The Fix for the Economy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
suruppak wrote:
“I am not looking for tariffs or governmental interference in the least bit. In reference to my first post, it should be the responsibility of the US consumers.”

I agree with this. I don’t condone government tariffs either.

I can choose to base my buying decisions on anything I want, and if enough people do, companies will listen. For instance, if everyone started buying only motorcycles with sidecars big enough to carry a cow, pretty soon, a lot more motorcycles would come with cow-sized sidecars.

My money is the only real vote I have.

OK great, list a car manufacturer, a computer manufactorer, and insurance provider and a bank that are 100% American and have no part of the product or service run or built overseas.[/quote]

As stated in an earlier post, there are not many 100%, but they are out there; specifically using such web sites as madeinusa.com, some 100% stuff can be found. As stated earlier, 50% is better than 0%.

Money is the real vote. If everyone chose not to buy products made in Mexico or China, a company would have no choice but to oblige the customer.

42

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
shookers wrote:
We have to think for you?

What if every country “bought nationally”. Think of the consequences.

What would be the consequences? Other countries don’t buy that much from the US, and what do we need from other countries we cannot do ourselves?
It seems the US did just fine before there was a global economy.

Please tell me that this is sarcasm!

US exports are vital to your economy and if you are fine with no imports then I hope you don’t like using your cell phone for one.[/quot

The point is, there is nothing made in another country that cannot be made in US, and exports are not that vital. That is not saying to forego trade completely, it would be impossible, but the more US manufacturing, and the purchase of those domestically prduced items the better.

43

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
So what you are saying is first there is good economy, then comes the jobs. Is that correct? [/quote]

Yes.

Jobs only come about because there is a consumer base but unfortunately many of the consumers here are diabetic in regard to liquidity.

This means entrepreneurs here must search for customers elsewhere, then must figure out how to make a profitable product, and then must compete with the rest of the world for a share of the market.

Workers here need to compete with the world market. This means lower wages. Once we become competitive and then productive again wages will rise.

A good, quick depression will fix everything.

44

If we are supposed to be levying ourselves to jumpstart OUR economy, why should a single penny of it be headed anywhere but OUR economy. We are trying to jumpstart our economy right? Or are we “trying to jumpstart our economy” by completing everything the Democrats wanted to done for the last 35 years in one fell swoop?

You fix the doctor first, so he can fix the patients, IMO.

It’s not like this is a lot of money we’re talking about anyway. This debt we’re putting on ourselves, only a small portion of it is going to physical infrastructure, which means an even smaller portion will be buying the products in question (steel) here. It’s not like we’re writing off high-quality Chinese steel for the rest of American history or anything.

And then you know, all those used-to-be 500k and up a year Wall Street folks, you know they’ll hop on building them roads.

45

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
So what you are saying is first there is good economy, then comes the jobs. Is that correct?

Yes.

Jobs only come about because there is a consumer base but unfortunately many of the consumers here are diabetic in regard to liquidity.

This means entrepreneurs here must search for customers elsewhere, then must figure out how to make a profitable product, and then must compete with the rest of the world for a share of the market.

Workers here need to compete with the world market. This means lower wages. Once we become competitive and then productive again wages will rise.

A good, quick depression will fix everything.[/quote]

No: first the jobs started to disappear, then the economy fell. Until the jobs come back, how can the economy improve?

46

Holy shit so much retardation in one thread.

J Eldred US exports 1.65 Trillion dollars worth of merchandise. IT EXPORTS WHAT IT DOES BEST AND IMPORTS WHAT IT DOES WORST.

You want to make all the products you buy? Fine, then lose out on selling 1.65 Trillion dollars of merchandise you are more effective at making.

msd0600, every country is passing stimulus packages. If america’s focuses on only “Buy American”, China on “Buy Chinese”, each countries wastes a fuck ton of money, because they’re making products they’re LESS QUALIFIED TO MAKE.

Don’t you guys understand the point of trade? If you SPECIALIZE in what you’re good at, and don’t make what you’re bad, and then trade - everyone wins. As soon as barriers go up, people start producing things they are bad are relatively poor at producing and the world falls apart.

If you buy only American steel, steel manufacuturers make a windfall, but the rest of the country looses cause its paying an inflated price.

47

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
So what you are saying is first there is good economy, then comes the jobs. Is that correct?

Yes.

Jobs only come about because there is a consumer base but unfortunately many of the consumers here are diabetic in regard to liquidity.

This means entrepreneurs here must search for customers elsewhere, then must figure out how to make a profitable product, and then must compete with the rest of the world for a share of the market.

