The Fate of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
184

[quote]Professor X wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
ProfX

Was this the ‘tangent’ I described that you weren’t aware of?

I believe if clemency is granted it will be soley on the media hyping this potential. The liberal media wants to stop the use of the death penalty and are using this as a tool.

I just fail to see the great things people see this man doing. I could be wrong, and life is just that, life. Then again, he didn’t assign much value to human life.

Interestingly enough their is another thread currently going on about choices and decisions. Past or no past, moral peers or not, what some would call a fair chance in life or not, he chose to take several innocent lives. I think it’s not that outrageous in this case to pay the ultimate price for his
choices.

Where did I write that I was unaware of that position? My post was referring to you bringing up something that I didn’t write. If you are asking my opinion, no, worrying about the retalliation of street gangs should not be the soul reason for taking away the death penalty for this man. I am also not ignoring the murders, especially since I do believe I have mentioned them in nearly every response I’ve made. If it were up to me, I wouldn’t put the man to death by my own actions…the same choice Governor S. has to make. I wouldn’t want that on my conscience as far as deciding the fate of a man. I personally don’t know the guy and can only go by what I hear through the media JUST LIKE YOU. The only thing we do know for sure is that he killed people and, over the last 30 years, is supposedly against it. I would hope the death penalty would be used for those who have no hope of rehabilitation, not simply something we do for the act of murder.

The issue has always been THIRTY YEARS.

I can see both sides of this issue. That is why I wrote that whatever Arnold S. goes with, I will respect his decision. I am wondering if you could say the same if he chooses to let the man live. [/quote]

I’m not sure why you are attacking, but let me answer the same way I have stated in each of my posts.

They didn’t wait 30 years to kill him, that’s just the system, so quit using it as some excuse in each and every post.

Arnold is not putting the man to death by his own actions. Far from it. Tookie committed the crime and the justice system adjudicated the punishment. It actually has very little to do with Arnold, or any previous gov. for the past 30 years.

How do we decide who is capable of rehabilitation? Who now gets to decide that. Is Scott Peterson? Is Charles Manson? I don’t know, do you?

I have mentioned often what my view is. I would put him to death. It matters very little to me if he spends the rest of his life in a 9x4 cell. To me the death poenalty would be easier. It certainly won’t affect my feelings of the position of gov. of the state of Calif. I could actually care less about Arnold. He’s a fake and a sellout. But that’s another thread.

185 
I'm not a supporter of the the death penalty. But if that's the law, then this mutt has to be killed. He is the founding member of a huge gang. He hasn't displayed and remorse or admitted his guilt. The death penalty happens to be the law. He shouldn't recieve a lesser punishment than others have just because of some books and speeches.
186

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
They didn’t wait 30 years to kill him, that’s just the system, so quit using it as some excuse in each and every post.[/quote]

If “the system” allows someone to sit on death row for 30 years, then there is the possibility of reform over that time. Why completely ignore that? Do you honestly believe all of the people in jail for life are all better people and Tookie is the worst?

[quote]
Arnold is not putting the man to death by his own actions. Far from it. Tookie committed the crime and the justice system adjudicated the punishment. It actually has very little to do with Arnold, or any previous gov. for the past 30 years.[/quote]

No shit. You are acting as if I don’t understand how the system works. It will still be looked at as if Arnold had the power to act. His action or inaction will still be viewed as a political move. Why pretend otherwise?

[quote]
How do we decide who is capable of rehabilitation? Who now gets to decide that. Is Scott Peterson? Is Charles Manson? I don’t know, do you? [/quote]

Shouldn’t that be the job of social workers, the jail system and psychologists?

Again, there are people who are much more of a threat to society who are not on death row. There are child abductors not on death row. My only point is that if someone is allowed by the system to exist for decades on end, then it does open the door to the possibility of reform. Jumping in the “Kill 'EM!!” line just to go along with the flow shouldn’t take the place of considering this.

Further, you weren’t attacked at all in that previous post. You were responded to.

That’s my opinion and I stand by it.

187

So you’re against the death penalty for a convicted 4 time murderer. I am for it.

We’ll agree to disagree.

I don’t think you ‘reform’ from being a cold-blooded killer. I would say the same about many other heinous crimes.

I guess you’re just more forgiving than I am.

