Though it is true that ketostix only show unused/excreted ketones, they can still be of use. If ketones are being excreted then the body is preferentially using ketones for energy and eliminating most of the protein conversion to glucose because less energy is expended. Alpha Lipoic Acid is a great tool for ketogenic dieters. Not only does it dispose of glucose but it also inhibits gluconeogenesis. This can be good and bad. Inhibiting this process a little will offer an increased triglyceride to ketone conversion and lower the muscle protein losses. On the other hand, too much inhibition can deplete the brain of essential glucose. The brain runs mostly on glucose, approximately 80-90% of total calories used by the brain, until about week three of ketosis when the body has completely adapted to the new metabolic state. Even then the brain prefers glucose to the presence of ketones. When using ALA in effective dosages in ketosis you WILL feel like crap! You will have no energy, not want to get out of bed, and generally be depressed. It’s the price you pay for protein sparing induced catabolism.
what is an effective dosage of ALA?
There’s an easy (relatively anyway) way to minimize the zombie-like feeling from heavy glucose disposal agent usage, and this came from the late Dan Duchaine. Take your ALA in a high dose before you go to bed on your first one or two low-carb days. You’ll sleep right through that crappy feeling (for the most part). Dosage-wise, anywhere from 200-600 mg. with carb meals if you do it during your carb-up. To help reinstate ketosis, you probably don’t want to go anywhere near the 600 mg. dosage w/o carbs but I know people (yours truly for one) that have tried this previously. I never really got the bonked out feeling from doing so, maybe because I took it before bedtime and also I had been on the low-carb diet for a couple weeks already. John U, you are someone I’d like to brainstorm with as you also seem to be well-informed on the whole keto thing. Any thoughts as to the before bedtime idea on your first couple of low-carb days, and what is your take on proper dosage to effectively lower blood sugar? I am thinking 100-200 mg although I have used the 400-600 range before, only because I overdid the carb-up and I needed all the help I could get as it takes me 5-6 days to reenter ketosis if I blow it on the carb-up. While the high dosage didn’t bother me a bit, I know that many people are much more sensitive.
ALA works wonders for me. Sunday night I destroyed a Whitman’s sampler chocolate box (not a good way to carb up, mind you, but after a month of no carbs these things happen). Anyway, I took about 600mg ALA divided in three doses and registered ketones on the stix about midday Tuesday. I have noticed however that the more ones body is familiar with ketogenic diets, the easier it is to enter this state.
Teddykgb, I have studied the ketogenic diet for quite some time now and I think that Lyle’s book is definitely the best source of information on the subject. Much can be interpreted from it and which many other sources of information can be found. I personally think that ketogenic dieter should stay at least 600mg per day. I usually use 3000mg on the first day to enter ketosis within 24 hrs and 1000mg everyday thereafter. I have found this to be the safest and most effective way to supplement, though expensive for most. I have used metformin to enter ketosis before but it is not fun and in my opinion dangerous. After a 12 hour fast from the night prior I took 850mg of metformin and nearly passed out walking to class. It is just too good of a disposal agent to use, at least at first. My reasoning is that glucose levels drop so fast and dramatically that the body is nowhere near a metabolic shift to create ketones and in the worst scenario you die. Later, when the body has created enough glucagon and is mobilizing fats well, I believe metformin may be even more effect at sparing protein loses while in ketosis. ALA takes awhile to work for me but I too have seen other people who are extremely sensitive to it. The nightly dosing which you spoke of works great for those entering ketosis, especially the first night. I would have to say that I think ALA should be mandatory at night for the rest of ketosis as well as throughout the day. Yes, the zombie feeling will be there but we are talking about fat loss and keeping muscle here. Include a protein and equal or higher in weight of fat meal for the best pre-bedtime meal. For the carb-up, I do like combining ALA and metformin with high glycemic and high carb meals at first. There seems to be a synergy between the two but it’s hard to tell without constant blood analysis, I don’t have a glucometer yet. This is also great on the last day of the carb-up with very low glycemic and moderate carb meals to assist in lowering glucose for re-entering ketosis. I have to mention that if any of you are contemplating the use of exogenous insulin in achieving greater glycogen super-compensation or faster ketosis, forget about it. It is EXTREMELY dangerous. Anyone suggesting otherwise is doing a great injustice to you because they don’t know what they are talking about. So what if you’ve done it before and had no problems, it takes just one slip and your dead. You won’t even know it’s coming even when it’s too late. Tben, it is true that the more one has done a ketogenic diet, or more accurately how short apart, the faster they can enter ketosis. The enzymes that are needed for ketosis are already there in the same fashion that lactase is. It’s even easier when you’ve completely adapted to ketosis, roughly 3 weeks, and re-enter later.
