Thanks for reminding me why I stopped paying attention to this thread.
You’re welcome
That will only be the beginning of some new bullshit.
Is there a number that you would find more tolerable?
So… The other side is jihadism. The kind of people who would happily pull off 100 9/11’s and decapitate/forcibly convert everyone into Islam where YOU will be praying five times per day minimum
But aside from that… Which deep state actors? Give me a name.
Civillians get bombed because Hamas holds them at gunpoint “if you dare heed the IDF’s call to evacuate we kill you anyway”
They’ve actually been somewhat open about this practice, going as far as to call their civillians “martyrs for the cause”. On life television a spokesperson for Hamas said they were looking to kill any civillian coming home who had evacuated heeding warning from the IDF.
Using human shields… That’s on Hamas. Don’t want civillians to die? Behave like any other decent army and don combatant clothing, stop hiding in or under civilian infrastructure and stop opening fire from within densely crowded civillians areas.
You want America uninvolved but America’s relationship with Israel is highly strategic and transactional. Without Israel America has about a dozen threats pointed it’s way that Israel largely keeps in line.
So America not being involved with Israel is an America deeply involved with Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Gaza/West Bank etc. America is next up on the chopping block after Israel… Perhaps it’s actually more advantageous for America to find Israel and allow Israel to target and take care of threats to America’s peace and prosperity
Because no… It wouldn’t be a piece of cake for America to tackle all relevant threats with everything else currently going on… For one America isn’t having the easiest time finding new recruits, and sending tons of troops off into combat zones might not bode well with many
The slogan “Death to America” was actually partially popularised through Hezbollah in the early 2000s
2 Likes
It’s an ignorant position based on false equivalency. Make fun of Judaism or Christianity and you won’t lose your head. There is a difference.
Absolutely shocking
Wow I love Al-Qaeda now!
I am sorry you had to deal with that. I am sorry that antisemitism is alive and well. And the lengths to which it is perpetuated and celebrated makes me sick to my stomach.
Basically you are a vulnerable lost individual that was fed a weird christian zionist doctrine
The suffering is in Gaza but it’s all about your fake christianity which says Israel has to be restored for you to be saved
No I don’t care about Hamas, you are as mentally ill as them but at least they are defending their land
They are?
Give me a quote of a Oalestine existing before Israel’s existence thst wasn’t owned by the British
The British mandate of Palestine was not Palestone
The country Palestine as we know today was formally declared into existence in the 1980s
Coukd have been in 1948 but Palestine said no, previously owned by the British, the Ottoman Empire before that etc and I can keep going back wss not owned by “Palestinians” and Israeli ancestry goes back well before Muslims ever stepped foot into that territory
Arabs yes… as many Arabs amd Jews share very, very similar bloodlines
But Judaism existed in that land before Islam did… and Israel has at some point in time been owned bt SO many different groups… includinf tne Roman’s
As a matter of fact Gaza wss Israeli territory pre 2005
Gaza didn’t have a wall over it built by Israek AND Egypt until Gaza started lobbing thousands of rockets and perpetuating mass suicide bombings and shootings into foreign territory
Hamas dug its own grave, with the amount of funding Hamas has gotten legitimately and illigimately they could have been another UAE… they could have made their citizens filthy rich but chose to dig tunnels to smuggle in rockets and explosives instead
1 Like
So… you’re exactly proving my point witj what is wrong in the Muslim world… extreme hatred and antisemitism… it wasn’t “their land” and had Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria won the war initially the land would have been divvied up and between predominantly Egypt and Jordan… Then in the 90s there was hope as a similar plan had been drafted up this time giving even more land up and kicking all of the Jews of Gaza circa 2005…
before Isrsel to given to the Jews (keep in mind the offer was a 50/50 solids) the country was owned by the British and was called the “british mandate of Palestine” but that term had nothing to do with the Palestine we know today… it wasn’t a country . Just about EVERY country was founded by conquest (many times extremely brutal conquest with entire populations damn near decimated!)
You can’t just kick everyone out who has nowhere to go because the UN voted to allow the UK to provide Israel to Jews as they had nowhere to go… and “never again” exists for a reason
If Israel put it’s guard down it wouldn’t be a dynamic of jews living under Dhimmi status… there would be torture, extreme cruelty and likely a genocide on a larger scale (in numbers) than the Holocaust as Hamas has clearly outlined that intention within their charter… not even “convert” just “jewish? dead…”
Jews stepped foot in Isrsel and have lived there before Palestinian became coined as a nationality despite it never actually having been formally recognized by the UN to my knoweldge. The argument about ancestry is a moot point, are you giving America back to the natie Americans and Australia back to the aboriginals? Notwithstanding it’s not even TRUE that arabs are the OG inhabitants… It was the Jews… Judaism predates christianity and Islam… and in the Torah AND bible (and we have found historical artifacts) showcase jews being in Israel well before Arabs ever stepped foot in the land
so by your knowledge can we kick out the muslim population? Because the Jews lived there first therefore it’s mine right?
