I have seen a number of reports that this murderer didn’t even write these books.
They were “co-authored” by someone else.
I do not know if the co-author is in prison or not, but it strikes me as wrong that a murderer can get someone to co-author books for him in prison.
If we are going to have the death penalty this asshole should get it.
prof
to what do you attribute the fact that there could be more good done by staying the execution. Because of the expected violence by gangs upon his death? Are we to be held captive by groups of murdorous thugs each and every time we as a country try to carry out the justice handed down in a court of law.
I think you’re playing with fire here. I’m not so sure any book has that kind of power to it. I don’t think kids are so easily persuaded. And if we are going to give into terrorist demnands on how we adjudicate justice, Pandora will forever be over us.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
In my honest opinion, the possibility of greater good outweighs the act of putting someone to death for retribution. I’m not trying to downplay what he did at all.
I wouldn’t mind if they made him wear a shirt that read “I killed people” or got the victims’ names tattooed on his forehead…but killing just for the sake of carrying out a penalty seems barbaric.
I would hate to be Arnold S. as far as this decision. The weird thing is, he may be the one politician that I believe we have less of a chance for a decision being made strictly for political reasons. I could be wrong about him, but that’s the way I have viewed up to this point. I’ll go with whatever he decides on this one.[/quote]
Gov. Schwarzenegger has an ugly task ahead of him, no doubt. It’s one thing to talk about the death penalty and yet another to know you completely have the power of life and death in your hands. I cannot even imagine it.
This case has certainly challenged me because while I’m against the death penalty, I find Tookie’s crimes to be heinous. But then I ask myself… if I am not willing to defend my belief when tested against one of the more extreme cases, then what good is it?
In the end, I guess I must be on the clemency side, but it’s not as if I feel overly good about it.
Here’s to hoping that if clemency is granted, the greater good is somehow better served.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
prof
to what do you attribute the fact that there could be more good done by staying the execution. Because of the expected violence by gangs upon his death?[/quote]
Not at all. You may not be aware of this, but while most gang activity is frowned upon, to youth growing up in areas where it is very active, it is the only way they know. They will doubtfully listen to anyone who has not at least come from the same background in terms of avoiding certain life choices. This isn’t about being afraid of gang backlash. It is about finally realizing that your priorities are not the same as someone who grew up poor in a neighborhood with gang activity and no other role models to show alternatives.
[quote]
I think you’re playing with fire here. I’m not so sure any book has that kind of power to it. I don’t think kids are so easily persuaded. And if we are going to give into terrorist demnands on how we adjudicate justice, Pandora will forever be over us.[/quote]
You clearly went on a tangent that no one even eluded to. Kids base their perception on their role models, peers and guardians. If you corrupt all of those, what choices do they have? Who are they more likely to listen to? Someone from their similar background, or someone completely unrelated who never experienced anything like what they have?
At least given an execution, he’ll sell more kids books. The family can donate the money to help out kids w/ causes like " Sponsoring an ex-crip " or " bloods and crips dance: We cool now "
Tookie lives man, keep it real y’all
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I have seen a number of reports that this murderer didn’t even write these books.
They were “co-authored” by someone else.
I do not know if the co-author is in prison or not, but it strikes me as wrong that a murderer can get someone to co-author books for him in prison.
If we are going to have the death penalty this asshole should get it.[/quote]
On a sidenote he can not profit from his books. That aside I do believe people can change. The problem I have with the whole situation is when asked to renounce the CRIP gang and give up members he refused. If you denounce something and preach against it wouldn’t you do what it takes to see the downfall of that entity. I understand that if he “RATS” he is a mark for others to hit, but in max security death row he has no interaction with others. I do think we need to consider the victims families and see how this act tore them apart. Why should he be allowed to live when he decided that he was going to take 4 lives. He may have changed and this may be 20+ years old but the penalty the state imposes is what he gets. Even reformed gang bangers have to take responsibility for their actions. I will say this much, a life sentence in prison is a much harsher sentence than the death penalty in my eyes. Having worked in a prison, in a jail and being a street cop and seeing what I see, if faced with the choice I would not want to live a miserable depressed controlled life for 50 years. Whether he lives or dies makes no difference to me.