Workers here need to compete with the world market. This means lower wages. Once we become competitive and then productive again wages will rise.

A good, quick depression will fix everything.

No: first the jobs started to disappear, then the economy fell. Until the jobs come back, how can the economy improve?

[/quote]

Stocks fell in June - recession started (Q3 Growth: -.3%). Jobs are being shed now. Way to be wrong?

48

I agree with J Eldred. I think the US should move people out of the laboratories and high end merchandise creation, and move these people to sweat shops. Then we will stop wasting our time on our greatest resource, our ingenuity, and start making some awesome Nike t-shirts.

49

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
suruppak wrote:
“I am not looking for tariffs or governmental interference in the least bit. In reference to my first post, it should be the responsibility of the US consumers.”

I agree with this. I don’t condone government tariffs either.

I can choose to base my buying decisions on anything I want, and if enough people do, companies will listen. For instance, if everyone started buying only motorcycles with sidecars big enough to carry a cow, pretty soon, a lot more motorcycles would come with cow-sized sidecars.

My money is the only real vote I have.

OK great, list a car manufacturer, a computer manufactorer, and insurance provider and a bank that are 100% American and have no part of the product or service run or built overseas.

As stated in an earlier post, there are not many 100%, but they are out there; specifically using such web sites as madeinusa.com, some 100% stuff can be found. As stated earlier, 50% is better than 0%.

Money is the real vote. If everyone chose not to buy products made in Mexico or China, a company would have no choice but to oblige the customer.

[/quote]

OK, just had a look on that website. Can’t find any cars, can’t find a bank, can’t find an insurer, found a computer assembler. They use pretty much all foreign parts and their prices are roughly double Dells so why would I buy from them?

50

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
There are a number of reasons for the horrible economy in which America finds itself in today, but the number one reason is the lack of jobs.

The reason for lack of jobs again is for a few reasons, but the main reason is outsourcing. I do not blame outsourcing on the business execs or politicians allowing it to happen. The blame needs to be placed on the American people for buying those products that are made in other countries. This in turn chiefly blames the American people for its own economic peril.

I have heard many reasons why people buy the products of other countries and they are completely unfounded, especially the one about foreign products being cheaper. If one was to do a little research, they would find the same products made in the States as foreign countries to resemble each other. Americans just don’t care and now we are paying for it.

If Americans want to turn the economy around, we need to be responsible to our selves and buy the products we make.

Why arbitrarily draw the line at Americas borders?

Why not the US?

Why not your state?

Why not your city, your block, your family, you alone?

If what you are proposing really made sense, everyone should grow his own food, make his own clothes, build his own house and so on., thereby maximizing his wealth.

Since that is clearly a recipe for disaster, what makes you think that any step in that direction could make America better off?

America would be better for the fact that more jobs would be created by purchasing American made products. An economy is strong because people have jobs, which is not the situation at this time

No, people have jobs because an economy is strong and not the other way around. Your idea will hardly strengthen your economy.

Then, you are a member of the WTO. Not only would you lose any credibility you have left if you start to dabble in protectionism if it suits you, you would also need to start a trade war with the EU and Japan which you cannot win.

An economy is strong because people have jobs; jobs make an economy strong. It is a cycle. How will people have jobs if manufacturing does not happen domestically? [/quote]

There is nothing cyclical about it.

Nobody opens a business in order to create jobs. The idea is to make money and if that means that you have to employ people so be it. Job creation is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.

Also, the very idea that “real jobs” need to be in manufacturing could prevent necessary structural change.

51

Cockney,

I don’t recall any computer EVER being made completely in the US. Computer prices aren’t falling because of cheap labor. This was a poor example to refute my observation.

I know you weren’t talking to me about that website, and I haven’t seen it, but State Farm is an American insurance company, and I bank at a local bank, not a large multinational bank.

So, I bank locally, buy my insurance locally, I get my vegetables from the local farmer’s market, I get deer from my neighbor in exchange for splitting wood for him, I get beef at a discount from my other neighbor because he uses my electricity for his fence, I try to grow as much of my own food as I can and can it, etc.

Does this mean I’m doing my part to destroy our economy? Should I find a bigger bank, start buying all my food only if it’s canned in Mexico, buy only South American beef, etc?

Sorry for the rambling post, but I enjoy seeing my energies and money being spread around to my local community rather to large multinational corporations when feasible. I don’t see how this is so bad.

52

[quote]shookers wrote:
Holy shit so much retardation in one thread.

J Eldred US exports 1.65 Trillion dollars worth of merchandise. IT EXPORTS WHAT IT DOES BEST AND IMPORTS WHAT IT DOES WORST.