188

X: just because they may benefit society by leading people from gangs it doesn’t excuse their pastb behaivor. For example a dictator type that launched a repressive regime and killed lots of people gets saved all of a sudden and finds god. Well, you still have to pay for your crime. I agree w/ your point that we may benefit from his release HOWEVER, we can’t arbitrarily make this decision for everybody b/c letting people out " because its a good thing " would violate the law.

189

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
X: just because they may benefit society by leading people from gangs it doesn’t excuse their pastb behaivor. For example a dictator type that launched a repressive regime and killed lots of people gets saved all of a sudden and finds god. Well, you still have to pay for your crime. I agree w/ your point that we may benefit from his release HOWEVER, we can’t arbitrarily make this decision for everybody b/c letting people out " because its a good thing " would violate the law.
[/quote]

Release? Excused from past behavior? Do you really understand what the subject matter is? No one is talking about freeing this guy. No one is saying he is done paying for his crime. The only debate is between KILLING him on Tuesday or letting him spend the rest of his life behind bars. No one is “excusing” what he did at all. This debate is about the death penalty and the use of it.

Honestly, was anyone else confused about this?

190

[quote]Professor X wrote:
thabigdon24 wrote:
X: just because they may benefit society by leading people from gangs it doesn’t excuse their pastb behaivor. For example a dictator type that launched a repressive regime and killed lots of people gets saved all of a sudden and finds god. Well, you still have to pay for your crime. I agree w/ your point that we may benefit from his release HOWEVER, we can’t arbitrarily make this decision for everybody b/c letting people out " because its a good thing " would violate the law.

Release? Excused from past behavior? Do you really understand what the subject matter is? No one is talking about freeing this guy. No one is saying he is done paying for his crime. The only debate is between KILLING him on Tuesday or letting him spend the rest of his life behind bars. No one is “excusing” what he did at all. This debate is about the death penalty and the use of it.

Honestly, was anyone else confused about this?[/quote]

Excuse me , i meant release from the penalty itself. Guess we’ll have to wait till tomorow to find out about whether arnie grants release from the death penalty? Im assuming he would get life in prison w/out chance of parole

191

Profesor X wrote:
The only thing we do know for sure is that he killed people and, over the last 30 years, is supposedly against it. I would hope the death penalty would be used for those who have no hope of rehabilitation, not simply something we do for the act of murder.

Let’s do some math here. He’s been in prison for 24 yrs,but he only began his crusade to right his wrongs 13 yrs ago. IfTookie " is such a humanitarian and truly for his actions,what the hell was he doing the firs 11 yrs he was in prison?. I’ll tell you, he was still advocating everything he was when he atarted the Crips. Whatta POS

If the Governor doesn’t do this and grant clemency, every criminal in the entire US prison system will star writing children’s book.

192

Guys, the only problem we should have with the death penalty lies in whether we are extremely very certain or not of guilt.

This guy is ridiculously guilty, right? So now that’s out of the way… I know he’s done some positive stuff in the mean time, but I’m sorry… that doesn’t really matter. If I went on a fucking rampage and blew the skulls off of four completely innocent people for the grand total of two hundred and twenty dollars then I fully expect you guys to kill the shit out of my sorry, murderous, incompassionate ass if I get caught.

I would ask those of you who question the goodness of executing Tookie to consider this:

What virtue is served by ignoring the laws we have in place as punishment for the crimes he committed? I can see how compassion is applicable here, but we must consider what happens when we send mixed signals. Executing a criminal is a hell of a thing, as it should be. We cannot discard the greater virtue of courage to take the soft way here. Our duty lies in carrying this shit out.

I’ll do it myself if y’all don’t have the stomach for it. This is some serious shit… but we are talking about one life weighed against four. We are talking about cold-blooded murder vs. justice. If you can’t do the time… don’t… what was the saying again? Did he think nobody would care that he took the business end of a shotgun to four people who never did a damn thing to him?

I know this is tough, but come on guys… we can’t afford to be pussies with this. I’d love to say “oh you’re forgiven, Tookster!” and avoid the grim task of injecting his veins with bleach or whatever, but we must respect the lives that he took. We have these rules in place for a good damn reason.

IF YOU WERE THAT DESPERATE FOR MONEY, YOU COULD HAVE STOLEN THAT TWO-TWENTY WITHOUT KILLING FOUR PEOPLE WHO OFFERED YOU NO RESISTANCE, TOOKIE.