All of this talk about the carb up and no one metioned fat intake, which has the possibility to do the most damage on a carb up, due to the fact that the body is switching from ketosis into a normal carb based diet where fat is now a primarily a storage nutrient, instead of the primary energy source. For the least fat gain Lyle McDonald recomends no more that 88g of fat for the first 24 hours of the carb up and no more than 44g for the second 24 hours of the carb up (about 15% of calories should come from fat). A word on protein as well, eventhough an excessive calorie level (as seen during the carb up) decreases the need for protein, 1-gram per/lb of body mass is still recomended, in the first 24 hours whey is optiomal b/c of it’s fast absorption rate, which won’t slow down digestion of all of the carbs. Also, get unsaturated fats when ever possible, (omega 3’s are the best), b/c saturated fats decrease insulin sensitivity. Hope this helps.
Wow, 3,000 mg the first day? Now that is hardcore. Ketosis within 24 hrs. w/o insulin sure sounds nice. That would be expensive as hell though, although of all people to offer a relatively inexpensive ALA, EAS has a decent cost. I imagine there are cheaper sources such as Now but I question the quality. I used to use monster doses of vanadyl sulfate and chromium to accelerate ketosis but then Lyle filled me in on vanadyl actually inhibiting it, not to mention the possible toxicity factor. Lyle has been wonderful-I was corresponding w. him long before the book was even an idea. I happened to run across his BO diaries back in 94 and started emailing him. He has really been like a mentor to me, not only w. the keto stuff but training as well. Okay, as I used to manage a health food store I had access to all kinds of books/supps, but there’s a couple I wanted to get your opinion on (usefulness for low-carb diets) if you’re familiar w. them, and I’m guessing that you are: Gymnema sylvestre (we had massive requests for this one but the distributor we were getting it from dropped it), and any of the blends (in particular Atkins’ Blood Sugar formula and Enzymatic Therapy’s Dr’s Choice for Diabetics). And on carb-ups, do you use Lyle’s method or do you have your own approach?
Oh I forgot something too John. On the subject of ALA again, what do you use for dosage during carb-ups, if any?
I know Natrol ALA can be acquired relatively cheap. I buy 100mg capsule 100ct at $20. Vanadyl Sulfate may actually have some use during the carb-up phase. There is research that suggests it increases glycogen storage in muscle, which is its main mode of action. This would probably be enough to inhibit ketosis as glycogen levels must drop very low to achieve it. I’ve had a little success with it during the first 24hrs of a carb-up but think that it would probably work better for a post-workout carbohydrate meal on a ketogenic diet. Lyle is a very knowledgeable guy on this subject and I remember those diaries very well. I am surprised that T-mag hasn’t done an interview or featured articles with him. What’s the deal Chris? I’m not very familiar with the products you’ve mentioned, but I generally don’t like Atkins’ products. They are too geared for consumers that don’t have a clue. They are mostly a way for him to get more money and make his diet easier so people will buy into it. On the subject of carb-ups, I prefer to use my own method, though Lyle’s method works. I will first consume a meal with a very high glycemic index with glucose polymers that raise blood sugar levels the highest and of course protein. I don’t think it is wise to add fat, regardless if they are EFA’s, to the first few meals. The protein in the first meal consists of half hydrolyzed whey and half CFM whey isolate, probably the most revolting mixture besides straight hydrolyzed. This is not the time to add longer acting proteins, such as caseinate, into the mix. Stay with fast acting proteins short chain proteins and eat the first few meals close together. Eventually I will switch to low glycemic meals with higher protein. Gradually add the fat back in with flax oil and/or fresh fish. On the third day, if you plan to re-enter ketosis, you must start lowering your carb intake while increasing protein and fat. The carbs should take a steep dive down to the last meal with carbs, so you start this about mid-day. ALA works great for the carb-up especially combined with metformin. Metformin is a great drug that offers the unique ability to increase insulin sensitivity in the muscle and decrease it in fat. I will generally use 200-400mg of ALA per meal during a carb-up and take 1700-2550mg of metformin per day. I would imagine that adding steroids, hGH, and insulin into mix would greatly improve glycogen super-compensation and anabolism. I would be interested to know your opinions of vinpocetine. I’ve been trying to find a good brand cheaply and I am not sure which to choose. I’m also considering ordering other nootropics. Any suggestions?