The Bible also says “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed:” (Genesis 9:6)
Certain crimes are simply not redeemable. Murdering innocent people is one of them.
As this case goes to show, no many how many liberal, prick, egomaniacal celebrities on a quest to save the world there are, theres always one Conservative with a bigger ego and bigger bicepts standing in there way. Arnie, that a boy.
[quote]dean12345 wrote:
As this case goes to show, no many how many liberal, prick, egomaniacal celebrities on a quest to save the world there are, theres always one Conservative with a bigger ego and bigger bicepts standing in there way. Arnie, that a boy. [/quote]
I think he might possibly elect to give life in prison for the guy to help himself out politically.
Certainly some people on death row deserve to not be on it but these types of discussion ( like OJ or karla fay tucker ) usually come from the worst examples
[quote]HardcoreHorn wrote:
The Bible also says “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed:” (Genesis 9:6)
Certain crimes are simply not redeemable. Murdering innocent people is one of them.
[/quote]
I love when people quote the Bible(or Torah and Koran for that matter) to justify the horrors of man.
Please try to remember that the Bible is a book written by Man, not GOD. The stories are metaphors. These same men that wrote the bible are responsible for the crusades. They wrote it to coincide with the lifestyles they deemed virtuous and beneficial at the time. Judging by history, they were savages then and haven’t progressed much today.
Now, before anybody jumps on me about this, I very much try to adhere to the teachings of all of our great religious leaders, including Jesus. True closeness to God is achieved with mercy and compassion, not greed and vengance. God cannot be found in a storybook, but in each of us. Let us act like we remember that.
[quote]AZMojo wrote:
HardcoreHorn wrote:
The Bible also says “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed:” (Genesis 9:6)
Certain crimes are simply not redeemable. Murdering innocent people is one of them.
I love when people quote the Bible(or Torah and Koran for that matter) to justify the horrors of man.
Please try to remember that the Bible is a book written by Man, not GOD. The stories are metaphors. These same men that wrote the bible are responsible for the crusades. They wrote it to coincide with the lifestyles they deemed virtuous and beneficial at the time. Judging by history, they were savages then and haven’t progressed much today.
Now, before anybody jumps on me about this, I very much try to adhere to the teachings of all of our great religious leaders, including Jesus. True closeness to God is achieved with mercy and compassion, not greed and vengance. God cannot be found in a storybook, but in each of us. Let us act like we remember that.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t have gone as far as you did, but the passage quoted from the Bible isn’t directly speaking of doling out punishment to those who kill by killing them. It is more along the lines of “live by the sword, die by the sword”, meaning you reap what you sow. To take that passage as a justification for retribution would leave major gaps in logic.
Does this mean every solider involved in our current war should die if they take a life? Chapter 9 seems to be referring to the circle of life and man’s placement in the food chain, not a direct go ahead to kill people who you find guilty of murder. This is yet another reason why verses shouldn’t be looked at out of context and can often be twisted to fit the different goals of whoever quotes them.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I wouldn’t have gone as far as you did, but the passage quoted from the Bible isn’t directly speaking of doling out punishment to those who kill by killing them. It is more along the lines of “live by the sword, die by the sword”, meaning you reap what you sow. To take that passage as a justification for retribution would leave major gaps in logic.
Does this mean every solider involved in our current war should die if they take a life? Chapter 9 seems to be referring to the circle of life and man’s placement in the food chain, not a direct go ahead to kill people who you find guilty of murder. This is yet another reason why verses shouldn’t be looked at out of context and can often be twisted to fit the different goals of whoever quotes them.[/quote]
Maybe I did get a little carried away on this, but I do believe the idea is correct, i.e. that people hide behind religion to justify inhuman behavior.
