Actually gustojack, on a strict keto diet (and Fat Fast is definitely that) milk would not be allowed. An 8 oz. glass contains 13 g. carbs, and it’s virtually all sugar. On Fat Fast the kicker is NO carbs, or as close to it as you can get. Standard and cyclic keto diets usually use 30 g./day carbs for maximum amount, although there are variations such as targeted keto diets like T-Dawg that use carbs centered around workouts. Milk might not be the best source-you need something quickly assimilated and one that will have a spike in insulin so you can get the glucose from the carbs out of your system such as maltodextrin or something similar. And guys, recovery is definitely going to be slower w/o the incoming carbs that usually refill muscle glycogen. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be lifting hard, but it’s much easier to overtrain on a keto diet, and Fat Fast compounds this with its lower calorie level, so just be aware of this.
Thanks for all the info! I love this forum thing, its awesome…Go T-Mag! Anyway, I started the Fat Fast today and so far only one meal but I wanted to run it by everyone for their input to make sure I’m on the right track: 0900hrs… protein shake (Prolab) 130 calories, 24g protein, 3.5g carbs, 1.5g fat. ‘fish body oils 1000’ 20 calories, 0 protein, 0 carbs, 2g fat. Multivitamin, 2 capsuls of metobolic thyrolean (prolab), 500mg vitamin C, 50mg Alpha Lipoic Acid (twinlab), and 16oz of water which includes the 8oz used to make the shake along with a packet of equal which made it way too sweet so that’ll be cut down to 1/2 packet. Yeah I know I woke up late but I didn’t have to work because of MLK Day. I plan to have at least two meals today with fish instead of a protein shake, but the other stuff will remain the same. I’m still trying to calculate the right amount of servings I need for the entire day, but since you guys mentioned that if I take too much protein my body may convert it to glucose or something and kick me out of ketosis, I’m a little worried. So how am I doing thus far? Once I have this thing figured out I’ll quit bothering everyone and just give occasional updates I promise. Thanks T-MEN!
Your fat intake is way too low, chief. Remember, w. Fat Fast your plan is to do 50-60% of your maintenance cals, w. half from protein. The rest has to come from fat. This is what will keep you going on this excruciating plan. If you underdo the fat, you’ll lose LBM quickly, plus you need the fat for ketosis too-excess protein converts to glucose. Your protein intake looks okay, but balance it out with the fat. Go to your local health food store and buy some liquid flax oil. It’s not that expensive. Something along the lines of 1 tbsp. flax along with each serving of protein will get the job done, and keep using your fish oil caps too. Keep me posted on how you’re doing, I don’t mind helping as long as my advice is helpful.
teddykgb, ok, you offered to help. I started the fat fast last monday at 189 and on saturday I was at 182. I carbed up on Saturday during the day and some on Sunday morning(I know there isn’t supposed to be a carb up on the fat fast, so it’s not an official fat fast diet, but I’m not using any (n)androsol). Then this morning I was at 189 again. Is that just water weight that I lost last week or did I just do more damage than good this weekend?
I guarantee you 95 % of it is water weight. You didn’t mention how many carbs you ate and what types. It is typical to gain anywhere from 3-8 lbs. of water after your carb-up, sometimes more. I recently had a carb-up where I weighed in 14 lbs. heavier after 2 days of carbing (this was a full-blown binge though-7,000 cals on Sat. alone and a good 5,000 on Sun.) This is not a practice that I recommend. If you limit your carb-up to 24 hrs, you can more or less eat anything you want w/o any appreciable fat increase, although for best results there are methods to calculate your carb-up amounts based on your LBM. I use 8-10 g/kg of LBM over a 24 hr. period, eating every two hrs. including sleep time, and going by my LBM my first two meals are 90-100 g. carbs. w. 30-40 g. protein (e.g. a serving of Grow, a bowl of Corn Flakes and 8-12 oz. grape juice), then going w. an intake of 40-50 g. for each meal after that. This is getting pretty anal but if you want the absolute best results on your carb-up, this will do it. Also limit if not avoid fructose/sucrose during your carb-up as they will refill liver glycogen thus taking it longer to reenter ketosis. (And don’t thank me for the above method, thank Lyle McDonald, my low-carb mentor).
On the FFD (Fat Fast Diet), what are you guys doing about your fiber needs? Are you mixing psyllium into your shakes or something?
Recovery on the Fat Fast is horrible, I know. My suggestion would be to include a very fast eccentric phase on all movements. I am not saying to drop the weight but lower it as fast as you can with control. This will allow you to use heavier weight and cause less muscle damage. Heavier weight requires more energy expenditure and has less oxidative damage than light weight used in high reps. Use glutamine after your workout.
