[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
Your right, this man obviously could never contribute to the building of elite athletes.[/quote]
Go ahead and change the subject all you want. I am laughing at the fact that you think someone who as never lifted weights but has a masters in bio-mechanics will come in and revolutionize the sport. Like weight lifters over the generations are idiots and we need some one with no experience but has a masters to explain in detail the overhead press.
You could put up a picture of Ronnie Coleman and tell me he has a masters in Bio-mechanics but that wasn’t your first point.
To clarify, that is Yuri Verkoshansky and Tudor Bompa, two of the most influential strength coaches of all time. Much of what people follow on these forums is based off of the original work of people like these guys who were, wait for it, thinkers not lifters.
I could go on with alot more examples but, people will either get the point or not,which is that the training of elite athletes has been refined and perfected by non-elite ahtletes with high degrees of knowledge, so there is no need in getting into a back and forth with someone who cannot even use the quote button in a way that makes it clear what he is saying or even whom he is talking to.
Jlone - Silverdan makes a valid point. There are researchers/thinkers that are great at what they do and can find application to things without having to go through the trials and tribulations themselves.
Silverdan - To be fair, there are many with higher education that feel they can give advice (such as doctors) on training and nutrition that aren’t worth a flip. Yes someone may have high level credentials but unless they have been applied to our field, I think they’re relatively worthless.
Your sisters partner that has never lifted weights may have a masters in biomechanics but may not have the body of work, nor the focus of study towards improving things in the weight room. I’d take it with a grain of salt. One of the reason verkoshansky, issurin, yessis, bompa and others get the credibility they do is that they provide the science and test it using people that are actual athletes, that are competitive.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Jlone - Silverdan makes a valid point. There are researchers/thinkers that are great at what they do and can find application to things without having to go through the trials and tribulations themselves.
Silverdan - To be fair, there are many with higher education that feel they can give advice (such as doctors) on training and nutrition that aren’t worth a flip. Yes someone may have high level credentials but unless they have been applied to our field, I think they’re relatively worthless.
Your sisters partner that has never lifted weights may have a masters in biomechanics but may not have the body of work, nor the focus of study towards improving things in the weight room. I’d take it with a grain of salt. One of the reason verkoshansky, issurin, yessis, bompa and others get the credibility they do is that they provide the science and test it using people that are actual athletes, that are competitive. [/quote]
I absolutely, agree, many of the soviets did have athletic backrounds as well, usually not as elite level as the athletes they coached.
The question of relevant exp. is exactly why i said I would listen, apply and see if the suggestion had any merit, rather than assuming it’s truth on blind faith.
My main point was that to discount any and all advice instead just because the person is not as strong or big, is a type of attitude which has held many people back from reaching their own potential.
[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
I absolutely, agree, many of the soviets did have athletic backrounds as well, usually not as elite level as the athletes they coached.
The question of relevant exp. is exactly why i said I would listen, apply and see if the suggestion had any merit, rather than assuming it’s truth on blind faith.
My main point was that to discount any and all advice instead just because the person is not as strong or big, is a type of attitude which has held many people back from reaching their own potential.
[/quote]
Indeed, that can be problematic. I think in a gym setting - which is what this thread’s context is, size/strength are the easiest things to judge whether or not someones opinion might have merit. I know I’ll do that as well as I’m not likely to take the time to learn someones credentials and hear their life story as to WHY I should listen to them. It’s simply the easiest, most identifiable thing to determine advice validity by on the quick and easy at the gym. What you said, stands true, but I’m likely to look into that more outside of a gym context.
[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
To clarify, that is Yuri Verkoshansky and Tudor Bompa, two of the most influential strength coaches of all time. Much of what people follow on these forums is based off of the original work of people like these guys who were, wait for it, thinkers not lifters.
[/quote]
Fine lets continue with your new example since your last one didn’t work out too well for ya. Since these two men are known as the most influential strength coaches of all time, do you think they had credentials or a good track record to go with that fame?
Also, do you think they spent a lot of time studying athletes before pioneering new personalization/psychometric theory’s or do you think they walked into the gym holding their diplomas and started giving direction?
Since I originally stated that a coach will have a track record and credentials I think we can agree on that point. The only thing we are disagreeing on is the fact that you think your sisters partner, a none experienced graduate student in bio-mechanics, should give advice on lifting form in the gym.
[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
The question of relevant exp. is exactly why i said I would listen, apply and see if the suggestion had any merit, rather than assuming it’s truth on blind faith.
My main point was that to discount any and all advice instead just because the person is not as strong or big, is a type of attitude which has held many people back from reaching their own potential.
[/quote]
I have gone to a few expos and paid to here lectures. I also read books on different sports training theory. Maybe it is poor judgment on my behalf but if they had something worth hearing they would write a book on it or give a training seminar, etc.
Not listening to every random person in the gym doesn’t hold people back but thinking you have perfect form and don’t need to keep learning will.
Since I originally stated that a coach will have a track record and credentials I think we can agree on that point. The only thing we are disagreeing on is the fact that you think your sisters partner, a none experienced graduate student in bio-mechanics, should give advice on lifting form in the gym. [/quote]
Where did I say this, go back and read carefully, then look at the last three points clarifying EXACTLY what I said. Your only arguments so far are based off you apparently making sure you comprehend what was written before you start typing your response.