This is what happens when you are a cold-blooded murderer.

193

The fact that he has been on death row for so long is proof that the system is working. He has gone through all of his appeals , and its going to come down to Arnie who can stay his execution. And may god be with everybody that plays a part in this.

194

The CA Supreme Court voted 6-0 to refuse Tookie’s stay:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051212/ap_on_re_us/williams_execution

The California Supreme Court, a federal district court judge in Los Angeles, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court have all upheld his convictions.

Seems like Tookie had his chance to do the public some real good by giving up info on the hundreds of crimes committed by his gang members - and he could have used this as leverage for a lesser sentence.

So, in theory, he helped a few people by promoting anti-gang awareness from prison. Fantastic. How does the number of people he helped from that effort compare to the number of people who were harmed or killed because he hasn’t given up Crips for thirty years?

Helping the police actually prevent future death and crime by ratting out gang members would have been a hell of a lot more helpful than a children’s book. This talk of Tookie’s contribution to the public good means nothing to me - he had the power to truly protect the innocent victims of gang crime and chose not to.

195

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Fighting

That would make you the true definition of a bleeding heart liberal.

I’m quite sure I could post 100’s of letters from the victims impacted by this guys life and decisions.

Once granted clemency, I’ll be quite interested in his ‘path.’ My guess is you’ll never see another book or ‘message.’[/quote]

OH YEA!!!

196

I disagree with the use of this slant on things.

I don’t think whether or not somewhat rats out others is a good measure of whether or not he deserves clemency.

This doesn’t mean I actually think he does deserve clemency, but it means that this argument itself should probably have no bearing on it. Either there are things that he HAS done that deserve consideration or their isn’t. The lack of certain actions is only significant if you suggest that the action in question would make it appropriate to grant clemency.

I’m also a little suspicious of the “his death is needed” argument, such that if you do the crime, you do the time. Wait, what was that, time? Anyway, all you retribution folks, is a quick and painless death more of a retribution than being forced to live your life in a cage?

Again, I’m not concerned about whether or not he goes, but the discussion of the reasons to kill him seem very emotionally based.

Is there no possible way he can atone for his crimes? Is there any barrier through which he could pass that would make it appropriate to consider keeping him alive in jail?

How do you all feel about punishing people that choose to use steroids. I mean, it is a crime. The penalties are very clear. Do the crime, do the time, right?

It’s unfortunate that it takes perhaps 30 years to get to the point of making a final decision. The more time passes the more chance the person does have to change. This makes it harder to be convinced the perpetrator is the “same person” when punishment arrives.

Of course, physically, yes, but emotionally and mentally, probably not. So, the bigger question seems to be, is there any way some piece of shit lowlife can become a better person? How can you tell that has happened?

Finally, again, I’m not arguing for his clemency, I’m just pointing out issues and thoughts on the topic at hand. I’m not going to shed a tear if he is disposed of… he did earn it. At the same time, I won’t be upset if he lives, it’s possible that he has more to provide society alive than simply his death.

I’m glad I’m not making the decision!

197

[quote]vroom wrote:
the fact he refuses to work with police to actually take other criminals off of the street argue strongly against any idea that Tookie Williams is deserving of clemency.

I disagree with the use of this slant on things.

I don’t think whether or not somewhat rats out others is a good measure of whether or not he deserves clemency.
[/quote]

That’s an interesting slant, but it’s flawed, IMHO.

  1. He claims he has redeemed himself and is no longer a part of the gang culture.

  2. He claims he should not be killed because by living he can help end the descruction caused by the gang culture he helped create.

3a) He holds key information that could help police disrupt the gang culture, but won’t provide it.

3b) He won’t give that key information because it’s against the code of the gang culture.

You’re saying point 3 is irrelevant?? Doesn’t 3a directly refute 2, and 3b directly refute 1?

198

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
vroom wrote:
the fact he refuses to work with police to actually take other criminals off of the street argue strongly against any idea that Tookie Williams is deserving of clemency.

I disagree with the use of this slant on things.

I don’t think whether or not somewhat rats out others is a good measure of whether or not he deserves clemency.

That’s an interesting slant, but it’s flawed, IMHO.