The verses of the Bible are a translation by Man, or more specifically the church. I believe that the church, being a most powerful political entity(as it is today) altered the Word to better control the populace. At least that’s the effect it had.
I try to find the common denominators in all religions, and there are many. These are likely the true way to God. The rest is just fluff. In my opinion.
P.S., I’m not buying that God put all the Earth’s creatures here for our use, as stated in Genesis, considering the Earth and it’s creatures were here long before Man.
[quote]AZMojo wrote:
P.S., I’m not buying that God put all the Earth’s creatures here for our use, as stated in Genesis, considering the Earth and it’s creatures were here long before Man. [/quote]
It doesn’t say they only exist for our use. Based on resources and ingenuity, we are placed at the top of the food chain on this planet even though many animals (and insects) could easily kill us individually.
LA: VIOLENCE FEARS OVER TOOKIE EXECUTION…
Council Members Urge Calm Over ‘Tookie’ Williams Decisions
POSTED: 2:13 pm PST December 9, 2005
LOS ANGELES – Four Los Angeles City Council members called for calm Friday as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger considers whether to grant clemency to Crips co-founder and death row inmate Stanley “Tookie” Williams.
With less than four days to go before Williams’ scheduled Tuesday execution, sporadic-yet-credible threats of civil unrest have prompted the council members and representatives from the city and county human relations commissions to ask religious leaders to emphasize a message of peace during weekend services.
“We picked up information that led us to believe that there were some planned and intentioned acts of violence that could occur in the wake of the decision or the execution planned for Stan “Tookie” Williams,” Robin Toma, executive director of the Los Angeles County Human Relations Commission, said during a news conference at City Hall.
Toma declined to list the affected communities or elaborate on the threats.
Councilman Bernard Parks said he spoke earlier today about potential civil unrest with Los Angeles Police Department Deputy Chief Earl Paysinger of the South Bureau.
Parks said Paysinger assured him the LAPD would remain “vigilant” this weekend, but there was no immediate need to put the city on tactical alert.
“All you need is a few to disrupt the entire city,” Parks said, referring to the events that led to the 1992 riots. “You don’t need large numbers of people to start a problem.”
Parks, along with council members Jan Perry, Herb Wesson and Bill Rosendahl, said they are asking religious leaders to deliver a message of peace in the days leading up to Williams’ scheduled lethal injection execution at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday at San Quentin Prison.
“Regardless of your personal views on Mr. Williams’ situation, I believe we all share a desire to ensure that people find outlets in which they can respectfully and positively voice their opinions,” Perry said. “I believe that our religious institutions provide guidance and leadership to thousands in our community, and it is times like these that we must turn to each other for support.”
Williams, now 51, was sentenced to deathin 1981 after he was found guilty of murdering four people during two separate robberies two years earlier.
Williams has maintained his innocence.
Attorneys for Williams and the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office each delivered 30 minutes of arguments to the governor yesterday, with prosecutors insisting that Williams deserved to die for the slayings and defense lawyers arguing that he has renounced gang violence.
The governor could issue a decision at any time.
If granted clemency, Williams would serve life in prison without parole.
In California, only the governor has the authority to commute a death sentence to life in prison. Ronald Reagan was the last California governor to grant clemency in 1967.
If clemency is denied, Parks said he will ask religious leaders to open their churches and synagogues for community discussions.
Rosendahl added: “I’m standing here as a white guy that represents the 11th District who realizes it impacts all of us, we’re all in this dialogue together. In my district, black and white and brown and Asian together are mixing and discussing this issue. It’s of great concern to all of us.”
The Crips street gang, founded in 1971 in South Central Los Angeles, went on to become one of the most violent and widespread in the United States.
Family members of Williams’ victims say he should be put to death for his actions.
But Williams’s supporters say he has reformed because he spent much of the past 24 years writing children’s books and teaching at-risk youth about the dangers of gangs. Supporters also have nominated him for Nobel prizes, for peace and in literature.
