I would be very careful about using this as an arguing point, because it’s dangerously close to the flip side of vegans arguing that oxen are enormous and they eat only plants.
Humans are not tigers, nor are we oxen. We’re humans. Don’t use a different species to help further your point.
I’ve been around both camps and one model seems vastly superior. The health problems, especially of non-meticulous vegans are astounding, tragic even when you know these guys on an intimate level.
Now I don’t advocate carnivorism because I still want more data, both personal and nonpersonal (ask me again in ten years). But so far it’s almost too good to be true and again, classic theories have hard time explaining it which is a big problem for me and also the whole crux.
Similarly, Keto, which also seems easily the best type of (fat reducing)diet was attacked incessantly by the “muh studies” faction and the results are pretty one dimensional now: If you have lots of lard to lose, can cope with the limited food plate and your body can handle the fat it’s clearly better than, for instance, weight watchers which uses a classic model and will bind you for all time like some evil Tolkien ring with tedious math and yoyo-fear.
Your we’re not tigers! argument is pretty stale. I did not say anything about raw steaks and crunching femurs with your jaw. Most carnivores include a bunch of other stuff like butter, bonebroth, even milk. Are Masai not human to you?
At long last a Tolkien reference. Brilliant ol’ chap.
I did. Watched it all the way through.
I haven’t followed this thread in its entirety, but I have a few thoughts on it… mostly negative.
I was really disappointed by the movie because I think there are a LOT of good reasons out there to eat a vegetarian or vegan diet. The notion that a vegan diet supports athletic pursuits better than an omnivorous one is not one of those reasons. This doc uses so much bad ‘science’ (if you can even really call it that), fear-mongering, misinformation, cherry-picked results, etc. A lot of nonsense that I believe is in bad faith. It could have been a whole lot better if the focus had been more on the ethics of a plant-based diet, and the proposition of an omnivorous diet with a shift towards more plants, less processed foods, and probably even less meat.
A couple specifics that got under my skin, one in the opening minutes. The narrator is talking about nutrition, and he says ‘I’d always thought PROTEIN is what fueled workouts!’ Come on, man. That is NOT the prevailing sentiment in nutrition and exercise science today. Only the few wakadoos on the other side of the spectrum (the carnivore diet dunces) believe that bs. The idea that carbs fuel workouts is something I started reading about right here on this site 15+ years ago. So that part came off to me as very disingenuous and started me off on the wrong foot. It’s a strawman.
The mma stuff they got COMPLETELY wrong, in literally a dozen ways. That annoyed me.
Then the fucking strongman… oh man. That dude is a nobody, and has no world records to his name. Nobody in strongman takes him serious. He’s a buffoon and a liar.
The film is a propaganda piece, produced by an individual who is HEAVILY invested in the pea protein industry.
It’s good propaganda though. I can see this film effectively convincing a lot of people.
The Maasai largely consume milk, especially fermented milk, supplemented with herbs and bark. Meat doesn’t make up as significant an amount of their diet, because they rely on their herds for milk, and meat would mean thinning the herd. They also live a vastly different lifestyle than the majority of people thinking of going “carnivorous” or largely so.
Which brings me to another point to consider: we need to be careful about using a people or society to enforce a point, because usually they’ve become adapted to that style of living for decades, if not centuries. The human body is incredibly diverse and adaptable, but it still takes time for generations to adapt.
I didn’t clarify earlier, but I’m actually on your side in terms of animal product consumption; I’m blessed to have to ability where I live to hunt and fish for most of my meat, and I drink a shitload of good ol’ Canadian milk. I still eat fruits and veggies, and certain grains because of the calories and I know my body can tolerate them. I know the quality of what I’m eating is good, which not everyone is able to say.
My point was just to be careful about making blanket statements because human beings are so varied and diverse as a species.
Nicely put flip. It is amazing how much people can be swayed by this type of propaganda movie. I have spoken to a few intelligent adults (relative term I guess ) who have watched the film and were already thinking about going straight to a vegan diet. Very odd in my opinion. Given that there current diet that includes meat also most likely includes no where near enough fruit and veggies and too much processed crap. Why not just keep a small amount of meet but really focus on improving your vegetable intake and cut out the crap food first. It’s like they see the film and then want to go 0-100 in 3 secs. They could get most of not all of the benefits sprooked in the movie just be eating a few veggies every day.
