Hopefully the right parts of the right ones.
I have yet to see any data supporting a diet high in animal products. Only data against.
Do you admit that studied nutrition brought us much harm?
The problem with epidemiology and nutrition is healthy user bias. People that eat more plants do a lot of other healthy things too including people like vegans. Paying attention to and being conscious of what you are consuming leads to better outcomes in general. Epidemiological studies end up comparing vegans/vegetarians to people eating the SAD. Which is no surprise they favor plant eating.
We can get into more nit-picky stuff, but heart disease risk in most of the studies is HIGHLY flawed. For example many are reporting improved cardiovascular health by lowering total cholesterol which is BS. That COULD be equally quantified as plants increasing cancer risk. It’s just nonsense.
Intervention studies tend to look like this: The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) - YouTube
Correct. That’s still not evidence for eating meat though. It’s just a hypothesis that meat isn’t the cause. There’s not much data out there comparing vegans to health conscious meat eaters.
I’ve seen one study comparing vegans to runners to gen pop. Vegans and runners health markers did not vary and all were better than the gen pop. Most notably the vegans and runners were both at a healthy BMI, which is a major contributing factor.
Why are you so convinced it’s not the whole food plant based diet that is benefiting them?
Eating a balanced diet of whole foods, mostly plants, and some animal products is backed by science. Lots of it. Eating mostly meat is not. Maybe it’s not the vegetables, but I’d rather rely on existing data, even if the comparison groups are not perfect, rather than speculate that the studies may be wrong because X,Y,Z.
Actually, you were the one making the claims to change people’s diets, I haven’t seen any good evidence to back your recommendation. We’ve been eating meat for millions of years, you are the one telling people to change and eat less, you need to support it. As I’ve said most interventional studies have been failures for plant consumption.
The BMI thing I agree with. MOST of the benefit people see with any diet is weight loss. People can get healthier eating mostly ding dongs if they can lose a bunch of weight. So if a diet works for weight loss with someone it probably makes them healthier too. Atkins or vegan.
Because when you adjust for other factors the plant benefit goes away as you mentioned. And when you intervene to get someone to eat more plants outcomes are poor. I pay more attention to application than epidemiology for those reasons. The change is TO a plant based diet from people have traditionally done. There isn’t good evidence to make that change.
Regardless of the micro level arguments, look at the macro level. The US has been pushing a plant based diet and demonizing animal products and animal fat starting in the 70s. What has been the outcome? Did you know that Americans have actually followed those recommendations? They cut back on animals and especially animal fat and replaced it with grains and plant fats since the government intervened. It isn’t hyperbole to conclude those recommendations have killed millions of people and left much of the population fat and sick in unprecedented levels. It’s been tried on a macro level. It’s been a colossal failure. People were healthier back when they ate lots of lard and whole milk.
Right.
The devil is, however, in the details. A plant based perfect diet could become or a 10/10 or even more (?!) if deficiencies or allergies show up.
Suppose a vegan has a zinc deficiency. After careful analysis of the available food list, his magic stones divine to not eat more nuts as he’s already stuffing himself on cashews, pecans and almonds. His oracle tells him to go with a concentrated vitamin instead. However, the corrupt imperialist doctor still finds the same symptoms (which can happen btw. Without certain cofactors, enzymes etc, your blood can absolutely carry high levels of minerals or vitamins without doing the deficiency any good!) - luckily, his I Ching warns him to disregard the fascist.
After being discharged from the hospital a few months later, he decides to include beef once a week against the wishes of his spirit animal. His soulmate from local LGBTSKXYFFL®XC++ chapter hands him a yummy recipe but his pain continues. If only there was an explanation…(maybe here ?)
Honestly, it’s probably best to toss out some holy cows completely. There is no evidence that our forefathers ever ate salads. Same with most fruits. The last time Gronk (from my father’s side) regularly ate pinapples, dinosaur-on-human crime still was a problem. Conversely, I’m slightly fructose intolerant.
Half of my close family members love to munch on green, leafy stuff but exactly this half has had kidney stones (probably from those oxalate-orgies with extra ranch).
I love sauerkraut like the gods of the four winds command us to but pray too hard to each of them for 2-3 solid days afterwards. This can’t be healthy…
You see my problem: Most of the absurd hype was simply engineered. Well-balanced this, eat your veggies that - how about chicken feet in eye soup? What was wrong with this classic dish? So I tossed out most green crap and voila, everything works better. Meat is eaten with very reduced side dishes.Suprisingly, chocolate junk food works well to up calories, in reasonable amounts of course.
I regret following baumbodies’ logic for too many years, hopefully he smarts up faster.
Just to add another data point, I’m vegan for reasons unrelated to health. I thought the movie was pretty cool. I’m sure it got some stuff right and some stuff wrong.
For an n=1 perspective, I made the switch to completely vegan a bit more than a year ago. I’ve increased my strength and general fitness since then. I also got the most lean I’ve ever been. I haven’t noticed a detriment to performance, but I haven’t noticed a benefit either.
In one of his videos, Clarence Kennedy said that he feels pretty much the same since he went vegan 4 years ago, and I have had the same experience thus far. I just got a full doctor’s exam, and he said that my bloods and lipids were fantastic, so I’m going to try to keep doing what I’m doing to maintain my health
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…is on artificial hormones…
And like every vegan I’ve known from training in clubs and meeting on the track (n= ~20+), you will run into problems.
My point is eat more plants, not eat less meat. We also lived outdoors and slept on the ground for hundreds of thousands of years. Should we do that too? Which interventional studies are you talking about?
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I’m just holding out hope that modern medicine will be able to cure my sick and emaciated vegan physique
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So you are suggesting that people increase food? And Calories?
Yes, it would probably be beneficial for most people to spend more time outdoors roughing it, but that isn’t the parallel. The parallel would be that you are claiming people should spend more time indoors for health.
I posted a presentation of one study for example. The biggest and most notorious would be the nurse’s study. Do you have any intervention studies supporting your recommendation?
What do you think there is evidence for then? There definitely isn’t evidence for eating LESS plant foods or eating MORE meat.
Have they though? The US government actually puts more money toward protein and dairy than plants.
People were healthier when they didn’t eat processed foods. When they ate less calories overall.
Again, you are the one promoting change. But yes, there is. Again, in the US when meat and animal fat consumption were higher, people were healthier.
This is the nutrition info the government taught me as a kid. It looks almost identical to what you are pushing. Americans did actually listen and move toward this model. It killed millions of people and has made 10s of millions sick and fat.
Great. we have the same conclusion, processed foods are crap. Glad to see you came around. 
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The Nurse’s Study isn’t an interventional study.
Haha came around? I was already there.
Unless I am wrong there was an intervention part, but it does look at intake in an individual as it changes over time.
You dropped the “but mostly plants” part and said exactly what I said earlier.