If they’re going to do a statistical anaylsis of the death penatly w/r/t race, it seems to me that the proper comparison would be the rate at which the death penalty is applied as compared with the race breakdown of those convicted of murder, not the race breakdown of the geneeral population.
Even that wouldn’t be a great comparison, as there are plenty of facts that could be used to get more accurate comparisons – such as, did the murderer know the victim, were there extentuating circumstances, etc.
But simply comparing the races of those on death row versus their percent of the population doesn’t tell you much about the death penalty. You may claim it tells you something about the system in general, which would be another discussion, but it doesn’t say anything about application of the death penalty.
He should have been put to death 25 years ago! Then we would not have to listen to the whining from celebs who want to save this piece of shit. He killed (executed) 4 people that we know of. How many more, possibly. He was founder of a well known gang that has been responsible for 1,000’s of deaths, drugs and I am sure countless other criminal activity. Is this an upstanding citizen. I think not. Ultimately he should be held responsible for all the activity of his gang, they do it to the mafia leaders why not him. The victims families have waited a great deal of time for this justice…that is a shame. Convict, one appeal, and put to death all inside a year. Make it public as in the old west or in Old Europe. This would deter crime. Why should he or any other killer be treated with civility? Did they offer any to their victims? Can you begin to imagine the fear of being put on your knees and having a shotgun held to the back of your head? Can you even begin to imagine the level of fear? He should be put to death in the same manner he killed. It is a better day when he dies tonight.
What do you think the point was? I am truly interested because if it was a non-issue, you would have responded to it just like you responded to the picture I posted…ie. not at all.
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Its an outlandish proposal from them to that they should break the law and let people out once they find God. Im not saying that other groups don’t do the same thing, but you are avoiding my arguement and instead objecting to the “outlandish” label im putting on your posts. Are they outlandish? i don’t know but if you disagree i would hope you could refute my 2 points. [/quote]
You are going to have to be clearer about your two points. Honestly, I am trying to understand your point and then I will debate it. Right now, it seems that you think that, regardless of whether someone changes or not over an extended period of time, the death penalty should stand. If that is your point, yes, I do disagree with that. If someone proves they have changed through psych-eval, killing them for retribution would appear to be about as “non-christian” as you can get…which is odd coming from anyone who would claim to be from the “religious right”. I would hope the death penalty would be saved for those who are incapable of rehabilitation.
What do you think the point was? I am truly interested because if it was a non-issue, you would have responded to it just like you responded to the picture I posted…ie. not at all.
[/quote]
Well, I thought you were going to make a specific point - that’s what I get for expectations set too high.
To repeat what Boston said - the statistics need a better correlation. Percentages relative to population percentages don’t tell you anything, especially if the crimes committed don’t fall along the same percentages. What is the percentage of people - along ethnic lines - that commit crimes that are eligible for death row?
Since the statistics truly don’t speak for themselves, that is why I asked you what you intended to use them for.
Oh, and as for commenting on the picture - nice pecs.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
thabigdon24 wrote:
Its an outlandish proposal from them to that they should break the law and let people out once they find God. Im not saying that other groups don’t do the same thing, but you are avoiding my arguement and instead objecting to the “outlandish” label im putting on your posts. Are they outlandish? i don’t know but if you disagree i would hope you could refute my 2 points.
You are going to have to be clearer about your two points. Honestly, I am trying to understand your point and then I will debate it. Right now, it seems that you think that, regardless of whether someone changes or not over an extended period of time, the death penalty should stand. If that is your point, yes, I do disagree with that. If someone proves they have changed through psych-eval, killing them for retribution would appear to be about as “non-christian” as you can get…which is odd coming from anyone who would claim to be from the “religious right”. I would hope the death penalty would be saved for those who are incapable of rehabilitation.[/quote]
Once again I’ll ask who decides who is rehabilitatable? How do you know this man is? What do you base this on?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
thabigdon24 wrote:
Its an outlandish proposal from them to that they should break the law and let people out once they find God. Im not saying that other groups don’t do the same thing, but you are avoiding my arguement and instead objecting to the “outlandish” label im putting on your posts. Are they outlandish? i don’t know but if you disagree i would hope you could refute my 2 points.
You are going to have to be clearer about your two points. Honestly, I am trying to understand your point and then I will debate it. Right now, it seems that you think that, regardless of whether someone changes or not over an extended period of time, the death penalty should stand. If that is your point, yes, I do disagree with that. If someone proves they have changed through psych-eval, killing them for retribution would appear to be about as “non-christian” as you can get…which is odd coming from anyone who would claim to be from the “religious right”. I would hope the death penalty would be saved for those who are incapable of rehabilitation.[/quote]
You aren’t making it clear if you were referring to or to somebody else about your religous right comments but i am agnostic and consider myself centrist. As far as anybody " proving " that you have changed that is easy! Hardened criminals could do it easily, and show that they have changed their ways and so forth but the fact of the matter is; people want to kill each other all the time. Some guy cuts you off or impresses some chick at a party more than you so you go home w/ no play. Things like that make me mad all the time but i have the self control not to hurt people.