Yup, I agree. Not only would I use glutamine but I would use a pretty high dose as well. If your budget allows it, include some antioxidants as well. Ideal ones are Vit. C and E (obviously), and if you want to get a little fancier grape seed extract, alpha lipoic acid ang green tea are all excellent sources. I also use MSM powder as it is an excellent anti-inflammatory but I’m not really on a restricted budget right now, plus where I worked at a health food store I got a sweet discount on my supps. Definitely use the C and E and maybe look for a blend that has a few others such as selenium, beta carotene, etc.
I use psyllium powder (drink it straight) when I remember. For whatever reason, I don’t have a problem with constipation on this diet although sometimes bowel movements aren’t overly solid (more info than you wanted to know I’m sure). I also got ahold of some guar gum powder which is killer for insulin sensitivity but I use it sparingly since I have read that it pulls water into the colon which is not the best thing (Dan D. talked about this in an old article). I also include two green salads a day w. red wine vinegar and lemon juice which lowers the glycemic level, plus cauliflower so my fiber intake is pretty respectable.
Thanks teddykgb! Ok I have another question: at what point is too many carbs too many carbs? If I drink 6 servings of my protein shake a day, then I’m consuming 21g of carbs a day. I think that’s probably way too high for this diet. If so, any ideas on what to do about it? I guess I could buy different powder, but damn, I’m not Bill Gates! I guess I need to eat tuna or something in place of some of the servings… well let me know! Thanks T-MEN!
Thanks for the input teddykgb. I would have never thought the carbs from milk would make that much of a difference. I’m on my second week on the fat fast diet now. I haven’t had a “carb-up” yet, but if I drop the milk I definitely will need a hit this weekend.
The amount of carbs depends on how strictly you are going to follow Brock’s original advice. On the first plan he was at virtually ZERO carbs, although this is not critical, just one approach. He has since modified it where workout days contain higher carbs, less than 60 g. on training days pre-workout w. alpha lipoic acid to clear the glucose quickly, making it more like a targeted ketogenic diet. Anywhere from 25-50 g. is a good way to go with this approach. If you do this you might avoid fructose and sucrose so you don’t refill your liver glycogen, but this might not be necessary. I like the ideas behind the Fat Fast, but many people on here seem to think that you have to consume zero carbs for it to work. Technically as long as you are under 30g/day ketosis should be no problem, and some even say that as long as you are under 100g/day ketosis will eventually happen. I play it safe and stay under 30g. It would be impractical to strive for zero or even under 10-20 g. carbs daily as most of your low carb foods contain trace amounts of carbs (such as your whey protein powders, cheese, eggs, etc.) And particularly if Androsol/Nandrosol or anabolics are not being used, you’ll need either a slightly higher carb level or better yet a 24 hr. carb-up preferably after Friday’s workout. This makes the diet doable, as you get to satisfy some cravings not to mention refill your muscle glycogen. A word of caution: mad cravings can strike at any given time on carb-ups-do your best to keep them in check. I’ve already told you about my 7,000 calorie carb day horror story. If you’re gonna go hog wild, maybe go less than 24 hrs. Carb-ups will take trial and error. I could lecture you all day on how you should carb up but people respond differently. I have to be strict as hell on mine otherwise it takes me 5-6 days to get back into ketosis, where others can eat Alpha Bits, Twinkies and whatnot all day and have no problems. Wish I was this fortunate.
One other thing I forgot to mention. For what it’s worth, I consume approx. 20 g. day on off days (carbs), then on training days the only modification I make is to consume an MRP (Grow) post workout w. added glutamine and lipoic acid. I consume no pre-workout carbs but I do use a thermogenic. I do the flax and whey shakes 2-3x/day, then I will either do eggs for a meal, or something like eye of round (my favorite steak) w. fish oil caps and flax oil and a salad w. olive oil, vineger and lemon juice. I also usually have fresh grilled salmon once a day too or lean ground beef. My training program is German Body Comp. This is Week 16 of my diet (the first 10 weeks were standard high protein, moderate carb, the last 6 have been GBC w. the keto diet) and my results have never been better.
Tuna or salmon is fine to use on the fat fast. Salmon is preferred since tune contains high levels of mercury. If you are looking for protein with the lowest amount of carbs then whey isolate is your best bet. Yes, vitamin E and C work well. Especially before a workout to prevent oxidative damage. Don’t take ALA before the workout though.
Question about losing muscles on keto diet: As long as my ketostiks show ketones in my urine, should I be worried about LBM loss? I was under the impression that you should really worry about muscle loss once you run out of ketones, as your obdy has no alternative except to break down the muscle tissue at that point.