I just started using Vinpocetine actually. I add it to the PowerDrive formula pre-workout. It seems to help w. focus and energy. I use GNC’s Natural Brand, it has 5 mg. w. I think 200 mg. green tea ext (don’t have the bottle in front of me). I’m gonna be upping my dosage shortly as I’m getting ready to taper off EC (ugh). Normally I would laugh off one of the Atkins products (although i still don’t think the shake is a bad one), but the Blood Sugar formula was recommended by none other than Charles Poliquin himself. It’s got the good forms of zinc and magnesium (monomethionine and glycinate), ALA, chromium, buffered C in high dose, E, selenium, various other trinkets as well as very high dosages of folic acid and biotin. Any reasons you can think of as to why these would be in high amts? I figure folic acid is high for the homocysteine thing, but what about biotin? I have been taking it w. extra ALA w. post-workout shakes during keto days and my first couple of carb-up meals. Where do you get your metformin-isn’t this a 'script or do you just have the right connections? I generally keep fat intake low anyway on carb-ups. Even when I binge I binge on strictly carb foods such as corn flakes, low-fat granola, MetRx and 151 bars (love those Choc. Graham Cracker Met-RX), etc. Tomorrow’s my depletion workout/carbup day and for whatever reason today I am totally bonked, much more than usual. Maybe because I took ALA before bed last night but I’ve done this before. Here’s another carbup question: do you get up every two hrs. during carb-ups to eat or do you just consume a monster dose of them w. fiber before bedtime?
The Blood Sugar Formula doesn’t sound like a bad combination but quality is of concern to me. I don’t recommend soy products so therefore I can’t recommend the Atkins shake. I believe the high amounts of these minerals and vitamins are put into his products because ketogenic diets are deficient in them. Much of the vitamins and minerals are in a different form than found in nature and can’t be absorbed as well as from whole foods like grain. This is why supplementing with higher amounts work better. When getting metformin I usually opt for SBC. He is the man when it comes to nonscheduled pharmaceuticals. These drugs can be ordered legally into the country if under a 90 day supply. It can be ordered from the life extentionist page as well. Be careful binging on carbs, you could end up fatter than you anticipated. I have tried the 2hr eating program and it didn’t work any better than what I already do. A large low-glycemic meal with fiber, solid protein, and flax oil is enough for me before bed. Though I only sleep 2.5-3hrs a day anyway. I suspect that it would be fine if you did this and slept longer. Caseinate may slow digestion as well. Are you taking an ephedrine/caffeine stack or a norephedrine/yohimbine/caffeine stack? I find it’s easier to come off an NYC stack than an EC stack. The NYC stack is used best during the ketosis phase as yohimbine works better in the presence of low blood sugar. Carbohydrates negate most of its effect. Switch to EC or just ephedrine for the carb-up. It won’t have the same anorectic effect so you can eat more, which is hard to do on a carb-up.
I am using EC right now. I used to use Adipokinetix but it’s a little harder to come by. I was under the impression that you didn’t want to use EC during the carb up as it interfered w. insulin sensitivity, plus I try to get at least one day a week where I don’t use it. Figure the adrenal glands could use a break. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against using it if it won’t screw things up. My carb-ups are always textbook until about 12-15 hrs in then I get crazy mad uncontrollable cravings. I could definitely use the appetite blunting effect-maybe take a hit of it Sat. morning (start my carb ups Friday evening). I could’ve used you about six weeks ago-I’m pretty much done dieting as I’m down to just under 5 % (measured w. 7-site and my Lange calipers). I know this is accurate not only by looks but every time I get really lean my circadian rhythms get all haywire and I don’t sleep worth a crap. I’ll have to look into the metformin. Thanks for the advice.
I believe that the EC and NCY stack both interfere with insulin in adipocytes, but I have never heard of them inhibiting insulin sensitivity. If your adrenal glands are that suppressed then I’m sure you know to provide the proper precursors to boost neurotransmitter production. I personally have never been down to 5%. The closest I’ve gotten was around 8%. Fairly lean but still not a complete six pack. Considering my genetics dictate otherwise, I have a VERY “large” family, I think I’ve done pretty well for myself. I congratulate you on your 5% and hope to meet you there someday.