Calling me inbred… So ironic considering cousin marrage was rampant in Islam historically and this persists today (as does child marriage, Aisha was six when the prophet used him. In Pakistan up to FIFTY PERCENT of marriages are between family members, there are several muslim countries I can list out where the rate of marrrying family members is 50-60%… care to prove jews still do this often? We did it in the past as we were persecuted and needed to reproduce somehow… Are you aware of this?
You don’t not respond to my criticism in a civil manner, you retort to insults amd attacks on my character… do you not have a means to prove your claim that Palestinians had their own country before the creation of Israel. If you can’t engage and actually disprove what I have to say (whereas I can disprove your claims about Palestine in less than five minutes) and have to result to calling me an inbred which has nothing to do with anything… and it’s unbelievable you’d use that example given so many arab countries heavily encourage and promote endogamy…
If we accept the narrative of Jews are white colonialist genocidal tyrants that only came into Israel in 1948 sure… But jews, arabs and Christians have been living in Israel for a very, very long time… including pre 1948, and even back then there was tension between the arabs and muslims that would occasionally boil over…
Do you really think Gaza is going back to a Hamas run USA? Muslim culture back in the daughter
Would you like me to link literature proving what I have to say? Jews who lived in the British mandate of Palestine were of dhimmi status had their homes ruined from war… others were ordered to evacuate by he IDF and by Arab armies (both sides…) It was like six countries vs one country full of freshly scarred holocaust survivor’s and your side lost… then they tried again in the early 70s with an even more aggressive extremely cowardly suprise attack and lost again…
Finally, even if we did “steal” the land (which was never formally signed over to Arabs as the British owned the land)… The jews living in Israeli territories near the border to Jordan, jews living in the west bank or west jerusalem as well as jews living in Israeli territory in general as they also had their homes knocked down and some even missed out on generational wealth as the land that had gone up in value was no longer their own.
Why should Israel be held to some absolutely ridiculous double standard… It’s just “lets complain about Israel” while overlooking what Assad was doing to civillians in Syria, the Ayahtollas influcting extreme cruelty
There are FIFTY SEVEN muslim majority countries… but only one Jewish country, and a tiny one at that… but apparently that’s just too much! It needs to be destroyed… After trying and failing countless times to either get rid of or scare the Israelis out and failing the PLO finally said “by the way we are a country now” in 1988 but much of Europe, the USA, the UK etc still don’t actually recognize Palestine as a legitimate country
Palestine was never an independent country… and has Hamas not commited a terrorist attack on the scale of 11 9/11s with stories of women being sexually assaulted with knives, having their breasts cut off, dismemberment etc… And this was encouraged, you can watch videos from Hamas members who were caught during Oct 7th and some outline the insanely disturbing instructions they were given, being told they’d be paid handsomely for inflicting cruelty and taking hostages…
Hamas didn’t have to do this, they didn’t have to take hostage… and had they been willing to take the billions in funding they recieve every year and put it into developing a country, not keeping citizens poor and building probably like fifty miles worth of underground tunnels etc.)
But let me guess, Hamas aren’t terrorists right? IT’s the IDF that are the terrorists despite no one labelling them as such and it’s Hamas who are noble resistance fighters…
1 Like
So, your argument is that there was not a area called Palestine so therefore fuck them? They were known as “Palestinian Arabs” before 1948, and it was them with promised Arab independence that helped Britain fight the Ottomans.
Yeah, 55% of the land with 33% of the population. From illegal immigration against British policy.
Thanks to Jewish terrorist groups that organized them. They also killed civilians, British soldiers and officials. Then became IDF.
They were nowhere near a majority and barely a minority for 2000 years.
Which Netanyahu and intelligence most likely knew about but, wanted to use to maintain his power.
"Netanyahu aimed to weaken the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, thereby undermining prospects for a two-state solution and bolstering his political standing among right-wing constituents. This strategy allegedly involved facilitating financial transfers to Hamas and permitting work permits for Gazans, actions that some believe inadvertently strengthened Hamas’s capabilities.
