The Mexican States of America

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

As long as business can make money hand over fist, this problem will NEVER be solved.

There are too many people making money with an open border, so if you want to close it, you make it clear to businesses that it will cost them more to keep it open than to close it.

With increasing Latino populations, come higher taxes, and more Liberal policies. When business sees its too costly to do business in a place like California for example, they leave. And the downward spiral then begins.

If you people knew how bad hostile policies toward job creation have killed this state, you would fall over.

Union janitors making $70k, tax brackets being adjusted downward, Global Warming taxes, a 2-year minimum wait to open a fast food chain restaurant…

Cheap labor is not so cheap when you look at the costs associated with illegal immigration, it’s much more costly to deal with them once they have arrived.

Severiano - no offense, but no other immigrant populations struggle the way your people do. Asians, Europeans, and middle easterners seem to do just fine adjusting and thriving here. We spend more on your people with the smallest return on investment. I am tired of paying for your people because they don’t habla.

82

So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?

Oh and Chushins point about Mexico’s immigration laws is spot on…it is the ultimate in Hypocrisy.

83

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?[/quote]

Is this a common occurrence that you know of? Most just work under the table as far as I know, no identity theft required.

[quote]
Oh and Chushins point about Mexico’s immigration laws is spot on…it is the ultimate in Hypocrisy. [/quote]

I agree.

84

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?

[/quote]

One difference is that–assuming they aren’t actually using the identity to steal credit, goods, or services–they would be paying into the “victims” SS account for the purpose of determining benefits, and wouldn’t receive any SS benefits in return. So they aren’t stealing the victim’s truck and fucking them over, they are actually making an anonymous donation to their retirement account.

85

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?

[/quote]

One difference is that–assuming they aren’t actually using the identity to steal credit, goods, or services–they would be paying into the “victims” SS account for the purpose of determining benefits, and wouldn’t receive any SS benefits in return. So they aren’t stealing the victim’s truck and fucking them over, they are actually making an anonymous donation to their retirement account. [/quote]

They broke up a ring of mexican gangbangers in Salt Lake City that had been selling other peoples identities so that illegals could get jobs.

I’m sure all of them took great care to keep their stolen identities credit scores high.

And to take it a step further…if you think this is secretly a good thing for the person who got ripped off…maybe you should sell your identity to an illegal and fortify your SS account.

86

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?

[/quote]

One difference is that–assuming they aren’t actually using the identity to steal credit, goods, or services–they would be paying into the “victims” SS account for the purpose of determining benefits, and wouldn’t receive any SS benefits in return. So they aren’t stealing the victim’s truck and fucking them over, they are actually making an anonymous donation to their retirement account. [/quote]

They broke up a ring of mexican gangbangers in Salt Lake City that had been selling other peoples identities so that illegals could get jobs.

I’m sure all of them took great care to keep their stolen identities credit scores high.

And to take it a step further…if you think this is secretly a good thing for the person who got ripped off…maybe you should sell your identity to an illegal and fortify your SS account.[/quote]

I don’t disagree that identity theft is a problem, especially in the specific example you just gave. My response was to your generic hypothetical and potential ways to distinguish the two examples.

The bigger question I am struggling with is the justification to deny individuals the basic freedom to move and enter into contracts based solely on their place of birth. The libertarian side of me has a real problem with this. The pragmatist in me is sympathetic to Chushin’s concern that simply opening the borders would cause bad things to happen, and Beans’ concern about logistics, at least in the short run, but this isn’t really a great answer when dealing with any particular individual’s basic human rights/natural rights. Also, the biggest reason people point to for a “bad things” prediction is having to provide benefits to immigrants; but that’s really a problem with living in a welfare state, and not an answer to the question of an individual’s basic human rights/natural rights and whether freedom to move is one of their basic rights.

Do you believe in natural rights? If so, do you disagree that freedom of movement is one of them?

87

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?

[/quote]

One difference is that–assuming they aren’t actually using the identity to steal credit, goods, or services–they would be paying into the “victims” SS account for the purpose of determining benefits, and wouldn’t receive any SS benefits in return. So they aren’t stealing the victim’s truck and fucking them over, they are actually making an anonymous donation to their retirement account. [/quote]

They broke up a ring of mexican gangbangers in Salt Lake City that had been selling other peoples identities so that illegals could get jobs.