My point is , that offering evidence - both w/ psych eval and lifestyle - is that crimes can and will happen. Just because we may not " want " to commit them in the future doesn’t mean that it will happen. Thats crime for you.
One more thing, if this isn’t just some weird idea you have could you provide a list of other countries that follow the ideas you are proposing? And a link clearly explaining this aspect of their criminal justice system. Thanks
Once again I’ll ask who decides who is rehabilitatable? How do you know this man is? What do you base this on? [/quote]
X knows none of this. Im waiting for an end to this gibberish and for him to provide something more concrete - like any country actually implementing something so non-practical. It just can’t be done.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Well, I thought you were going to make a specific point - that’s what I get for expectations set too high.[/quote]
Right. I did have a point, but to make it understood I wanted to know where others stood.
[quote]
To repeat what Boston said - the statistics need a better correlation. Percentages relative to population percentages don’t tell you anything, especially if the crimes committed don’t fall along the same percentages. What is the percentage of people - along ethnic lines - that commit crimes that are eligible for death row?[/quote]
I wouldn’t know. I haven’t seen too many charts done on the statistics of the death penalty at all, let alone California until now. However, I do think it is a significant point that in a city with a percentage population that low, the number of those on death row is that high. Obviously the factors would include culture, the judicial system and the types of crimes committed.
[quote]
Since the statistics truly don’t speak for themselves, that is why I asked you what you intended to use them for.[/quote]
Strictly for discussion. That is all we can do anyway.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Once again I’ll ask who decides who is rehabilitatable? How do you know this man is? What do you base this on? [/quote]
I don’t know for sure this man is and that comment wasn’t just related to this man. He is a great example simply because he is a hot topic. I have written several times the judges of character that I think should make that decision. All you have to do is go back and read the same posts. I don’t even feel like typing it AGAIN.
I will say that I think the act of killing someone as retribution for a crime doesn’t seem to elevate us much above them unless they simply can not be rehabilitated. There are societies that we look down upon for chopping off the hands of a theif. It is only logical that hopefully one day these same actions will be viewed in the same way. I am simply wondering how long that will take.
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
You aren’t making it clear if you were referring to or to somebody else about your religous right comments but i am agnostic and consider myself centrist.[/quote]
That comment was made in general. I could care less what your religion is or lack thereof. It just seems that many of the ones who seem to side with that viewpoint are for the death penalty. I am wondering how they justify it religiously. It is only a question.
[quote]
One more thing, if this isn’t just some weird idea you have could you provide a list of other countries that follow the ideas you are proposing? And a link clearly explaining this aspect of their criminal justice system. Thanks[/quote]
I could care less if any other countries avoid the death penalty. Since when do we make decisions based on the actions of any other country? I thought we were the ones supposedly “leading the pack”? Isn’t the standard up to us?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
thabigdon24 wrote:
You aren’t making it clear if you were referring to or to somebody else about your religous right comments but i am agnostic and consider myself centrist.
That comment was made in general. I could care less what your religion is or lack thereof. It just seems that many of the ones who seem to side with that viewpoint are for the death penalty. I am wondering how they justify it religiously. It is only a question.
Prof X = more liberal ideas on crime than california
One more thing, if this isn’t just some weird idea you have could you provide a list of other countries that follow the ideas you are proposing? And a link clearly explaining this aspect of their criminal justice system. Thanks
I could care less if any other countries avoid the death penalty. Since when do we make decisions based on the actions of any other country? I thought we were the ones supposedly “leading the pack”? Isn’t the standard up to us?[/quote]
Well when you introduce outragous ideas that open up the door to more racial bias, more poliking of " gettin jaysus " to get out of death row or even better yet, jail itself and the problem of re-offenders coming out and makeing a fool of the system and a rape victim of the granny down the street then yes i think you need to provide us with something more.
At the very least you could tell us what to do with the problems i just mentioned. This reminds me of some of the more fanciful post(er)s on this board.
You want to kill people when they cut you off or if they get laid and you don’t?
[/quote]
Not really. These are extreme examples of the everyday kinds of things that can can get people to get angry at each other. Its not a violent person that gets pissed against somebody else and then blows off steam somewhere else.