Furthermore, investigations have revealed that individuals within Netanyahu’s circle allegedly leaked state secrets regarding the goals of the Israel-Hamas war. These leaks are purported to have been part of efforts to block ceasefire agreements, potentially allowing Netanyahu to avoid facing trial, early elections, and accountability for security lapses during the October 7, 2023, attacks"
Israel is a propaganda machine that is what they have focused on for decades. By their own words “Creating/controlling the narrative”.
Thanks to the Billions we give them that they then use to Lobby/Bribe U.S. politicians through AIPAC.
Also, cannot forget about the blackmail through Epstein/Mossad.
Did I say “fuck them?”
So I THINK I know a decent amount about this and I’m happy to debate this with you. Mind you I’m not so far on the extreme Israel scale that I can’t see between the lines… It’s just I look at the situation collectively and think “you can’t get rid of an entire country because something happened in 1948 that Palestinians disagree with”
During the late Ottoman period before the British mandate era, Jews, Arabs and Christians were referred to as “Palestinians” which referred to inhabitants of the British territory… not a unique ethnicity owned by Arabs. “Palestinian” today is used exclusively to refer to Arabs (and usually MUSLIMS) living in Gaza or the west bank
There were Jews that lived in Hebron openly, but were expelled during anti-Jewish riots before the creation of Israel under the British mandate… With that being said, there are still close to a thousand jews living in Hebron to my knowledge and they require military protection to do so.
After 1948 Palestinian became associated with the Arab population as well as those who remained stateless post war and jews of the newly founded “jewish state” largely stopped identifying as Palestinian and referred to themselves as Israeli’s
Jews still in the west bank right after the creation of Israel (say 1949 etc) would have identified as Jordanian, as jews or depending on specific circumstances under the concept of a unified Palestinian identity that was still developing at the time.
If Israel had lost the war in 1948, the outcome wouldn’t have been the creation of a “Palestine”…
I have a few ways to back this up. During the 1948 war Jordan had already occupied and later annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem during the 1948 war… Had Israel been defeated Joran would have retained control of these territories and possibly expanded it’s influence in parts of previously mandate territory… Egypt already had control over the Gaza strip at the time the war ended and likely would have kept it under Egyptian rule as opposed to creating a Palestine… I can go on
The result is the remaining territory would have been divided amongst arab countries as opposed to creating the most tiny, miniscule Palestine you could imagine
Arab countries didn’t show a significant interest in creating a Palestinian state in 1948, and went as far as to reject the premise in 1948 and were focused instead on annexing the land into their own territories
Palestinians as a national arab identity hadn’t fully coalesced into a political movement as it did later… The term “Palestinian arabs” was considered to be a part of the broader Arab world, and were considered as refugees over the basis for a separate state
The Palestinian Arab population would have likely CONTINUED living under the rule of autocratic Arab states without any independent Palestinian governance just as they had in the past… The idea of a Palestinian state en masse particularly began to gain political traction after the six day war in 1967
Now there were times when the British informally promised this land…There was also a time in 1917 when Britain supported the establishment of a national home for Jews in 1917 (Belfour declaration). In 1915 the British high commisioner in Egypt promised a leader of Mecca British support for an independent arab state in response to an arab revolt against the Ottoman empire… The letters however were vague in that they never formally signed any land over, and you can find MANY historical accounts of politicians or members of governments being dishonest/manipulating their way into and out of conflicts… literally thousands… every year… That and the Henry McMahon did not have the authority to make this promise. He was not empowered to offer territorial guarantees unliterally, and this promise to the arabs was part of an attempt to gain Arab support against the Ottoman Empire… That and McMahons exact promise to the SPECIFIC territories (meaning Palestine) is up for debate.
By 1916 the British had already secretly negotated to divide Ottoman territories, and under this agreement Palestine was designated for international administration and would have given Palestine and Southern Israel to British for permanent control… already contradicting the promise made to the arabs one year prior. Look up the Sykes-Picot agreement.