I’m sure all of them took great care to keep their stolen identities credit scores high.

And to take it a step further…if you think this is secretly a good thing for the person who got ripped off…maybe you should sell your identity to an illegal and fortify your SS account.[/quote]

I don’t disagree that identity theft is a problem, especially in the specific example you just gave. My response was to your generic hypothetical and potential ways to distinguish the two examples.

The bigger question I am struggling with is the justification to deny individuals the basic freedom to move and enter into contracts based solely on their place of birth. The libertarian side of me has a real problem with this. The pragmatist in me is sympathetic to Chushin’s concern that simply opening the borders would cause bad things to happen, and Beans’ concern about logistics, at least in the short run, but this isn’t really a great answer when dealing with any particular individual’s basic human rights/natural rights. Also, the biggest reason people point to for a “bad things” prediction is having to provide benefits to immigrants; but that’s really a problem with living in a welfare state, and not an answer to the question of an individual’s basic human rights/natural rights and whether freedom to move is one of their basic rights.

Do you believe in natural rights? If so, do you disagree that freedom of movement is one of them?

[/quote]

What I believe is that there is a finite amount of resources in this country. We are broke.

With waves of illegal immigrants putting more pressure on already overtaxed local/state/federal programs, hospitals and schools…they fail, our country fails.

88

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
As long as business can make money hand over fist, this problem will NEVER be solved.

There are too many people making money with an open border, so if you want to close it, you make it clear to businesses that it will cost them more to keep it open than to close it.

With increasing Latino populations, come higher taxes, and more Liberal policies. When business sees its too costly to do business in a place like California for example, they leave. And the downward spiral then begins.

If you people knew how bad hostile policies toward job creation have killed this state, you would fall over.

Union janitors making $70k, tax brackets being adjusted downward, Global Warming taxes, a 2-year minimum wait to open a fast food chain restaurant…

Cheap labor is not so cheap when you look at the costs associated with illegal immigration, it’s much more costly to deal with them once they have arrived.

Severiano - no offense, but no other immigrant populations struggle the way your people do. Asians, Europeans, and middle easterners seem to do just fine adjusting and thriving here. We spend more on your people with the smallest return on investment. I am tired of paying for your people because they don’t habla. [/quote]

That is because Mexicans who make a good living have no desire to come here. The ones who cross the border see it as a way to survive and support their families. They are poor and have little to know education. Indians and Asians do not have that choice, though I have known of some crossing the Mexico/US border. The ones who get here are already highly educated or get here on Visas to study. The ones who feel they need to cross illegally to survive are the ones who have no chance in hell to get the visa.

89

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?

[/quote]

One difference is that–assuming they aren’t actually using the identity to steal credit, goods, or services–they would be paying into the “victims” SS account for the purpose of determining benefits, and wouldn’t receive any SS benefits in return. So they aren’t stealing the victim’s truck and fucking them over, they are actually making an anonymous donation to their retirement account. [/quote]

They broke up a ring of mexican gangbangers in Salt Lake City that had been selling other peoples identities so that illegals could get jobs.

I’m sure all of them took great care to keep their stolen identities credit scores high.

And to take it a step further…if you think this is secretly a good thing for the person who got ripped off…maybe you should sell your identity to an illegal and fortify your SS account.[/quote]

I don’t disagree that identity theft is a problem, especially in the specific example you just gave. My response was to your generic hypothetical and potential ways to distinguish the two examples.

The bigger question I am struggling with is the justification to deny individuals the basic freedom to move and enter into contracts based solely on their place of birth. The libertarian side of me has a real problem with this. The pragmatist in me is sympathetic to Chushin’s concern that simply opening the borders would cause bad things to happen, and Beans’ concern about logistics, at least in the short run, but this isn’t really a great answer when dealing with any particular individual’s basic human rights/natural rights. Also, the biggest reason people point to for a “bad things” prediction is having to provide benefits to immigrants; but that’s really a problem with living in a welfare state, and not an answer to the question of an individual’s basic human rights/natural rights and whether freedom to move is one of their basic rights.

Do you believe in natural rights? If so, do you disagree that freedom of movement is one of them?

