The Fix for the Economy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
There are a number of reasons for the horrible economy in which America finds itself in today, but the number one reason is the lack of jobs.

The reason for lack of jobs again is for a few reasons, but the main reason is outsourcing. I do not blame outsourcing on the business execs or politicians allowing it to happen. The blame needs to be placed on the American people for buying those products that are made in other countries. This in turn chiefly blames the American people for its own economic peril.

I have heard many reasons why people buy the products of other countries and they are completely unfounded, especially the one about foreign products being cheaper. If one was to do a little research, they would find the same products made in the States as foreign countries to resemble each other. Americans just don’t care and now we are paying for it.

If Americans want to turn the economy around, we need to be responsible to our selves and buy the products we make.

Why arbitrarily draw the line at Americas borders?

Why not the US?

Why not your state?

Why not your city, your block, your family, you alone?

If what you are proposing really made sense, everyone should grow his own food, make his own clothes, build his own house and so on., thereby maximizing his wealth.

Since that is clearly a recipe for disaster, what makes you think that any step in that direction could make America better off?

America would be better for the fact that more jobs would be created by purchasing American made products. An economy is strong because people have jobs, which is not the situation at this time

No, people have jobs because an economy is strong and not the other way around. Your idea will hardly strengthen your economy.

Then, you are a member of the WTO. Not only would you lose any credibility you have left if you start to dabble in protectionism if it suits you, you would also need to start a trade war with the EU and Japan which you cannot win.
[/quote]

An economy is strong because people have jobs; jobs make an economy strong. It is a cycle. How will people have jobs if manufacturing does not happen domestically?

22

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
suruppak wrote:
Shookers, thanks for the clarification, it looked to me like you were saying that the companies should make goods where the cost was lowest, period.

I’m not sure that most companies move their businesses to Mexico or China, or their tech support to India, in order to best satisfy their customers however.

Anecdotally, I haven’t met anyone that is glad a particular product is made in China or Mexico, or are glad that when their computer breaks their tech support helpdesk is in India.

I can also see that lower prices would satisfy consumers, that is a valid point. However, I personally have not seen any product that was once produced in the US, that became noticeably cheaper upon moving to Mexico or China.

Orion, I definitely see where it wouldn’t make sense in those two cases.

I don’t have a background in economics, I get the impression maybe you guys do. I am only telling you what I have observed so far personally.

So computers are the same price they were a few years back? And it is not just manafacturing moving overseas that drops prices, it can be any business process.

If you can get someone overseas to run your back office more efficiently and cost effectively or internal reporting or whatever then you can pass on those cost savings to your customers (or maintain your profits.)

Cars are hugely cheaper than they used to be. You can’t just look at the price, what you have to compare is what you are getting for your money. Compare even a ‘crappy’ car from today to an ‘expensive’ model from 10 years ago and today’s crappy car has a huge number of safety and luxury features that were not even available on your expensive car 10 years ago.

How are you going to manage to buy only American? Very few products or services have no component or process operated overseas.[/quote]

Unfortunately, it is not always possible to buy 100% American, however there are oppotunities. there are websites one can use find USA made items. Also, even though a product may not be 100%, 50% is better than 0%. With the 50%, at least there are more jobs produced than with 0%.

23

[quote]shookers wrote:
Smoot-Hawley Tariffs were one of the primary causes of the great depression. Look it up.

Products are made PRECISELY where it makes sense to make them. If businesses thought it made sense to manufacturer in America, they would. If it wasn’t cheaper (or more profitable) to make products in foreign countries, businesses wouldn’t do it.

Besides, barriers to free trade are unnecessary violations of my freedom[/quote]

I have never heard of those tariffs, but I did look them up a little. Them being one of the “primary” reasons is a considerable overstatment. In fact, what I found from Britannica.com is “The Fordney-McCumber tariff prompted retaliation from European governments but did little to dampen U.S. prosperity.” Ok, we got retaliation; that comes from anything we do, but “it did little to dampen U.S. prosperity.”

I am not looking for tariffs or governmental interference in the least bit. In reference to my first post, it should be the responsibility of the US consumers.

24

Cockney,

I didn’t say computers were the same price as they were a few years back. I said that I haven’t noticed a product that was made in the US, then got its manufacturing moved to another country, suddenly become cheaper. Big difference.

Shookers,

I realize they move manufacturing to other countries because it’s cheaper. I get that. However, one of my points is that all that should be considered? If a product can easily be manufactured in any country, should a company then look for the country that has the least amount of pollution, labor, and human rights laws? That country would give them that country most advantage, after all. Who cares if they are employing 6 year olds?

Also, I’m not advocating tariffs or government protectionism.