If it was never formally signed over (Palestine) then it was never formally signed over… Israel on the other hand was formally signed over, the UN at the time (including the soviet union) signed Israel over to the jews likely with the expectation Israel would become a socialist or pro soviet state (the soviet union played an unexpectedly large role in the UN voting over Israel to the Jews)
This isn’t true… It was closer to 45% of the land, with 55% going to the Jews if it had worked out as was written down. Roughly 80% of the Palestinain Arab population lived in the 45% of the land designated for the arab state under the UN partition plan (1948)
After the 1948 Arab Israeli war the territorial situation changed significantly and the Arabs kind now live in a smaller are of land than they’d have otherwise had however they do have more land now than they had prior to 1948, although I will admit there are a LOT of settlements that probably shouldn’t be there… it’s a subject of debate, with countries like the USA calling the settlements concerning but not necessarily illegal, and Israel maintains the idea that the settlements and expansions of said settlements are concerning… Much of the international community believes the settlements are illegal/a violation of international law and I’m more on this side… I understand they exist due to the very significant security threat that exists however
And I don’t think this can work out with the two states happily getting along, I believe these two populations are part of incompatible cultures and/or incompatible leadership
Between 11 and 37%% of the population between Ottoman empire and 1947, with more coming in as the Ottoman empire became the mandate as under the mandate jews were not Dhimmi and didn’t have to pay a jiyza and were not second class citizens
Inaccurate, this is a tiny portion of the truth. The IDF was largely composed of the Haganah, a paramilitary organisation… The Haganah were not designated as a terrorist organisation and were not nearly as radical as the Irgun or the Lehi paramillitary organisations. Irgun and Lehi were considered terrorist organisations, and Irgun was by far the most radical group
Lehi went as far as to refer to their own members as terrorists and Irgun was also a terrorist organisation as I’ve mentioned. Irgan for instance was responsible for the bombing of King David Hotel in 1946 which is widely used as a means to portray all zionists as terrorists
The CORE of the IDF came from the Haganah, a tiny fraction of the IDF in total came from Irgun and Legi… which I agree wasn’t right, members should have been deradicalized and most of them probably should have been imprisoned… but at the same time Israel was desperate as the onset of the 1948 war was quite sudden
How many times have we seen legitimate political entities/militaries have highly questionable origins? As I can provide many examples
And yes, they committed terrorist attacks against civilians, the British etc
In the end the Irgun had around ten thousand members at it’s peak, and Lehi had closer to 2000 members
The Haganah in 1948 had roughly 30,000 members, Irgun had around 2000 and Lehi had 2000-3000… These terrorist organisations disbanded and were merged into the IDF… But don’t make up a majority of the IDF and estimates touted in history have specified between 10-20% of the newly formed IDF were likely part of these terrorist groups…
Similarly I can think of many political parties that were fascist/revolutionary/socialist and moderated either by force or by themselves over time… But that doesn’t excuse that many who orchestrated acts of terrorism likely went unpunished… as life isn’t fair and this kind of shit always happens
People like to think you do the wrong thing, you get punished and vice versa but this isn’t necessarily the case… depending on the context and timing people absolutely get away with the worst of the worst
General Butt Naked or Joshua Blayhi is an Evangelican Libyan preacher and former warlord still alive today who is guilty of countless crimes against humanity… The details are so disturbing they aren’t worth writing down but he was the worst of the worst, absolutely got away with it and is now an evangelical preacher
I adknowledge atrocities like king david bombings (which warnings were given for) and Deir Yassin Masscare (by far the worst example, village massacre) as well as the nature of Lehi and Irgun were awful… Lehi was so radical they tried to ally with Nazi Germany to fight the British… This failed for obvious reasons. These groups were disbanded and became legitimate entities… I can’t see the same happening for Hamas… ever…
Maybe Hamas does become a legitimate political organisation like Irgun eventually who played a part of the formation of Likud (but once again only a small role) but it’s EXCEEDINGLY unlikely given it’s designation as a terrorist organisation internationally… as was Irgun and Lehi but they disbanded as the time the IDF was created and were long gone before they moved on to do anything legitimate
I’ll also say Irgun and Lehi primarily targeted British officials and civillians were a secondary byproduct/unintentional casualty whereas Israeli civillians are the primary target of Hamas and genocide/killing every single jew is a core part of their charter…
" The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
Hamas also uses the protocols of the elders of zion etc to justify their views (quite a few similarities with nazi ideology here)
Irgun and Lehi dissolved and/or members were granted amnesty if they dropped extremist ideology… this gamble (right or wrong) worked… I hate the comparisons of the IDF/Israel to Hamas as I think there is such a clear right and wrong… Lehi and Irgun were in the wrong but Hamas is worse… We can even go by the metric of which group have actually killed more civilians which is a dumb metric to go by to begin with as civilians always die during war and more civillian deaths doesn’t actually =/= whether something is right or wrong… If I said more German than british civillians died during WWII are the Nazis the less malevolent force… Hamas has still killed more civillians. The nazis often put civilians deliberately into the crossfire of war or used them as human shields. I use the Nazis in reference as they’re the only legitimate political entity that weren’t/aren’t terrorists that I can think of that use similar tactics to Hamas with regards to purposefully using civilians as a strategic tool to avoid being attacked (I believe documents found on Sinwars personal laptop confirmed this)
This isn’t an example of me using the Nazis because the Nazis (present almost one hundred years ago and not remotely relevant to today) are some big boogeymen… they’re just highly relevant here, both in terms of ideology and tactics used… In the Warsaw uprising (1944) civilians were forced to march in front of soldiers in hopes of repelling attacks. In the battle for Berlin Nazis operated behind civilians to maximise casualties if firefights were to break out.