“For those who believe in redemption, they should remember that for the past 13 years, Mr. Williams has been talking about peace, not violence,” Councilman Herb Wesson said. “I think the biggest tribute they could pay to him is to ensure that whatever happens … they should be respectful to how he lived his life for the last 13 years.”
Since being condemned to death, Williams has renounced his gang past, been the subject of a cable TV movie called “Redemption” starring Jamie Foxx. He was nominated in 2000 for a Nobel Peace Prize by Swiss Parliament member Mario Fehr for the anti-gang work he has done from his 9-by-4-foot cell.
Calls for clemency have been mounting from religious and community leaders and celebrities such as Foxx, the rapper Snoop Dogg, actor Mike Farrell and activist Bianca Jagger.
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People President Bruce Gordon also supports clemency, calling Williams “our secret weapon to help young African-Americans avoid gangs.”
He killed 4 people! Don’t forget that little fact!
Tookie" set his example. Now let the system show the end result of what happens when you join a gang and murder people.
This ‘role model’ set back the black community for generations by forming the crips (not to mention the hundreds if not thousands that were murdered across the US for wearing the wrong color). If common sense were a factor in this debate, the blacks should riot if they don’t execute him. If the blacks riot over the execution of this piece of shit, it will destroy the image of black america for a very long time. I will never understand why blacks make role models of such scumbags.
This Tookie should be fried into a Pookie!!!
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Kuz wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Minister Tony Muhammad
Western regional minister for the Nation of Islam and a leader of the community and antiracist struggle in Los Angeles
THIS IS a young man who I have met with Minister Farrakhan. Not only did we get a chance to hear from him, but we also had a chance to observe a redeemed human being–a restored human being.
He is a man who I know is not a fake. If you are a fake, you cannot redeem others. Stan Tookie Williams has done more to redeem young men and women in urban cities in America and around the world–to get them out of a life of gang-banging, to get them out of a life of ill-repute–than many people who are free.
The Bible says you can tell a tree by the fruit that it bears, and you can tell a man by his work. His work is outstanding. He has also professed, ?I am innocent of the crimes I have been charged for, but I am guilty of some other things that I have done that I didn?t get caught for.?
I have visited almost 20 of the 33 state prisons in California. There is no atmosphere of rehabilitation. For someone like Tookie Williams to conquer his demons on death row, to use his life to reach out and save the lives of others, to be a five-time Nobel Peace Prize nominee–that is a redeemed man.
I have seen his works. I have seen real-life gang members–hardened criminals–hear his work and have tears rolling down their face.
And if we are going to try Stan for starting the Crips, than let?s also try the Los Angeles Police Department for their crimes. They don?t have a very good track record.
Stan Tookie Williams deserves clemency.
While your two posts make some good arguments overall, I wouldn’t exactly use Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam to make my case for anything.
Hey I am just trying to show the other side. Not everyone looks at it as we do. As I said, I am not for the death penalty, and I think he can do more good being alive and saying what he says, and so I do want him to get clemecy. I’m not saying ever release him, but some good can out of what is obviously not a stand up citizen. And Jesus, if you didn’t know I was a “bleeding heart liberal” before, then you haven’t read enough of my posts ;)[/quote]
No, I knew the bleeding heart liberal part. LOL I just hate to: (1) throw around the “you’re a liberal!” line since it always seems so lame (and non-descriptive too since I read on another thread you are not into handgun control); and (2) I hear your point, I am against the death penalty too, but Farrakhan and the rest of the Nation of Islam make my skin crawl. About as anti-Semitic as they come.
This man has never cooperated with the police in order to rid society of the same gang members and criminals that he is supposedly saving children from – he says he made a promise to God he would never be a snitch.
He has never repented of his crimes - he maintains his claims of innocence on each of the four counts for which he was actually convicted – though I don’t know if he maintains he’s never murdered anyone else. He was convicted on four separate counts of murder.
When an accomplice asked Williams why he had shot Owens, the clerk at the 7-11 they were robbing who was the victim in the first count for which Williams was convicted, Williams explained that he didn’t want to leave any witnesses. The accomplice would also later testify that Williams told him he killed Owens “because he was white and he was killing all white people.”