You want to make all the products you buy? Fine, then lose out on selling 1.65 Trillion dollars of merchandise you are more effective at making.

msd0600, every country is passing stimulus packages. If america’s focuses on only “Buy American”, China on “Buy Chinese”, each countries wastes a fuck ton of money, because they’re making products they’re LESS QUALIFIED TO MAKE.

Don’t you guys understand the point of trade? If you SPECIALIZE in what you’re good at, and don’t make what you’re bad, and then trade - everyone wins. As soon as barriers go up, people start producing things they are bad are relatively poor at producing and the world falls apart.

If you buy only American steel, steel manufacuturers make a windfall, but the rest of the country looses cause its paying an inflated price.
[/quote]

I completely agree to SPECIALIZE. On the whole though, what is made in another country that cannot be made in US. I understand there will be some things, but on the whole there is not much made in other countries that cannot be made in America. In regards to that, in an earlier post I stated that it would be impossible to have 100% every product made 100% in US.

As far as buying only American steel, you must be forgetting the concept of competition that keeps prices from rising. Competition is the greatest price reducer.

53

[quote]suruppak wrote:
Cockney,

I don’t recall any computer EVER being made completely in the US. Computer prices aren’t falling because of cheap labor. This was a poor example to refute my observation.

I know you weren’t talking to me about that website, and I haven’t seen it, but State Farm is an American insurance company, and I bank at a local bank, not a large multinational bank.

So, I bank locally, buy my insurance locally, I get my vegetables from the local farmer’s market, I get deer from my neighbor in exchange for splitting wood for him, I get beef at a discount from my other neighbor because he uses my electricity for his fence, I try to grow as much of my own food as I can and can it, etc.

Does this mean I’m doing my part to destroy our economy? Should I find a bigger bank, start buying all my food only if it’s canned in Mexico, buy only South American beef, etc?

Sorry for the rambling post, but I enjoy seeing my energies and money being spread around to my local community rather to large multinational corporations when feasible. I don’t see how this is so bad.

[/quote]

It must be bad to try and keep everything local, I mean we wouldn’t want those big banks to waste away.

54

[quote]orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
There are a number of reasons for the horrible economy in which America finds itself in today, but the number one reason is the lack of jobs.

The reason for lack of jobs again is for a few reasons, but the main reason is outsourcing. I do not blame outsourcing on the business execs or politicians allowing it to happen. The blame needs to be placed on the American people for buying those products that are made in other countries. This in turn chiefly blames the American people for its own economic peril.

I have heard many reasons why people buy the products of other countries and they are completely unfounded, especially the one about foreign products being cheaper. If one was to do a little research, they would find the same products made in the States as foreign countries to resemble each other. Americans just don’t care and now we are paying for it.

If Americans want to turn the economy around, we need to be responsible to our selves and buy the products we make.

Why arbitrarily draw the line at Americas borders?

Why not the US?

Why not your state?

Why not your city, your block, your family, you alone?

If what you are proposing really made sense, everyone should grow his own food, make his own clothes, build his own house and so on., thereby maximizing his wealth.

Since that is clearly a recipe for disaster, what makes you think that any step in that direction could make America better off?

America would be better for the fact that more jobs would be created by purchasing American made products. An economy is strong because people have jobs, which is not the situation at this time

No, people have jobs because an economy is strong and not the other way around. Your idea will hardly strengthen your economy.

Then, you are a member of the WTO. Not only would you lose any credibility you have left if you start to dabble in protectionism if it suits you, you would also need to start a trade war with the EU and Japan which you cannot win.

An economy is strong because people have jobs; jobs make an economy strong. It is a cycle. How will people have jobs if manufacturing does not happen domestically?

There is nothing cyclical about it.

Nobody opens a business in order to create jobs. The idea is to make money and if that means that you have to employ people so be it. Job creation is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.

Also, the very idea that “real jobs” need to be in manufacturing could prevent necessary structural change.

[/quote]

“Real Jobs” should not have been described for manufacturing jobs. They should be used to employee many, and be be described as quantitative.

55

Regarding jobs and the economy, I guess the Unemployment Rate is no longer used to determine the strength of the economy. An “Economy Rate” is now used to determine the strength of the jobs.

56

[quote]suruppak wrote:
Cockney,

I don’t recall any computer EVER being made completely in the US. Computer prices aren’t falling because of cheap labor. This was a poor example to refute my observation.

I know you weren’t talking to me about that website, and I haven’t seen it, but State Farm is an American insurance company, and I bank at a local bank, not a large multinational bank.

