The Davies Debate

Off Topic
121

[quote]Chris Shugart wrote:
DavidL wrote:
That is hilarious how Eric Cressey all of a sudden becomes the ‘college kid’.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but is Eric not a guy under 25 years old attending college? Seriously, I may be wrong.

Look, I realize it’s just loads of fun to pick a side in an Internet drama and play “us vs. them” – whether it’s powerlifting vs. Olympic lifting, college kid vs. 50 year old coach, HIT vs. volume training etc. But in reality it’s never that black and white. It’s like the old web log article I wrote about politics, where I said I was a member of the Radical Center because extremists and people with agendas on either end of the political spectrum are both embarrassing.

Same thing here. Above I wrote about the good and bad side I can see of Charlie Francis. Then I did the same with Davies. And the same is true in the Cressey/Davies Think Tank debate.

Davies needed that. His non-answer answers drove me nuts too. As an editor, I’ve totally cut him out of roundtable discussions in the past. I was cheering for Eric about half the time.

But since I have no agenda and can see both sides, I can also see that Eric baited Davies so he could attack him. A lot of his argument was great, but in some of it he also came off as a snot nose punk – a college kid throwing studies at an older coach who bases his work not on lab experiments but on his 30 (?) or so years working in the trenches with athletes. Eric has real world experience too, but how much can you actually have if you’re in your 20’s and not out of school yet?

In short, Davies needed that wake up call and Eric came off at times as an unprofessional showoff. Davies didn’t want to debate with a kid throwing studies at him so he “lost.” Eric “won” but now many experienced pros in the field regard him in a more unfavorable light – except of course those who hate Davies for whatever reason. In the end, I think (hope) that Davies will see the common criticisms and improve. And I think that Eric will look back in ten years and realize he didn’t go about that in the best way. Both could probably learn a great deal from someone like Charles Staley.

But again, we need every type of contributor here: smart grad students and grizzled football coaches, lab coat Jedis and real world gurus, powerlifters and Olympic lifters, bodybuilders and endurance athletes. This is a Think Tank and I personally like hearing from a variety of experts. Remember, T-Nation publishes the works of Davies, Cressey, Staley and Francis: everyone involved in The Days of Our Lives, er, I mean, this particular debate.

I apologize profusely for this injection of reality. Back to the keyboard drama!

[/quote]

Verkhoshansky, Bompa, Francis, CT, Poliquin and Siff all have in the trenches experience and not so coincidentally they all have similar views on balance training as Cressey…

Cressey also can develop his fair share of strength. His stats arent to be sneezed at…

Cressey has also seen his fair share of training…

And reading about and being familiar with texts of the truly great and influential coaches must count for something…

Finally… What actual in the trenches experience does Davies have? He wont mention a single athlete hes trained… Unlike the coaches above who make what they do very transperant… Davies however is a mystery, he has no verifiable results…

So from an objective point of view Erics time in the trenches can at least be verified and wins be default…

122

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Chris Aus wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Its about someone making their living fraudulantly…

it’s about whether a couple of guys are lying about another guy or not…

Its been asked what Davies would gain by associating with Ben when a major clientelle group of his is apparently (according to Atomic Dog) soccer mums… (Why hed brag about dragging athletes through there own vomit when they are the people interested in him I have no idea).

What on earth does Francis have to gain by lieing about Davies?

Post one reasonable theory…

While your at it do the same for coach X…

I see no reason for either of them to lie…

Because it’s already been noted that CF is kind of a conspiracy paranoid sort?[/quote]

Noted by who? Do me a favour read all of CF stuff ie Speed Trap, CFTS, the forum etc the read CS’s diagonal summation and make up your mind for yourself…
Even if he did not get it from Francis and instead got it from Verkhoshansky dont you think it would have been nice to reference Verkho?

123

still no-one can come up with what Davies brings to the table?

124

[quote]elars21 wrote:
This is not just a pissing contest, don’t try to turn it into that.

Charlie Francis’ body of work speaks dor itself.

Staley, Charlie does give credit where credit is due. You seem to be of the opinion that nobody is really coming up with anything new in this field. That doesn’t mean you should regirgitate a man’s work and claim it as your own. Charlie goes to great lengths in Speed Trap to give credit where he learned certain ideas that he has incorporated into his system. He gained most of his knowledge first hand as an Olympic sprinter and as a coach working for next to nothing, when he could have pursuited his business career. He did this for the sake of his athletes, he cared too much. He wouldn’t forsake responsibility if they were weak and overtrained, and their performance was trashed. Pitt

I can sense that many of you like most North Americans feel that track is inferior to football. That does not matter. I don't need to defend track, it's simplicity speaks for itself. Athletics is the purest representation of speed and power. CF was brilliant at developing strength, speed, and power.

Isn’t that what a S&C coach is supposed to do? Or is he supposed to do kettebell snatches on an indo board or front squats on a swiss ball? Davies posseses the amazing ability to claim a stake in every popular training device out there now (bands, stability balls, indo boards, kettlebells, xvest,…) and still be stuck in the stone age regarding volume, work ethic, mental toughness.

