The Israel War Thread

[squating_bear]

@RT_Nomad

IMO, it does appear that guile and deceit are acceptable PR strategies of many Muslims.

That appears accurate to me as well. It also appears to be an accurate description of many Christians, fwiw.

@RT_Nomad

My extreme logical approach to discussions see immediate departures from the truth when vagueness, deceit, and guile are used

A more extremely logical approach would be to not see departures from precision as the exact same as departures from accuracy, or truth

@RT_Nomad

No honorable person uses those tactics. (This is my opinion)

I wonder if a quick scan of your memory can’t return an instance of an honorable person within the Bible using vaguesness, deceit or guile, not even once. I think someone could, even if you can’t. (just my opinion, not a challenge)

… nevermind … reading on a bit…

@RT_Nomad

I cannot speak for anything in the Talmud. As to the book of Esther, sure she didn’t reveal that she was Jewish. Yes, it is a form of deceit. But the examples of Abraham and Jacob also used deceit. It is no big deal. They are all fallen men. They sin. They deceive. We all do. That includes the Muslims. Through out the Old Testament all men show themselves as sinners, with very few exceptions (Daniel stands out, for one). God works with sinners (or He works with no one.)
1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

The difference is that the Muslims have developed deceit into an acceptable art form.

It does seem that you have contradicted yourself. Have I misread you in this regard?

---

If I recall correctly, you said that the beginning of Mathew 7 doesn’t read the way I read it because of the end of Mathew 6. I would have thought that Mathew 7 fits together so that the middle and end of Mathew 7 is connected to its beginning, more so than a separate chapter, Mathew 6, even if it is closer in terms of physical writing, word count, in a physical book.
Specifically

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

How could one implement 7:12 without developing a kind and soft eye, in view of 7:2? How could the warnings of 7:21 to 7:27 be for anyone other than whoever would use it as fuel to take more seriously 7:2 and 7:12 in view of each other? Which match the second highest Christian virtue if I recall correctly - to love one’s neighbor as they love themselves

From the other thread which I am referring to:

@RT_Nomad

@squating_bear

A few phrases come to mind, I don’t know where they come from … I might just be accidentally making them up

Judge not lest you be judged
As you measure, so shall you too be measured
As you judge, so shall you too be judged

I will give you my interpretation of the passage you mention. From the KJV it comes from Matthew chapter 7:1-2

1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I see this as a pragmatic expectation when a person is judging others. We see that it is more of a pragmatic earthy expectation than an escape from judgment.

Note Hebrews 9:27, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

So it is clear that not judging others will not save you from judgment from God. (Actually judgment from the word of God, but that is a deeper conversation.)

Now look at the verse preceding Matthew chapter 7:
Matt 6:34, “Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” This is a pragmatic fact of living in this world.

So, as I see Matt 7:1-2, no one should be surprised that if they judge another, that they get judged by the other, or anyone who knows you judged another. It is sort of the old saying, “What goes around, comes around.”

I didn’t mean it as completely escaping judgement in an absolute sense, more like giving and getting a kinder judgement.

As in Matthew 6:14-15 (I just read Matthew 6 and 7 right now)

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Then Matthew 6:22-23

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[c] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[d] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

the footnotes of the website I was on say that [c] [d] healthy/unhealthy can indicate generosity and stinginess

A generous eye vs stingy eye would match with Matthew 7:2

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 6 - New International Version

While I do see how Matt 6:34 is a pragmatic fact of living in this world, it also seems like advice in preparing for an afterlife.

I also thought that the old saying, “What goes around, comes around” is describing the Hindu concept of Karma, which I agree, does bear resemblance

So, as I see Matt 7:1-2, no one should be surprised that if they judge another, that they get judged by the other, or anyone who knows you judged another. It is sort of the old saying, “What goes around, comes around.”

I agree with this I guess, I just think there is more - like remembering that God is The Other that is All Knowing and applying it specifically in that way

Thank you for the feedback and answering almost all of my questions. I had to give feedback to your feedback eventually, after giving it a rest first.

No disrespect intended. I stopped saying that somewhere along the way, and then some disrespect may have snuck it’s way in I guess. I blame demonic possession and recognize that I should not have let my guard down.