[quote]
Since I originally stated that a coach will have a track record and credentials I think we can agree on that point. The only thing we are disagreeing on is the fact that you think your sisters partner, a none experienced graduate student in bio-mechanics, should give advice on lifting form in the gym. [/quote]
Where did I say this, go back and read carefully, then look at the last three points clarifying EXACTLY what I said. Your only arguments so far are based off you apparently making sure you comprehend what was written before you start typing your response.[/quote]
Are you kidding?
[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
My sisters partner is a genius with at least a masters in biomechanics. She doesnt even LIFT weights, but if she saw my dl and made a suggestion about experimenting with a joint angle to create a higher degree of mechanical leverage, I sure as hell would listen, give it a try and see if it has any merit.[/quote]
^^^Perhaps you should think about what you are writing so we don’t need to have a page long thread discussion to “clarify” your point. You can’t fault the reader for his interpretation just the writer for lack of clarity.
This debate is quickly turning into a debate of whether people who know why something works are better or people who put in their time under the bar. The two groups bring different things to the table. To ignore one group based solely on the fact they dont lift is just as asinine as to ignore a top ranked bodybuilder cause he can’t explain myosin function. In the gym though I’m not usually there to learn, I’m there to train. If you interrupt me it better be good.
[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:
i have been on that same side of this debate for many years especially on forums. i dont think it will ever get better. in real life its not much better.
[/quote]
and there ya go. here it is again. and as usual with any forum debate people are going to extremes to prove a point.
i like the trivial information that is extreme athletic performance or extreme knowledge/experience but i like to help people with lifting advice that applies to the other 99% of the worlds population. which is a lot easier in my opinion.
there is also the viewpoint of know thy enemy. i have read books and online articles on things i thought were total rubbish mainly just to know about it when people asked me about it so i could set them straight. on rare occasions hearing about some silliness has allowed me to come up with a better way to explain or do something that is correct. so as much as i dont like to be interrupted while working out, as much as i would call the person an idiot whether he is stronger then me or not as many are stronger, part of me will take in the info and use it at some point. and it does make for great stories like this thread. a commercial gym are like forums. anyone can join, anyone can speak up, anyone can be a troll, anyone can do near anything. its annoying and part of being in a public place.
[quote]tveddy wrote:
This debate is quickly turning into a debate of whether people who know why something works are better or people who put in their time under the bar. The two groups bring different things to the table. To ignore one group based solely on the fact they dont lift is just as asinine as to ignore a top ranked bodybuilder cause he can’t explain myosin function. In the gym though I’m not usually there to learn, I’m there to train. If you interrupt me it better be good. [/quote]
thank you! excellent point. better then my long drawn out stuff.
You are 100% correct . I own my own place so this isn’t an issue. But I’m 5’ 6/7" and 210 lbs . Whenever I have the misfortune to train I’m public no one bothers me. When you get in the 5 plus plates a side on pulls people just stare and stay clear.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[quote]tveddy wrote:
OK, so dilemma. I dont want to be that person, but I see someone doing squats where their knees are traveling forward and then they put on their chopat strap to finish their leg workout. Do I tell them that if they squatted correctly they might not have the knee pain? So far, I haven’t found time to interrupt my workout. [/quote]
It depends…are you jacked? Do you look like you work out? Do you have a resepctable squat?
If the answers to these 3 questions is at least “SOMEWHAT”, then you are fully authorized to help someone out. The best approach to keep someone from getting pissed is to start small talk and follow up with “do you mind if I offer a couple tips I’ve found help me out?” Then go into whatever corrections you want…everyone wins in this scenario
If the answer to either of these 3 questions is at all debatable, then dont detract from your workout and keep lifting until you look like you spend some time in the gym…[/quote]
I would say those are good rules, but the problem is this. I’ll never be big enough and I’ll never be strong enough, and I dont like interrupting my workout. So the question really is “at what point should you feel obligated to help someone?” Is it only if they are young and at risk of hurting themselves? [/quote]
Well, considering this is the Powerlifting forum and not the fucking bodybuilding forum where everyone is obsessed with implementing CT’s newest super secret black ops program that only requires 36.4 seconds rest between sets, half of which has to be spent drinking the newest super secret black ops supplement while performing activity recovery in the 3rd gym session of the day, I don’t really think the whole “interrupting my workout” thing has much merit.
We are obviously passionate about training here. Do you not have a desire to share that passion with others and help out those that are in need? If not, then you are a selfish douche. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. If you need a criteria for when you should feel guilted…oops ‘obligated’…into helping someone then its probably best that you don’t help anyone out at all.
My policy is I will help out anyone that looks like they are trying and actually wants to improve themselves (and not just going through the motions), but just need a little nudge in the right direction.[/quote]
If you want to give me advice you better be stronger than me, more experienced than me, have learned more than me, and professional when you do it. Don’t bother me while I’m training.
And if your name is verkoshansky, Simmons , or bompa I either know you or I’m there at your seminar .
If you’re a grad student in biomechanics I don’t care if you don’t lift. Biomechanics involves a lot of things and not everyone will be well versed in lifting .
[quote]tom63 wrote:
You are 100% correct . I own my own place so this isn’t an issue. But I’m 5’ 6/7" and 210 lbs . Whenever I have the misfortune to train I’m public no one bothers me. When you get in the 5 plus plates a side on pulls people just stare and stay clear.
[/quote]
^ this
[quote]tom63 wrote:
If you want to give me advice you better be stronger than me, more experienced than me, have learned more than me, and professional when you do it. Don’t bother me while I’m training.