It is a violent person that gets in an arguement with somebody and then commits a murder or 4. If this same person gets the fortune of living in Prox’s world he may get the chance to get out of jail once he hits 60 if he acts Christian enough. Mabey giving a bible study to inmates would do it for him i don’t know.
[quote]vroom wrote:
people want to kill each other all the time. Some guy cuts you off or impresses some chick at a party more than you so you go home w/ no play. Things like that make me mad all the time but i have the self control not to hurt people.
You want to kill people when they cut you off or if they get laid and you don’t?
–
Sasquatch, I noticed you made the mistake of thinking the Prof was arguing for clemency a second time… ?
Not to pick on you, but it seems that some people aren’t able to entertain notions unless they are in support of their own stance.
There really are interesting issues around this, that can be discussed without thinking that you are trying to “free tookie” or any such nonsense.[/quote]
You are wrong
I never claimed or thought or noticed that the prof was arguing for clemency. Not once.
My issue is himsaying that only those that can’t be rehabilitated should be put to death. As I questiuoned him I will you. Who then decides this?
And please, don’t confuse me with that picture you see in the mirror. I am not uncapable of seeing the opposite side. I do happen to believe in the death penalty for the most heinous of crimes. This certainly qualifies in my opinion. 4 cold blooded murders=death penalty to me.
I have never confused one post with free tookie garbage. Argue on point and I will discuss. Condescend to someone who can’t see what you’re doing.
Hey X , i could see one of those klansmen shouting some racial remarks at the protestors. He would last all of 10 seconds. Ok mabey i shouldn’t throw any mockery into this thread but its funny to me nontheless
btwt the picture is from yahoo news if anybody wants a link i’ll provide it. The group is a black militant group called the black riders ,not to be confused w/ the tolkien characters.
[quote]And please, don’t confuse me with that picture you see in the mirror. I am not uncapable of seeing the opposite side. I do happen to believe in the death penalty for the most heinous of crimes. This certainly qualifies in my opinion. 4 cold blooded murders=death penalty to me.
I have never confused one post with free tookie garbage. Argue on point and I will discuss. Condescend to someone who can’t see what you’re doing.[/quote]
Are you always such a santimonous ass? If you aren’t seeing “free tookie” anywhere, then your post came across different than you intended. Relax.
[quote]vroom wrote:
And please, don’t confuse me with that picture you see in the mirror. I am not uncapable of seeing the opposite side. I do happen to believe in the death penalty for the most heinous of crimes. This certainly qualifies in my opinion. 4 cold blooded murders=death penalty to me.
I have never confused one post with free tookie garbage. Argue on point and I will discuss. Condescend to someone who can’t see what you’re doing.
Are you always such a santimonous ass? If you aren’t seeing “free tookie” anywhere, then your post came across different than you intended. Relax.[/quote]
Vroom
You make blantantly false accusations. You speak down to me.
I express my point of view and my intent has been clear all along. Tell me how that makes me santimonous(sp)?
Oooops, now that was certainly a tad pious of me.
On topic. My position is that is the penalty allowed by the law of the land. This crime certainly is worthy of the harshest possible punishment.
I’m sure others on death row have done something good. I would have to research. Will you and the prof be there for Scott Peterson on his day of need?
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Well when you introduce outragous ideas that open up the door to more racial bias[/quote]
Judging whether someone could be rehabilitated after many years on death row opens the door to more social bias? How is this? Many would argue that some of that racial bias is what sent some of them there to begin with.
[quote]
, more poliking of " gettin jaysus " to get out of death row or even better yet, jail itself and the problem of re-offenders coming out and makeing a fool of the system[/quote]
How is life in prison “making a fool of the system”? Even if “Tookie” didn’t die tonight, he would still be locked away FOR LIFE. What is it you aren;t getting? Life in prison doesn’t mean “coming out”.
[quote]
At the very least you could tell us what to do with the problems i just mentioned. This reminds me of some of the more fanciful post(er)s on this board. [/quote]
Are you even reading what you are posting? What problems did you just mention? You brought up racial bias and “getting out” making a mockery of victims and contributed both to someone being evaluated for rehabilitation after years on death row.
How do you think your problems would be related? Racial bias? Because someone was evaluated for rehabilitation?
My issue is himsaying that only those that can’t be rehabilitated should be put to death. As I questiuoned him I will you. Who then decides this?[/quote]
…and for the third time, wouldn’t the answer be psychologists, the jail system and evaluation by the court system?
[quote]
I have never confused one post with free tookie garbage. Argue on point and I will discuss. Condescend to someone who can’t see what you’re doing.[/quote]
You could be asked to argue on point as well since this was already the answer given to you on previous pages. What are you arguing now? That you don’t think this should ever be a possibility?