Secondly: In the "Zone" diet, there is a sentence that says keto diets increase fat cell sensitivity by a factor of 10x. So when you come off, you can gain fat quickly. How do I side-step this trap?
There’s a lot more to it than the color of the ketosticks and being in ketosis as far as LBM goes. First, the sticks are all but worthless really unless you’re on your first week or two of keto dieting or if you make some type of change in terms of carbs, etc. You can actually be in ketosis and still not have it show on the sticks. The sticks only show UNUSED ketones. If you’re very active and/or on low cals your body will likely be burning them all up, thus no color change on the sticks. Even if you stay in ketosis 24/7, you will eventually lose muscle w/o periodic carb-ups and/or anabolics. I used to do the Bodyopus version where you went 12 days before each carb-up, and I lost a ton of muscle and looked sickly in the photos I had taken. As far as fat regain goes, if you go back to crappy diet habits, you will gain fat back. If you follow a clean diet and don’t go overboard, you’ll gain weight back the first week (around 5 lbs. give or take), but it’s only water weight. And I like the Zone diet, but don’t take it all as gospel. Dr. Sears believes that flax oil is a bad source of essential fatty acids (???) but we T-maggers all know better.
teddykgb:
Thanks for the reply. I knew about the ketones being used up, but I was thinking that as long as I am eating enough that the ketosticks keep showing ketone bodies in my system, that my body was not using up LBM as fast. As mentioned, I’m on a ketogenic diet. I was going to do a 10 day diet, followed by 10 days off (normal maintenance level eating, no carb up) followed by another 10 day diet, and then again 10 days off. This will be followed up with a full-blown 8 week bulk cycle with supplements and ‘assistance’. That’s where my concern about fat sensitivity came from – if my cells were 10x sensitive, and I go into a bulk cycle, I’d be in trouble. Any suggestions for tweaking my diet? I’m in day 6 of the first diet phase, and am down 5 pounds despite drinking 1.5 gallons of water a day, and my strength is the same on all lifts.
Mark,
Unless you’re freak ripped, your body has plenty of fat stores from which to produce ketones. That should not be an indicator of muscle loss. You should worry about muscle loss because you are not eating adequate carbohydrates, and even the most staunchest advocates of keto diets, Lyle Mcdonald and Dan Duchaine, say that you will lose muscle without a carb-up (assuming you are dieting naturally). I have to admit that reading Bodyopus and The Ketogenic Diet in that regard was kinda depressing. I have amazingly found that I do better with the carb-up than without it - I guess lucky me. Maybe it’s because it salvages my metabolic rate a bit.
As far as coming off the diet, forget The Zone. Anytime you jump from reduced calories to maintenance or above, you will regain some fat. This is because your metabolism has slowed down. Just reintroduce carbohydrates SLOWLY back into your diet, maybe tossing in increments of 20 grams per day until your diet has normalized. I've been averaging 1/2 lb of weight loss per day. This is too damn extreme, but my strength levels are holding steady so I don't think I'm losing too much muscle. The sooner I finish the sooner I can eat at maintenance and quickly gain lost muscle back. KEEP LIFTING, Atkins dieters rebound because they lose too much muscle along the way which significantly reduces metabolic rate. When they start eating normally again, they run into trouble.
As far as LBM loss, Brock attributes his preservation of muscle to his use of androsol as the “anabolic link” in protecting his muscle while on the FFD. Even then, he only used 35 sprays 2x/day. Have any of you noticed the use of androsol to be significant in your maintenance of LBM without a crb-up day during the FFD?
I’m a little confused about your 10 on, 10 off. On your 10 off, are you still doing keto w. higher cals or are you consuming normal carb levels? By the end of the 10 days if you’re not carbing or using “assistance” you’re gonna lose some muscle. I honestly think you should do your keto for M-F, carb for 24 hrs. from Friday post-workout until Saturday bedtime, then resume keto on Sun. If you don’t overdo the carbs on your carb up, avoid fructose and sucrose during your carb up and do an hour of very low intensity cardio Sunday am on an empty stomach (recommended by Lyle McDonald), you’ll have no trouble reentering ketosis. Your carb-up will break the monotony of your diet too, but be careful-those cravings can hit you like a mack truck during your carb-up. On my carb up, I do fine for the first 12 hrs, then just like clockwork, I get an urge to eat everything in sight. If you can get your way to work for you then more power to you, brother, but give it some thought. And I’m not so sure that the zone would be such a terrible idea after your keto as long as you don’t go hog wild on your cals, but I do like the idea of gradually working your way up to a normal carb intake too. This is what I plan on doing.