25

“I am not looking for tariffs or governmental interference in the least bit. In reference to my first post, it should be the responsibility of the US consumers.”

I agree with this. I don’t condone government tariffs either.

I can choose to base my buying decisions on anything I want, and if enough people do, companies will listen. For instance, if everyone started buying only motorcycles with sidecars big enough to carry a cow, pretty soon, a lot more motorcycles would come with cow-sized sidecars.

My money is the only real vote I have.

26

And thanks for the reading suggestions.

27

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
There are a number of reasons for the horrible economy in which America finds itself in today, but the number one reason is the lack of jobs.

The reason for lack of jobs again is for a few reasons, but the main reason is outsourcing. I do not blame outsourcing on the business execs or politicians allowing it to happen. The blame needs to be placed on the American people for buying those products that are made in other countries. This in turn chiefly blames the American people for its own economic peril.

I have heard many reasons why people buy the products of other countries and they are completely unfounded, especially the one about foreign products being cheaper. If one was to do a little research, they would find the same products made in the States as foreign countries to resemble each other. Americans just don’t care and now we are paying for it.

If Americans want to turn the economy around, we need to be responsible to our selves and buy the products we make.

Why arbitrarily draw the line at Americas borders?

Why not the US?

Why not your state?

Why not your city, your block, your family, you alone?

If what you are proposing really made sense, everyone should grow his own food, make his own clothes, build his own house and so on., thereby maximizing his wealth.

Since that is clearly a recipe for disaster, what makes you think that any step in that direction could make America better off?

America would be better for the fact that more jobs would be created by purchasing American made products. An economy is strong because people have jobs, which is not the situation at this time[/quote]

100% wrong.

28

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
There are a number of reasons for the horrible economy in which America finds itself in today, but the number one reason is the lack of jobs.

The reason for lack of jobs again is for a few reasons, but the main reason is outsourcing. I do not blame outsourcing on the business execs or politicians allowing it to happen. The blame needs to be placed on the American people for buying those products that are made in other countries. This in turn chiefly blames the American people for its own economic peril.

I have heard many reasons why people buy the products of other countries and they are completely unfounded, especially the one about foreign products being cheaper. If one was to do a little research, they would find the same products made in the States as foreign countries to resemble each other. Americans just don’t care and now we are paying for it.

If Americans want to turn the economy around, we need to be responsible to our selves and buy the products we make.

Why arbitrarily draw the line at Americas borders?

Why not the US?

Why not your state?

Why not your city, your block, your family, you alone?

If what you are proposing really made sense, everyone should grow his own food, make his own clothes, build his own house and so on., thereby maximizing his wealth.

Since that is clearly a recipe for disaster, what makes you think that any step in that direction could make America better off?

America would be better for the fact that more jobs would be created by purchasing American made products. An economy is strong because people have jobs, which is not the situation at this time

No, people have jobs because an economy is strong and not the other way around. Your idea will hardly strengthen your economy.

Then, you are a member of the WTO. Not only would you lose any credibility you have left if you start to dabble in protectionism if it suits you, you would also need to start a trade war with the EU and Japan which you cannot win.

An economy is strong because people have jobs; jobs make an economy strong. It is a cycle. How will people have jobs if manufacturing does not happen domestically? [/quote]

You need to start by reading some very basic material on economics. You are so far off, it’s hard to know where to start. Don’t feel bad, most americans have no knowledge of basic economics. That is not a dig. Here are some very good books that I think you will really enjoy.

Basic Economics - Thomas Sowell
Applied Economics - Thomas Sowell
Economic Fact and Fallacies - Thomas Sowell
Economics in One Lesson - Henry Haslett
Free to Chose - Milton Friedman

I would read them in this order. They are all good books but Sowell uses many more real world examples. This is really all you’ll need for this discussion. If this gets you interested to can check out Adam Smith, Hayak, Von Mises, Rothbard, etc.

29

[quote]dhickey wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
orion wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
There are a number of reasons for the horrible economy in which America finds itself in today, but the number one reason is the lack of jobs.

The reason for lack of jobs again is for a few reasons, but the main reason is outsourcing. I do not blame outsourcing on the business execs or politicians allowing it to happen. The blame needs to be placed on the American people for buying those products that are made in other countries. This in turn chiefly blames the American people for its own economic peril.

I have heard many reasons why people buy the products of other countries and they are completely unfounded, especially the one about foreign products being cheaper. If one was to do a little research, they would find the same products made in the States as foreign countries to resemble each other. Americans just don’t care and now we are paying for it.

If Americans want to turn the economy around, we need to be responsible to our selves and buy the products we make.

Why arbitrarily draw the line at Americas borders?

Why not the US?

Why not your state?