So, I bank locally, buy my insurance locally, I get my vegetables from the local farmer’s market, I get deer from my neighbor in exchange for splitting wood for him, I get beef at a discount from my other neighbor because he uses my electricity for his fence, I try to grow as much of my own food as I can and can it, etc.

Does this mean I’m doing my part to destroy our economy? Should I find a bigger bank, start buying all my food only if it’s canned in Mexico, buy only South American beef, etc?

Sorry for the rambling post, but I enjoy seeing my energies and money being spread around to my local community rather to large multinational corporations when feasible. I don’t see how this is so bad.

[/quote]

I fully support your decision to buy produce that is locally produced where possible, the savings in emissions from the transport coupled with the likely higher quality make that sensible however I very much doubt either your bank or your insurer are as local as you think they are.

I would be almost certain that your bank invests globally and your Insurer sells your risk to an underwriter that is globally linked.

Add into that the fact that your local providers of produce are almost definitely reliant in some way on importing raw materials or exporting their produce to a wider market than just your local area and you are probably not as local as you thought you were.

57

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
Regarding jobs and the economy, I guess the Unemployment Rate is no longer used to determine the strength of the economy. An “Economy Rate” is now used to determine the strength of the jobs.[/quote]

Way to miss the point. The height of a mercury column in a glass tube is used to measure the temperature, this doesn’t mean that you can change the temperature by adjusting the height of mercury in a glass tube.

58

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
suruppak wrote:
Cockney,

I don’t recall any computer EVER being made completely in the US. Computer prices aren’t falling because of cheap labor. This was a poor example to refute my observation.

I know you weren’t talking to me about that website, and I haven’t seen it, but State Farm is an American insurance company, and I bank at a local bank, not a large multinational bank.

So, I bank locally, buy my insurance locally, I get my vegetables from the local farmer’s market, I get deer from my neighbor in exchange for splitting wood for him, I get beef at a discount from my other neighbor because he uses my electricity for his fence, I try to grow as much of my own food as I can and can it, etc.

Does this mean I’m doing my part to destroy our economy? Should I find a bigger bank, start buying all my food only if it’s canned in Mexico, buy only South American beef, etc?

Sorry for the rambling post, but I enjoy seeing my energies and money being spread around to my local community rather to large multinational corporations when feasible. I don’t see how this is so bad.

It must be bad to try and keep everything local, I mean we wouldn’t want those big banks to waste away.[/quote]

No, we realy, really wouldn’t. We are seeing that on a daily basis.

If you are prepared to go back to a medieval standard of living then you can get things as local as you like (I sometimes romantecise that this would be nice) other than that, start thinking of yourself as a member of the human race living on Planet Earth first and an American a distant second.

59

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
shookers wrote:
This is so backwards it’s amazing. Protectionism never has and never will be the solution, only the problem.

You should make goods where they may be made at the lowest cost. Every person should conduct business in which they have a competitive advantage

I am not sure how protectionism is the problem? We have no protection at all and we have the worst economy since the 30’s.

Products should be made where it makes sense to make them. It would not make sense to grow bananas in Minnesota, and sometimes it just does not make sense for America to produce certain things. However, that is not competitive adavantage, and referencing my first post, products made in foreign countries are typically not cheaper than those produced domestically.[/quote]

The economy is in collapse because the housing market collapsed. That’s the prime mover here. That’s the first domino to fall. That happened because our government, in it’s wisdom, decided that all American’s, whether they can afford it or not, deserved the home the wanted. And lenders were made to lend to those they’d never lend to otherwise. Start there. Then move on to unions. The fact that Detroit has spend a certian amount of union dollars for every auto produced kind of puts limits on any kind of production cost savings that can realized, don’t you think? I’m sure you’re a union guy. You’re probably throwing a tantrum and looking to go Hoffa on someone. Good for you. Just know that unions have a place and have done some good things. But they are also a shield that inferior, unambitions, unproductive workers hide behind. And it’s detroying our ability to move forward.

60

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
Regarding jobs and the economy, I guess the Unemployment Rate is no longer used to determine the strength of the economy. An “Economy Rate” is now used to determine the strength of the jobs.

Way to miss the point. The height of a mercury column in a glass tube is used to measure the temperature, this doesn’t mean that you can change the temperature by adjusting the height of mercury in a glass tube.[/quote]

I think you are missing the point. When the unemployment rate is low, the economy is strong. In contrast, when the unemployment rate is high, the economy is weak. I guess this is mere coincidence.

I also suppose Roosevelt had it all wrong when he enacted the New Deal to produce jobs, among other things, for the masses because of an unemployment of 25% and even higher in some sectors. This was, and still holds true today, because jobs dictate economy.