I’m not convinced that his girlfriend is trying to test him. I think she literally just expects him to conform to her habits.
When women are VERY insistent on something, they usually mean it. Not everything we do is some kind of masculinity test.
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That’s it. She has her vision of how cleaning should be, at which frequency, how the apartment should look like, what has to be done. Rules that I have to abide. And she has such an eye! She sees every detail, it’s impressive. Whereas I’m an eternal scatterbrain.
Agree with @anna_5588 here. This isn’t a shit test, it’s a woman with OCD tendencies who wants buy-in from her partner.
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What are some positive things you can say about this woman?
Im the only income in my house. My wife stays at home.
Lets say i want a spotless house, but i nag at my wife constantly because she isn’t buying in to my OCD tendencies enough, even though she cleans regularly.
Does it sound fine when i say those are my standards, and i treat my wife as @aldebaran’s girl treats him, or is this only acceptable because a woman is saying so?
This would be “toxic masculinity” if the genders were reversed, lol
It doesn’t have anything to do with male/female, though as a general thing I’ll agree that more women than men invest highly in the cleanliness of the house. But to need to wash hands upon arriving home and vacuuming more than once daily pushes past preference for cleanliness.
Also, in a two income relationship there is no “boss,” and there shouldn’t be in a healthy SAHM relationship, either, if it’s going to thrive.
I think @aldebaran should talk to his girl about the pressure he’s feeling and negotiate a solution if possible. So yes, a boundary - “I don’t feel I can sustain xyz” - accompanied by a conversation about where she can compromise. At some point the crazy cleaner has to take responsibility for maintaining such high standards, but then she shouldn’t have to clean up after him if that’s going on.
Question:
Ill assume you’re at least familiar with standard BDSM themes. The D/s dynamic is nearly always Male Dom/Female sub, and it is preferred by both parties to be this way - generally speaking.
You think this dynamic has no overlap with regular day-to-day life? You think women, in general, dont get pleasure from pleasing their man?
You didn’t ask me, but I think women take pleasure from pleasing people in general. Whether it’s because of society or genetic, I don’t know.
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I would argue evolutionary psychology reasons.
Women dominate the service industry. At one point in time, the female equivalent to STEM was HEAL (Health, Education, Art, Literature), in other words: men value things, women value people.
But the feminists hated the idea that men and women are different, so they did away with that one.
Now, women take pride in acting toxically masculine, and men are raised as defective women.
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You think you are making a distinction but you aren’t. Women don’t consciously do shit tests. They press boundaries. They see what they can get away with. Men do too when they can, but the social contract is far more likely to let women get away with it so they learn to do it more often.
It’s probably absolutely true that your girlfriend values cleanliness and has different standards on what needs to be done than you do. She didn’t make up a borderline OCD habit where she wants things to be clean to test you. She really does want things to be clean.
But at the same time, she is judging you. You need to set a boundary. Let her know that you can’t live like this. You are willing to help make things clean, but there needs to be an agreed upon objective standard and she has at least as much responsibility as you do for maintaining it.
I clearly remember an incident from before I was married to my now wife when we were working together on a project (details not important). She had certain things she wanted done a certain way and could be quite pushy. I eventually just had enough of it and blew up at her telling her I wasn’t going to do this and that. We weren’t romantically involved at the time and I wasn’t trying to pass any “shit tests.” I fully expected her to get angry and just didn’t care. Instead, she apologized and that was a turning point in a lot of ways. What I did was neither diplomatic nor tactful and was a bit childish. But it drew a line and passed a test that I didn’t know I was taking (and she didn’t know she was administering).
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It only takes a few instances like this to happen before a trend becomes apparent.
Women will never respect a man who cannot tell them “no” or enforce a boundary. More than that, they are inherently wired to test that men have these boundaries.
Innate Skepticism Bias - AKA “Shit Testing” is part of the female mating strategy.
Personally, I get tremendous pleasure from pleasing my man. Most of the women I know do - or let me qualify that the women I know who are in happy marriages take pleasure from pleasing their man. But here’s the thing, the men in these happy marriages seem to be doing the same thing.
I can prioritize my own happiness without devaluing his, because my happiness is contingent on his, and vice versa.
My husband is a masculine man and behaves as such, but as a feminine woman I enjoy that. Similarly, I assume he enjoys my more feminine attentions. I think we both enjoy goofy, overly-romantic efforts to please - just campy fun.
Masculine/feminine isn’t threatened by the lack of emotional submission. Sometimes we fight. We’ve been in a stand-off about stools for our kitchen island for ten years now. I want appealing stools (which we have, but which have been expected to collapse for all of the ten years) and he wants ugly, comfortable stools that swivel. I WON’T have ugly stools. At some point I was going to get Walmart stools to have around and he put his foot down. I peeled out of the driveway and got them anyway. We had company coming and we all stand around that island, which was tiring, so I was not able to respect his “NO,” despite that he outlearns me. We made up. Sex was not affected - but if it had any impact, it was positive. We each flare occasionally, we’re strong personalities. We’ve both been vindictive (e.g. 3 am vacuuming). It doesn’t upset the applecart, it just rattles it and gives us stuff to laugh about later.
Trust is the foundation, not an artificially imposed pecking order. We each impose boundaries, probably him more than me as I think I’m the easier-going (possibly he’d say the reverse). At some point where my bicycle is stored became a conflict as a result of his domination of the basement, garage, and shed. I found it in the spring buried under his bullshit, some of which is important and valid, some of which is not. When we argued about it I ultimately said that I’d park the motherfucker in the living room if I had to but my bike WILL BE well stored. It spent one winter in the spare bedroom and is now nicely, safely propped in the garage.