Why not your city, your block, your family, you alone?

If what you are proposing really made sense, everyone should grow his own food, make his own clothes, build his own house and so on., thereby maximizing his wealth.

Since that is clearly a recipe for disaster, what makes you think that any step in that direction could make America better off?

America would be better for the fact that more jobs would be created by purchasing American made products. An economy is strong because people have jobs, which is not the situation at this time

100% wrong.[/quote]

Explain.

30

You want to kick start the economy you could do some very basic things.

End all protectionism.
Shred the farm bill - redundant.
Eliminate all tax and move to a flat sales tax with no exemptions.
Eliminate minimum wage.
Eliminate protection of obsolete labor unions.
Ban labor unions for gov’t jobs.
Fix education. Vouchers would be a start.

This is good start. Our economy would be better than it ever has been in no time

31

Jobs are a symptom of a strong economy, not the cause.

32

[quote]shookers wrote:
Jobs are a symptom of a strong economy, not the cause.[/quote]

It is a direct relationship

So what you are saying is first there is good economy, then comes the jobs. Is that correct?

33

[quote]dhickey wrote:
You want to kick start the economy you could do some very basic things.

End all protectionism.
Shred the farm bill - redundant.
Eliminate all tax and move to a flat sales tax with no exemptions.
Eliminate minimum wage.
Eliminate protection of obsolete labor unions.
Ban labor unions for gov’t jobs.
Fix education. Vouchers would be a start.

This is good start. Our economy would be better than it ever has been in no time [/quote]

I would not disagree with this (though I am not familiar with the farm bill). We still need jobs for people to have money.
Also you did not explain why it is wrong.

34

We have to think for you?

What if every country “bought nationally”. Think of the consequences.

35

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
shookers wrote:
Jobs are a symptom of a strong economy, not the cause.

It is a direct relationship

So what you are saying is first there is good economy, then comes the jobs. Is that correct? [/quote]

Jobs are created when people make money - and want to make more money, not the other way around

36

[quote]suruppak wrote:
Cockney,

I didn’t say computers were the same price as they were a few years back. I said that I haven’t noticed a product that was made in the US, then got its manufacturing moved to another country, suddenly become cheaper. Big difference.

Shookers,

I realize they move manufacturing to other countries because it’s cheaper. I get that. However, one of my points is that all that should be considered? If a product can easily be manufactured in any country, should a company then look for the country that has the least amount of pollution, labor, and human rights laws? That country would give them that country most advantage, after all. Who cares if they are employing 6 year olds?

Also, I’m not advocating tariffs or government protectionism.[/quote]

But a lot more of parts and services behind a computer are now centralised and offshore and this is one of the reasons that you can buy a notebook for a couple of hundred dollars today.

Cars, I have explained that the cost maybe didn’t drop but you get more for your money.

Other products where the price may not have dropped, the company has been able to stay in business where otherwise it might have failed. Maybe the increase in price has been slower than it would have been if everything had stayed in the US.

37

[quote]suruppak wrote:
“I am not looking for tariffs or governmental interference in the least bit. In reference to my first post, it should be the responsibility of the US consumers.”

I agree with this. I don’t condone government tariffs either.

I can choose to base my buying decisions on anything I want, and if enough people do, companies will listen. For instance, if everyone started buying only motorcycles with sidecars big enough to carry a cow, pretty soon, a lot more motorcycles would come with cow-sized sidecars.

My money is the only real vote I have.[/quote]

OK great, list a car manufacturer, a computer manufactorer, and insurance provider and a bank that are 100% American and have no part of the product or service run or built overseas.

38

[quote]shookers wrote:
J Eldred wrote:
shookers wrote:
Jobs are a symptom of a strong economy, not the cause.

It is a direct relationship

So what you are saying is first there is good economy, then comes the jobs. Is that correct?

Jobs are created when people make money - and want to make more money, not the other way around[/quote]

Jobs are not created when people make money. Jobs are created when people spend the money they make, and spend it wisely.

39

[quote]shookers wrote:
We have to think for you?

What if every country “bought nationally”. Think of the consequences.[/quote]

What would be the consequences? Other countries don’t buy that much from the US, and what do we need from other countries we cannot do ourselves?
It seems the US did just fine before there was a global economy.

40

[quote]J Eldred wrote:
shookers wrote:
We have to think for you?

What if every country “bought nationally”. Think of the consequences.

What would be the consequences? Other countries don’t buy that much from the US, and what do we need from other countries we cannot do ourselves?
It seems the US did just fine before there was a global economy.[/quote]

Please tell me that this is sarcasm!

US exports are vital to your economy and if you are fine with no imports then I hope you don’t like using your cell phone for one.