[/quote]

What I believe is that there is a finite amount of resources in this country. We are broke.

With waves of illegal immigrants putting more pressure on already overtaxed local/state/federal programs, hospitals and schools…they fail, our country fails.

[/quote]

I confess I am sympathetic to your sentiment. But I am still pretty conflicted on this one and its hard for me to simply shrug off the issue simply because its not my fundamental right that’s being infringed without it leaving a bad taste in my libertarian-leaning mouth.

90

I say we pass a law allowing us to hunt them for sport. It could be the next big reality television show.

91

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Severiano - no offense, but no other immigrant populations struggle the way your people do. Asians, Europeans, and middle easterners seem to do just fine adjusting and thriving here. We spend more on your people with the smallest return on investment. I am tired of paying for your people because they don’t habla.

[/quote]

I dunno, I’ve run into a lot of Hmongs and Punjabis who aren’t necessarily assimilating, and a lot of effort has been made to accommodate their illiteracy in English as well. It’s not just a case of accommodating only those whose only language is Spanish.

In the end, it’s a numbers game. If the Vietnamese or Somali illegal immigrants were to magically switch places numerically with the Hispanic illegal immigrants, people would be making the same objections, for the same reasons. Just the ethnicities would be different.

For what it’s worth, I was for many years an “immigrant” in Japan. I managed to speak Japanese fairly well, but the Anglophone foreign community was (and is) so well established that had I chosen never to learn a word of Japanese, I probably still could have made a pretty decent living. A lot of foreigners get by quite well speaking nothing but Korean, Mandarin, Tagalog, Farsi or English. And, by the way, a great many of those are, for all intents and purposes, “undocumented workers”.

By the same token, if I were a Hispanic immigrant encountering the well-established Spanish-speaking culture in the largest city of the West Coast, whose original name is El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reina de Los Angeles, I might not feel much of an incentive to learn the English language, either.

92

Not a solution.
The producers of the television shows would start to import millions of them to respond to the increasing demand.

Maybe you should think about militarizing the border between California and … the other american states.
Let the Mexicans have it and let them pay the debt.

If this is really such a gangrene, then amputation may be the adequate treatment.

93

[quote]kamui wrote:

Not a solution.
The producers of the television shows would start to import millions of them to respond to the increasing demand.

Maybe you should think about militarizing the border between California and … the other american states.
Let the Mexicans have it and let them pay the debt.

If this is really such a gangrene, then amputation may be the adequate treatment. [/quote]

I’m wondering when the Canadians will start building their own militarized border fence to keep out the unruly aliens from the south, who now are only smuggling in cigarettes and firearms, but who will undoubtedly migrate in droves seeking better opportunities as the economic and political situation in their native land continues to deteriorate.

:slight_smile:

94

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Severiano - no offense, but no other immigrant populations struggle the way your people do. Asians, Europeans, and middle easterners seem to do just fine adjusting and thriving here. We spend more on your people with the smallest return on investment. I am tired of paying for your people because they don’t habla.

[/quote]

I dunno, I’ve run into a lot of Hmongs and Punjabis who aren’t necessarily assimilating, and a lot of effort has been made to accommodate their illiteracy in English as well. It’s not just a case of accommodating only those whose only language is Spanish.

In the end, it’s a numbers game. If the Vietnamese or Somali illegal immigrants were to magically switch places numerically with the Hispanic illegal immigrants, people would be making the same objections, for the same reasons. Just the ethnicities would be different.

For what it’s worth, I was for many years an “immigrant” in Japan. I managed to speak Japanese fairly well, but the Anglophone foreign community was (and is) so well established that had I chosen never to learn a word of Japanese, I probably still could have made a pretty decent living. A lot of foreigners get by quite well speaking nothing but Korean, Mandarin, Tagalog, Farsi or English. And, by the way, a great many of those are, for all intents and purposes, “undocumented workers”.

By the same token, if I were a Hispanic immigrant encountering the well-established Spanish-speaking culture in the largest city of the West Coast, whose original name is El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reina de Los Angeles, I might not feel much of an incentive to learn the English language, either. [/quote]

I brought that up a while back when he complained about a a woman who had a strong accent and struggled with english running for major. I posted videos of Asian council members in Monterey Park who could hardly speak english. Pointed out that there are many Asian communities in Southern CA, where Japanese, Korean, or Chinese is the dominant language, his response:

“Yeah but, how many of them are there?”.