Williams had shot out the security camera with a shotgun, and, with Owens lying face-down on the floor, had fired two shotgun blasts into his back. Both were fatal, according to the coroner.
Later that day, Williams bragged to his brother about killing Owens. He said, “[Y]ou should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him” and then Williams made gurgling noises.
The four robbers had been smoking PCP, and the robbery netted $120.00.
Less than two weeks later, Williams went to the Brookhaven Motel at 10411 South Vermont Avenue, less than a ten-minute drive due east from Los Angeles International Airport. After breaking into the motel’s office, Williams shot and killed 76-year-old Yen-I Yang and his 63-year-old wife, Tsai-Shai Yang. Next he killed their daughter, 43-year-old Yee-Chen Lin. As in the Owens killing, the murder weapon was a 12-gauge shotgun. The take in this crime was about $100.
All four victims were shot while defenseless, and offering no resistance.
In prison before and during the trial, Williams wrote notes about planning to escape by utilizing a shot gun that a female had obtained for him and would somehow deliver to him while he was in transport between jail and court, and then blowing up the bus so that police wouldn’t know who had escaped, and planning to kill one of the witnesses against him, one of the co-robbers in the Owens slaying.
After a guilty verdict was rendered against Williams, he is recorded to have threatened the jurors, specifically mouting he was “going to get every one of you motherfuckers,” which was corroborated by multiple jurors.
The evidence against Williams is strong, including ballistics, testimony and self-incriminating statements.
So, in the end, while he may have become a co-author of children’s books, the fact that he is unrepentant for his actions and the fact he refuses to work with police to actually take other criminals off of the street argue strongly against any idea that Tookie Williams is deserving of clemency.
[quote]littlericky wrote:
LA: VIOLENCE FEARS OVER TOOKIE EXECUTION…
Council Members Urge Calm Over ‘Tookie’ Williams Decisions
POSTED: 2:13 pm PST December 9, 2005
LOS ANGELES – Four Los Angeles City Council members called for calm Friday as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger considers whether to grant clemency to Crips co-founder and death row inmate Stanley “Tookie” Williams.
With less than four days to go before Williams’ scheduled Tuesday execution, sporadic-yet-credible threats of civil unrest have prompted the council members and representatives from the city and county human relations commissions to ask religious leaders to emphasize a message of peace during weekend services.
“We picked up information that led us to believe that there were some planned and intentioned acts of violence that could occur in the wake of the decision or the execution planned for Stan “Tookie” Williams,” Robin Toma, executive director of the Los Angeles County Human Relations Commission, said during a news conference at City Hall.
Toma declined to list the affected communities or elaborate on the threats.
Councilman Bernard Parks said he spoke earlier today about potential civil unrest with Los Angeles Police Department Deputy Chief Earl Paysinger of the South Bureau.
Parks said Paysinger assured him the LAPD would remain “vigilant” this weekend, but there was no immediate need to put the city on tactical alert.
“All you need is a few to disrupt the entire city,” Parks said, referring to the events that led to the 1992 riots. “You don’t need large numbers of people to start a problem.”
Parks, along with council members Jan Perry, Herb Wesson and Bill Rosendahl, said they are asking religious leaders to deliver a message of peace in the days leading up to Williams’ scheduled lethal injection execution at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday at San Quentin Prison.
“Regardless of your personal views on Mr. Williams’ situation, I believe we all share a desire to ensure that people find outlets in which they can respectfully and positively voice their opinions,” Perry said. “I believe that our religious institutions provide guidance and leadership to thousands in our community, and it is times like these that we must turn to each other for support.”
Williams, now 51, was sentenced to deathin 1981 after he was found guilty of murdering four people during two separate robberies two years earlier.
Williams has maintained his innocence.
Attorneys for Williams and the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office each delivered 30 minutes of arguments to the governor yesterday, with prosecutors insisting that Williams deserved to die for the slayings and defense lawyers arguing that he has renounced gang violence.