  1. He claims he has redeemed himself and is no longer a part of the gang culture.

  2. He claims he should not be killed because by living he can help end the descruction caused by the gang culture he helped create.

3a) He holds key information that could help police disrupt the gang culture, but won’t provide it.

3b) He won’t give that key information because it’s against the code of the gang culture.

You’re saying point 3 is irrelevant?? Doesn’t 3a directly refute 2, and 3b directly refute 1?[/quote]

Good summary. Besides the arguments against the death penalty as a whole I have not seen any legitimate reasons why this particular murderous scum bag should be granted clemency.

199

[quote]3a) He holds key information that could help police disrupt the gang culture, but won’t provide it.

3b) He won’t give that key information because it’s against the code of the gang culture.

You’re saying point 3 is irrelevant?? Doesn’t 3a directly refute 2, and 3b directly refute 1?[/quote]

Moriarty,

Whether or not this type of code of honor is found in gang culture, it is also found in many other, non-gang related viewpoints.

There is certainly more than one way to combat the spread of gangs and the violence caused by gangs. Would you suggest that he has to do every single one of them in order to be doing anything worthwhile?

I’m not saying his books are effective or not, I’ve never seen them and I probably never will. However, the fact that he has chosen his own way to (possibly) do something good does not seem like a good reason to condemn him.

He can be condemned for the crime he committed.

He can be granted clemency if he is worth more to society alive than dead.

I don’t think his refusal to violate his own principles, assuming he has them, is an appropriate reason to deny clemency. That is all I’m trying to say.

This is especially intriguing if it is actually true that he swore to God that he would never reveal it. Who gets to judge that such an oath should be broken anyway? Most sects of Christianity believe in redemption and an ability to find God… who are we to say this person cannot also have his own relationship with God?

I realize you don’t have to take it, his oaths or religion, seriously.

Anyway, you can tell I don’t hold any active hatred for him as some on here do - which is surprising in a way. Neither do I like him or particularly care if he lives. From a dispassionate viewpoint there are very interesting questions here.

200

I found this timeline interesting.:

Apparently, he met Arnold 30 years ago at Venice Beach. Now his life is in his hands. I haven’t really been watching the news (or much tv at all) lately. What is the general atmosphere surrounding this case?

201

[quote]vroom wrote:
Anyway, you can tell I don’t hold any active hatred for him as some on here do - which is surprising in a way. Neither do I like him or particularly care if he lives. From a dispassionate viewpoint there are very interesting questions here.[/quote]

That is essentially how I feel about it. I am actually surprised myself at the emotion present in the “kill him now” crowd. You would swear they knew the guy or were related to the victims. For any Christian to not believe in forgiveness at all just sounds strange…yet maybe they are screaming the loudest.

202

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I found this timeline interesting.:

Apparently, he met Arnold 30 years ago at Venice Beach. Now his life is in his hands. I haven’t really been watching the news (or much tv at all) lately. What is the general atmosphere surrounding this case?[/quote]

Its just like Oj , except that he isn’t a celebrity they can like. He has protestors outside of arnie’s churches, the prison complex where he is at, and elsewhere. Black militants ( black riders) , counter-demonstrators , children that have read his books ( haha no just kidding ) , are all protesting.

Arnie better make his mind up if he does this but its going to open up a whole new can of worms if he DOES decide to not do the death penalty , b/c we’ll have inmates writing books, saving the homeless behind bars , all kinds of things in order to get off the death penalty. All in all i still think that our standard today of committing a capital crime ( like murder , treason) is the only route to an institutionalized death.

203

[quote]Moriarty wrote:

  1. He claims he has redeemed himself and is no longer a part of the gang culture.

  2. He claims he should not be killed because by living he can help end the descruction caused by the gang culture he helped create.

3a) He holds key information that could help police disrupt the gang culture, but won’t provide it.

3b) He won’t give that key information because it’s against the code of the gang culture.

You’re saying point 3 is irrelevant?? Doesn’t 3a directly refute 2, and 3b directly refute 1?[/quote]

Good post. Like vroom and others are saying they don’t necessarily conflict but if you really wanted to put down the gang you started i would think that there is just one best way so this is thrown in doubt.

My prediction: Arnie is saying NO to the stay of execution, Tookie is going to meet his maker. TO Vroom and Prox: get his book while you can at barnes & noble.