As the fight against the Nazis was to eliminate the Nazis completely, and the nazis used civilians as shields fairly often the death toll was much higher for German civilians… .This doesn’t make the nazis the good guys
Which group has genocide explicitly referenced in it’s charter etc… Even if you want to compare by the metric of the one village massacre perpetuated by Irgun which was absolutely devastating and killed between 100-200 civillians the level of brutality despite being extreme is not even close to some of the shit Hamas did on Oct 7th, and they did so repeatedly… and have done so many times over the course of decades with no sign of changing.
Not that it matters but It has been debated as to how it occurred but it appears to have been a targeted massacre perpetuated entirely by members of irgun and lehi, it’s also beleived the Haganah was aware of this and did not intervene as the atrocity was aimed at achieving strategic military targets however there is no definitive evidence as to whether the Haganah approved of this attack and some eyewitness testimonies suggest members of the Haganah may have wanted to intervene
It wasn’t as if this massacre went without condemnation… and it led to a massively widening rift between Lehi, Urgun and the Haganah
After the Haganah became aware of how egregious the attack was there was widespread condemnation, and an attempt to portray Irgun and Lehi as radical terrorists outside of the legitimate scope of the IDF was made.
It should be noted before the Arab Israeli war there was a civil war in the british mandate as I’m sure you know from 1947-1948 that was already ongoing between Muslim-Arabs, Jews and the British but mostly between Jews and Arabs. The civil war began almost immediately after the UN resolution to separate Israel and Palestine was passed, the 1948 Arab Israeli war (when other arab countries largely got involved) started the second after Israel declared independence in accordance to the UN resolution and as such Haganah, Irgun and Lehi merged after they’d already been fighting out of necessity… not because they’d gotten along as the Haganah at this point had made efforts to get rid of them the month prior to the war starting as the massacre occured right at the end of the 1947-1948 civil war and right before the start of the 1948-1949 arab israeli war. Had this war not started the Haganah would have likely extinguished Irgun and Lehi
It was a situation of “these terrorists join us for the same fight or we all lose, we all die and it’s continued persecution, hostility from surrounding countries and displacement from the region”
It was also a fight of around 30k soliders vs around 35k soliders from all arab countries combined at the start of the war in 1948 BUT by 1949 many had joined the IDF from out of country as the level of support for the cause was probably unexpected and we had nearly 100,000 members of the IDF… making Irgun and Lehi’s contribution by then to be less than 5-8% tops
My jewish friend, only thing that runs deep is your paranoia, I havent met a single person who wants to kill Jews or anything of that sort.
85% Muslim, 10% Christian, 5% Jewish.
The term “Palestinian” predates British rule. It was used during the Ottoman period and even earlier, Roman Syria Palaestina.
Now Palestinian refers almost exclusively to Arab Muslims and Christians because of the Zionist immigration during the British mandate era. Jews did not want to be Palestinian.
Yeah, thanks to the Rothschilds. They essentially bought it. That is what got all of this started. It was to gain favor with the Bankers that ran the country for over 100 years. Early lobbying.
People lived there for 2000 years, and the Jews just decided they wanted to move back.
I said Jews were 33% of the population. Why should they get 55%? Who cares where the Arabs were living?
Not to mention again a lot of the population was there by illegal immigration.
Up until 1917 it was 3–5% of the population.
And large-scale illegal immigration began after the 1939 White Paper, with partial illegal immigration before that (going over allowed quotas)
No, Irgun merged into the IDF.
Its leader, Menachem Begin, later became Israel’s Prime Minister (1977–1983) and won the Nobel Peace Prize. Yeah, this much better for a terrorist group…lol
Lehi- Disbanded, some members joined mainstream politics. Shamir became Israel’s Prime Minister.
But at least they were not in the IDF right? Not like they would have any influence on future politics and engagement.
I wonder why. Arab nationalist and militia efforts which were Muslim and Christian fought against Zionist immigration and the establishment of a Jewish state in a land they had lived in for 2000 years.
Some Israeli Jews refer to themselves as Palestinian Jews.
You haven’t been to Gaza.
Nope