All my work for nothing.

97

[quote]kamui wrote:

Not a solution.
The producers of the television shows would start to import millions of them to respond to the increasing demand.

Maybe you should think about militarizing the border between California and … the other american states.
Let the Mexicans have it and let them pay the debt.

If this is really such a gangrene, then amputation may be the adequate treatment. [/quote]

I say you take out the liberals who sympathize and the the conservatives that hire them and that would solve the majority of your countries problems.

98

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So if I own a lawn care company and my truck dies, I cannot make money to feed my family. I steal YOUR truck so I can keep working.

Hey, just trying to feed my family. Even though it FUCKS you over, it’s ok right?

What is the difference with an illegal stealing somebody’s identity to get a job?

[/quote]

One difference is that–assuming they aren’t actually using the identity to steal credit, goods, or services–they would be paying into the “victims” SS account for the purpose of determining benefits, and wouldn’t receive any SS benefits in return. So they aren’t stealing the victim’s truck and fucking them over, they are actually making an anonymous donation to their retirement account. [/quote]

They broke up a ring of mexican gangbangers in Salt Lake City that had been selling other peoples identities so that illegals could get jobs.

I’m sure all of them took great care to keep their stolen identities credit scores high.

And to take it a step further…if you think this is secretly a good thing for the person who got ripped off…maybe you should sell your identity to an illegal and fortify your SS account.[/quote]

I don’t disagree that identity theft is a problem, especially in the specific example you just gave. My response was to your generic hypothetical and potential ways to distinguish the two examples.

The bigger question I am struggling with is the justification to deny individuals the basic freedom to move and enter into contracts based solely on their place of birth. The libertarian side of me has a real problem with this. The pragmatist in me is sympathetic to Chushin’s concern that simply opening the borders would cause bad things to happen, and Beans’ concern about logistics, at least in the short run, but this isn’t really a great answer when dealing with any particular individual’s basic human rights/natural rights. Also, the biggest reason people point to for a “bad things” prediction is having to provide benefits to immigrants; but that’s really a problem with living in a welfare state, and not an answer to the question of an individual’s basic human rights/natural rights and whether freedom to move is one of their basic rights.

Do you believe in natural rights? If so, do you disagree that freedom of movement is one of them?

[/quote]

What I believe is that there is a finite amount of resources in this country. We are broke.

With waves of illegal immigrants putting more pressure on already overtaxed local/state/federal programs, hospitals and schools…they fail, our country fails.

[/quote]

I confess I am sympathetic to your sentiment. But I am still pretty conflicted on this one and its hard for me to simply shrug off the issue simply because its not my fundamental right that’s being infringed without it leaving a bad taste in my libertarian-leaning mouth. [/quote]

I honestly don’t mean this to be as smart ass ( nor as simple-minded) as it may sound, but does your inability to go walking around your neighbor’s yard anytime you want leave that same bad taste?

Is private ownership of land also an issue for you?[/quote]

No, private property isn’t an issue with me and I generally favor strong private property rights.

Do you think the Government has a right to tell me I can’t invite my cousin to come live with me on my property that I own solely because she was born in another country? I know it has the power to tell me I can’t do this, but does it really have the right?

99

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Because, just like with the US, porous borders and illegal immigrants cause so many serious societal problems in Japan?

C’mon Varq.

Japan only proves the wisdom of controlled immigration.
[/quote]

The only differences are those of scale. I don’t know how it is in Chugoku, but in Kanto illegal immigration actually is a moderately serious problem. Or at least it was when I was there. Lots and lots of Chinese boat people entering the country under cover of darkness on the shores of the Boso and Izu peninsulas, lots and lots of Filipinos and Iranians “forgetting” to leave once their visas expired, and swelling the ranks of the various mizu shobai workforce, and of course lots and lots of Koreans whose legal status is somewhat unclear, swelling the ranks of organized crime in Chiba and Tokyo. I assume it’s the same in Kyoto and Osaka.

Japan only proves that even if you tightly control your borders, you can’t keep people out who really, really want to get in, and for whom the benefits of breaking the law outweigh the risks.