The thing is, Oxen and lions both live metabolically on fat. The lions eats fat while the ox gut flora turn grass into fatty acids before it enters the bloodstream.
Oh I know. Trust me, I think the ox argument is ridiculous, because it’s not as black and white as “grass makes it big”. There’s a whole host of other factors at play.
I don’t know from which eso-site you pulled your knowledge, but it’s plainly ridiculous. Their traditional diet revoloves around meat products (duh), milk and blood. You honestly think they herd those bulls because they like cow shit in their village? Herding cattle is nothing special and you usually eat meat, because, that’s the point (India is an exception but they also let most young bulls die).
If you respond again, I’ll be genuinely surprised that you didn’t explode from sheer hypocrisy moments after writing this.
Multiple sites, actually. One of which was from a Danish study.
I never said they didn’t eat meat, I said it wasn’t the most significant portion of their diet. From what I’ve read they DO eat meat, but most of it is consumed during special occasions such as festivals.
I don’t know how much farming/herding you’ve done, but you don’t keep your herds immediately inside your property. They’re not going to have a 50+ group of cattle wandering throughout the village. This is a silly statement.
They keep those herds because they view cattle ownership as a right of their people, going so far as to steal cattle from surrounding tribes in days past. In their religion, they have cow deities. Cattle are important as sustenance, but also a symbol. A large herd and many children equate to a successful man.
Also, nowadays the Maasai diet is quite often a mix of animal product and agriculture, because they don’t have the space to graze their previously large herds anymore due to forcible downsizing by governments.
I fail to understand why you’re fighting so vehemently on one point. I simply corrected a statement you made, and as I mentioned earlier, I’m largely in agreement with you over consumption of animal products. You really come off as just wanting a fight.
The point is, their traditional diet is a carnivorous one. About twenty five years ago I heard about their lifestyle for the first time and was shaken. Meat, milk and blood? How was that even possible? Young me was intrigued. I immediately reported to my biology teach the next day and started the kind of debate where sheer academic authority simply takes control and, using the classroom, nips a revolutionary thought in the bud through ridicule-from-the-top.
Someone pointed out the Inuit (as they were called back then) which the teacher immediately swiped away, eyes rolling: -and I bet he absolutely was freeballing at that point - “yeah but they’re diseased and retarded because of that, it’s really a shame”.
If you have 50+ heads of cattle, your family can eat meat pretty much every day. A grown animal offers hundred thousands of calories. Of course, you won’t eat through that much in a meal or even a week, even with a big clan, but there’s ways to preserve food, sell or trade to others in order to get fresh meat when they are having a butcher’s day.
Food for thought: Even if a group only drinks milk, this is existentially still a carnivorous lifestyle because for the cow to give milk, its young has to dissappear.
Yep this. Honestly, the thing that irritates me about other vegans is that they make really extreme claims about animal products being bad for you. Like flip said, there are a lot of reasons to go vegan, but “it’s healthier than the alternative” was never one of the reasons I went vegan. In reality, I expected to have worse health as a vegan. This was a tradeoff I was willing to take because of my personal beliefs.
It’s just too much of a jump to go from “veggies are good for you and some processed animal products are bad for you” to “all animal products are bad and a clean vegan diet is necessarily healthier than a clean omnivorous one”. There are probably longevity benefits to eating a lower protein and a low calorie diet, but performance? I don’t buy that at all
P.S. for a fact check, that bit about longevity benefits I got from David Sinclair and Peter Attia in case anyone is interested
Exactly. There’s definitely not longevity benefits to eating a high protein diet.
Yawn. How about you tell us FINALLY what a balanced diet actually is.
Without hard concepts, this is just hot air, more “muh epidmiological studies” bs.
Nutrition is full of nice labels that mean nothing (eg “mediterranean diet”). You’re simply repeating hollow marketing.
Lean ish proteins (dairy, eggs, poultry, red meat, beans, fish, the whole spectrum)
Vegetables
Fruits
Nuts
Seeds
Whatever starch you tolerate, I’m suggesting tubers for their superior micronutrient content and better satiation compared to grains
You can supplement B vitamins if you believe that modern soils are depleted yadda yadda
Figure out your TDEE
Did I say it ain’t hard?
45-55% carbohydrates
15-25% protein
20-40% fat
@tontongg covered the food sources
Seems rather arbitrary.
Because it’s not exact numbers?