The governor could issue a decision at any time.
If granted clemency, Williams would serve life in prison without parole.
In California, only the governor has the authority to commute a death sentence to life in prison. Ronald Reagan was the last California governor to grant clemency in 1967.
If clemency is denied, Parks said he will ask religious leaders to open their churches and synagogues for community discussions.
Rosendahl added: “I’m standing here as a white guy that represents the 11th District who realizes it impacts all of us, we’re all in this dialogue together. In my district, black and white and brown and Asian together are mixing and discussing this issue. It’s of great concern to all of us.”
The Crips street gang, founded in 1971 in South Central Los Angeles, went on to become one of the most violent and widespread in the United States.
Family members of Williams’ victims say he should be put to death for his actions.
But Williams’s supporters say he has reformed because he spent much of the past 24 years writing children’s books and teaching at-risk youth about the dangers of gangs. Supporters also have nominated him for Nobel prizes, for peace and in literature.
“For those who believe in redemption, they should remember that for the past 13 years, Mr. Williams has been talking about peace, not violence,” Councilman Herb Wesson said. “I think the biggest tribute they could pay to him is to ensure that whatever happens … they should be respectful to how he lived his life for the last 13 years.”
Since being condemned to death, Williams has renounced his gang past, been the subject of a cable TV movie called “Redemption” starring Jamie Foxx. He was nominated in 2000 for a Nobel Peace Prize by Swiss Parliament member Mario Fehr for the anti-gang work he has done from his 9-by-4-foot cell.
Calls for clemency have been mounting from religious and community leaders and celebrities such as Foxx, the rapper Snoop Dogg, actor Mike Farrell and activist Bianca Jagger.
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People President Bruce Gordon also supports clemency, calling Williams “our secret weapon to help young African-Americans avoid gangs.”[/quote]
ProfX
Was this the ‘tangent’ I described that you weren’t aware of?
I believe if clemency is granted it will be soley on the media hyping this potential. The liberal media wants to stop the use of the death penalty and are using this as a tool.
I just fail to see the great things people see this man doing. I could be wrong, and life is just that, life. Then again, he didn’t assign much value to human life.
Interestingly enough their is another thread currently going on about choices and decisions. Past or no past, moral peers or not, what some would call a fair chance in life or not, he chose to take several innocent lives. I think it’s not that outrageous in this case to pay the ultimate price for his
choices.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
ProfX
Was this the ‘tangent’ I described that you weren’t aware of?
I believe if clemency is granted it will be soley on the media hyping this potential. The liberal media wants to stop the use of the death penalty and are using this as a tool.
I just fail to see the great things people see this man doing. I could be wrong, and life is just that, life. Then again, he didn’t assign much value to human life.
Interestingly enough their is another thread currently going on about choices and decisions. Past or no past, moral peers or not, what some would call a fair chance in life or not, he chose to take several innocent lives. I think it’s not that outrageous in this case to pay the ultimate price for his
choices.[/quote]
Where did I write that I was unaware of that position? My post was referring to you bringing up something that I didn’t write. If you are asking my opinion, no, worrying about the retalliation of street gangs should not be the soul reason for taking away the death penalty for this man. I am also not ignoring the murders, especially since I do believe I have mentioned them in nearly every response I’ve made. If it were up to me, I wouldn’t put the man to death by my own actions…the same choice Governor S. has to make. I wouldn’t want that on my conscience as far as deciding the fate of a man. I personally don’t know the guy and can only go by what I hear through the media JUST LIKE YOU. The only thing we do know for sure is that he killed people and, over the last 30 years, is supposedly against it. I would hope the death penalty would be used for those who have no hope of rehabilitation, not simply something we do for the act of murder.
The issue has always been THIRTY YEARS.
I can see both sides of this issue. That is why I wrote that whatever Arnold S. goes with, I will respect his decision. I am wondering if you could say the same if he chooses to let the man live.