothing to address this issue for 20 years. We have practically given these people an engraved invitation.[/quote]
Uh? So, if a law is stupid and/or nobody is enforcing it, it’s OK to break it? Do you REALLY believe that?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
You would really deport the productive people? How would you find them all?[/quote]
There is more than enough technology today to find them. It’s just a question of actually mining the IRS data, and enforcing employment requirements that already exist.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Mass deportation of 11 million people would be one of the worst most inhumane things this country has ever done. [/quote]
You really believe that sending back home people that knowingly entered this country illegally is “inhumane”? We’re not talking about giving them life sentences you know… We’re talking about sending them back where they came from! Why is that so bad? If Mexico is such a shithole, whose fault is that? Ours?
Remember that people that left their countries because they were being victims of persecution can easily obtain political asylum. If sending people back to poverty is THAT inhumane, how about fixing it (poverty) here first rather than keep importing other people’s problems?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I would not deport a hard working illegal alien that wants to be an American.[/quote]
So I return your question: how do you identify those? How do you prevent from giving citizenship to people that are here just to send all their money back home and leave as soon as they have enough? Remember that even if you eliminated dual citizenship (which, by the way, will never happen) they can easily go back home at any time and, with their Mexican birth certificates, regain Mexican citizenship and take all their money with them.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
If the population of illegals was manageble I would not push for an amnesty. As it stands it is impossible to deal with the problem without an amnesty.[/quote]
Two wrongs don’t make a right!
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The problems we are having is not because of the last amnesty we granted.
The problems are due to incredibly weak border security and the US government turning a blind eye to employers hiring illegals.[/quote]
True.
This country NEEDS immigrants and we should do their best to welcome them. We should make obtaining a Green Card an easier, faster and more transparent process. However, it is absurd to try to solve the problem by benefiting those who came here illegally AT THE EXPENSE of the ones that came here legally!
Look: if the amnesty proposal included ALL LEGAL immigrants too – everybody that was here legally would also be allowed an automatic path to citizenship (rather than being sent back home after their work visa expires, which happens after 6 or 7 years depending on the work visa) – I wouldn’t be 10% as upset. In fact, I’d even be willing to support such an amnesty, for the benefit of the legal immigrants, that are being sent home for no good reason. But one that puts illegals in an advantaged position in comparison to legal immigrants? NO WAY!
[quote]hspder wrote:
…
Look: if the amnesty proposal included ALL LEGAL immigrants too – everybody that was here legally would also be allowed an automatic path to citizenship (rather than being sent back home after their work visa expires, which happens after 6 or 7 years depending on the work visa) – I wouldn’t be 10% as upset. In fact, I’d even be willing to support such an amnesty, for the benefit of the legal immigrants, that are being sent home for no good reason. But one that puts illegals in an advantaged position in comparison to legal immigrants? NO WAY!
[/quote]
This is the only thing I agree with.
I support LEGAL immigration, 100%. I want the companies that hire illegals to be shut down and the illegals denied services and bussed out, period. I have no wiggle room on this one. Get the fuck out. I am an immigrant and a fucking citizen. If my family could do it, with out a penny to thier name, so can the other immigrants. GO HOME!
Go back to mexico, or wherever, arsehole. If illegals weren’t paid more than us native twats, we would be payed more.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
I support LEGAL immigration, 100%. I want the companies that hire illegals to be shut down and the illegals denied services and bussed out, period. I have no wiggle room on this one. Get the fuck out. I am an immigrant and a fucking citizen. If my family could do it, with out a penny to thier name, so can the other immigrants. GO HOME![/quote]
I feel the exact same way. We are a nation of immigrants and I too support LEGAL immigration 100%. If illigal immigrants put half as much energy into comeing here legaly as they do illigally, this wouldn’t be an issue. I just don’t see why, in the post 911 world, asking immigrants to come through the gate is such a horrible thing to ask.
I’m tired of hearing bullshit arguments about how I’m just not feeling their pain. Fuck their pain, I don’t give a shit. Go home and come back legally.
And before some bedwetting leftist accuses me of being a bigot, I have absolutely zero problems with LEGAL immigrants of any nationality. Come here and build a better life, whatever.
Just come through the fucking gate.