Meanwhile, I don’t throw his things away no matter how apparently broken they are. He’s only yelled at me 5-6 times in ten years, but when he does, I listen. (Eventually. After I yell back.)
If your wife is tearfully threatening to get a job (I’ve lost track of where this was discussed) she’s indicating helpless frustration with whatever it is that precipitates the threat. You’re backing her into corners. I think your single-mindedness is your greatest strength - it’s enabled you to be successful in numerous arenas simultaneously. But in this particular arena I worry that you’re going to single-mindedly break your wife. A spirited woman won’t fit into this box of yours. You WANT your woman to have spirit, it’s what will protect you and your children should you ever be unable to do so.
Sexy time is a time to assert yourself. Where you MUST have a particular outcome is a time to assert yourself. Where SHE feels she must have a particular outcome is the time to prioritize her happiness in order to protect the happiness of the relationship and family, and relent.
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It means dad will show up and bring some balance.
Shit testing, in my experience, happens as real commitment begins, lives begin to merge and boundaries are defined within a new paradigm. If she leaves, it’s because a line for cohabitation and coexistence couldn’t be defined. I personally viewed this stage as a period of mutual intentional compromise while assessing a real future. There were occasionally disagreements turned arguments while fighting over “line placement”, but disrespect was not necessary as part of the process, on either side. Not even when standing ground. Women will absolutely leave over disrespect, especially if taught to respect themselves and their space. It happens all the time.
Regarding sexual opportunity, there are different flavors. Attraction boils down to preference. We all know “the look”. I’m a white collar guy and keep the appearance. If I’m out in a tailored suit, showered, trimmed, wearing a fancy watch and looking put together in general, there is a certain vibe that comes with it and women who appreciate it do notice.
I also ride Harley’s for fun. I have zero club affiliation and no interest in one, but have been riding long enough to know people in clubs. Legit clubs, not Sunday riding groups. We are “friends” because we wind up at the same back road watering holes but some of these guys still scare me. Dressed down for riding, dirty and occasionally in the mix with guys who look like they would stab you in the throat for saying hello wrong brings a whole different set of women around. Women used to being viewed as property and disrespected. It’s normal for them. If they pop off and get slapped they’ll stick around too, because they don’t have anywhere to go and they don’t want escalation. Not because of some vaginal urge to be put in a box, but because they are weak people with limited to no support or resources.
It’s really a matter of birds of the same feather flying together. The women you want will leave you if you’re out of line.
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I think this has more to do with lack of better outside options or other constraints (commitment to kids) than biology.
There’s probably a negative correlation between a woman’s independent wealth and willingness to tolerate disrespect from her husband/partner
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I think the distinction here is that when a man disrespects a woman he won’t inherently lose his sexual attraction to her if she just takes it. The kind of men who disrespect and abuse their wives and girlfriends aren’t looking for a woman to stand up to them.
When a woman openly disrespects her boyfriend or husband, she is probably done with him and the relationship is in the stages of dying. The only thing he might be able to do to save it is to push back on the disrespect. Taking it will never help.
Of course, there are many women who won’t be disrespected and I’m not saying they should. And there are men who will take disrespect, but women won’t be attracted to them sexually.
So in regards to the subject of this thread, a woman disrespecting her man will kill the bedroom while the reverse is not always true.
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In context of the original question, is there a presumption that women who are disrespected by their husbands will continue desiring sex with them? Sex is a two way street, and if she doesn’t want to let him have sex with her, is the bedroom not dead? Or do we inject coercion here?
I agree here.
Just to add on to it, there are a variety of things that determine the power distribution of a relationship. Money being one of them. Some other things are looks, social status, personality… On the personality thing, some people are just more prone to being dominate. We can see this really clearly with dogs haha. Sometimes the personality of a small dog allows it to be dominate over a much larger dog.
Basically, most relationships have a difference in power distribution. Some small, some large. Most people have a preference for what type of power dynamic they’d like, or at least what they’d put up with. Not always a conscious preference, and it is variable based on what the other person has to offer (how overall attractive they are). But, with a large power difference, the lower power person may have to put up with more things like disrespect (not saying this is right). In cases of huge power imbalance, the lower power person may get put into their place. They can leave if they choose, but often choose not to, because the power their partner has also benefits them (they will have general power, not just power in the relationship).
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Relationships are complicated and there are lots of different possibilities. I think that often women who put up with disrespect in a relationship desire sex in order to feel empowered and valued in the relationship.
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I never said it was, i just believe the two are inherently inseparable; masculine is “doing stuff”, and feminine is “stuff being done to you”. It literally comes with the territory.
You keep coming at me and my situation but it continually sounds like you’re ignoring the actual dynamic i have with my wife. The Captain/First Officer model is working, and both parties have expectations.
Despite what you think is happening in my house, our good times have truly never been better - as a direct result of this dynamic. I’m learning to navigate the bad times better, as is my wife.
You’ve read Laura Doyle’s work, you know how this works (albeit maybe not from a position of natural submission… Doyle is more “topping from the bottom”). There’s no abuse happening of any kind.
Right, that’s what i mean by “willful submission”… it’s not forced, it’s voluntary. This doesn’t happen without trust.
Right, but you say that as if a “spirited woman” cannot put her modern feminist bullshit aside for the man she loves - and i promise you she can. I told my wife i don’t want her working so that she can be submissive to me and me alone; there is no one else in the world i want her submitting to, whether via workplace or otherwise.
A “spirited woman” is a strange new rebrand of “battleaxe wife” - which i will never have in my life again. I say “again” because my wife was that person at one point, when I wasn’t leading, and now she isn’t - because i am. Crazy how that works.
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