 An article from Louie Simmons talks about how Davies implementing his "enormous volumes" of GPP work yielded an average improvement of .25 seconds for the 40 yd dash in 8 weeks. He also believes that all athletes would benefit form high volumes of such work. Guess where this experiment was conducted, you guessed it Pitt. I know exactly how he achieved these numbers as well. Some improvement is going to occur no matter what in Spring, as most players don't do much in the Winter except lift and recover from the past season. But the main reason is the 1st test was conducted after an "enormous volume" GPP workout. The second test was conducted after a period of lowered volume an while the players were rested.

GPP work is good when used correctly, but it is by name general, as in not specific. Hey Davies, you know the best way to improve football specific conditioning. It’s called football practice! Most football players already have the base/work capacity needed to play the game optimally. The goal of a good S&C coach is to get the athletes stronger, faster, more powerful and prevent injuries, that’s it! You greatly overstate the effect your non-specific training can effect a football player’s performance. An football player doesn’t gain toughness from doing squat thrusts until they puke, they get it from playing football!

Charlie Francis is one of the great minds in speed and strengh development who is willing to share his knowledge. You try to paint him as a beligerent malcontent always accusing others of claiming credit for his work. Put yourself in his position.

John Davies on the other hand is a here today gone tomorrow guru who just follows the trends. His resume is full of questions and the only reason he is so highly regarded by many here is because he writes for this publication. That is a vicious cycle if I ever saw one!

In Truth,
Eric Larson
[/quote]

you obviously don’t know shit about john davies workouts. for you to assume that his entire football workouts are geared toward “enormous volume” GPP work and void of football specific conditioning makes you an idiot. even if he amped up the volume in the winter who gives a shit? you aren’t playing any games. did you play college football? if not then you have no basis for making comments on how a program structures its off season conditioning. maybe Pitt sucked and they were “weeding out” guys who didn’t want it. i went through the same stuff at my school after my first season when we were 2-8. 38 guys quit before spring ball and we were 7-4 the next season. all the track pussies whining about volume all the time, its ridiculous.

as far as putting myself in CF position, i would never want to be that fat.

125

[quote]davidian wrote:
still no-one can come up with what Davies brings to the table?

[/quote]

probably not as many donuts as CF

126

[quote]davidian wrote:
still no-one can come up with what Davies brings to the table?

[/quote]

I was under the impression that Coach D’s stuff spoke for itself.

127

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
Verkhoshansky, Bompa, Francis, CT, Poliquin and Siff all have in the trenches experience and not so coincidentally they all have similar views on balance training as Cressey… [/quote]

Have I disagreed with Eric’s comments on balance training? Nope.

Did I question his stats? Nope. But Davies is a great athlete too. Does that make either right? Nope.

[quote]
Cressey has also seen his fair share of training… [/quote]

I would hope so. But have I even questioned Eric’s gym experience? Nope. Please don’t try to “strawman” me. That’s weak and you’re too smart to use that form of argument.

Eric’s life experience is lacking though. That’s no fault of his. He’s a young guy just getting his feet wet. His opinions will go through a lot of changes and variations by the time he reaches the age of Davies or Francis.

[quote]
And reading about and being familiar with texts of the truly great and influential coaches must count for something… [/quote]

It does. But who’s to say Davies hasn’t read a few books too? He doesn’t drop three references every time he farts, but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t read a few books.

[quote]
Finally… What actual in the trenches experience does Davies have? He wont mention a single athlete hes trained… Unlike the coaches above who make what they do very transperant… Davies however is a mystery, he has no verifiable results… [/quote]

I don’t disagree with you, but let me point out that if Davies bragged about all the people he’d coached then the same critics would be trashing him for name dropping. He couldn’t win over a critic if he tried. And he seems to have no desire to anyway.

Again, I’m not on a side here. I’m not a “Renegade.” I’ve never met Davies. I know that’s very tough to comprehend in these silly dramas, but it’s true: I see both sides of the issue and neither is winning me over. I could pick a side and run the other into the ground if I wanted, but I’d prefer to remain rooted in reality and call it as I see it – which will probably piss off both sides.

128

[quote]Chris Shugart wrote:

but I’d prefer to remain rooted in reality and call it as I see it – which will probably piss off both sides.
[/quote]

bravo, Shugs.

I mean, I like Coach D. for reasons that don’t have much to do with the whole Renegade thing–not to say that isn’t valuable.
I like him for the man that he is.
Good training ideas/help I get from that is gravy.
(Low carb, low fat, low sodium protein enriched gravy!).

129

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
davidian wrote:
still no-one can come up with what Davies brings to the table?

I was under the impression that Coach D’s stuff spoke for itself.
[/quote]

I think davidian meant…
Who has he coached? what has he done?

I will add…
What do his programs achieve other than GPP (dont dare say strength, speed, power or balance remember the other person being discussed is CF)?
Is it ethical to have NO resume?
What will doing a Kip get me with my athletic pursuits?
Is it important when writing an article to know the difference between eccentric and concentric?

130

The Case of Coach Staley

Please find the materials regarding the case on Coach Staley.

From Charlie Francis

Staley admits he met with me and discussed this very topic before he wrote the article, but claims I told him I "was exposed to these concepts by Verkhoshansky.?

What does Dr. Verkhoshansky say about my work?

Quote from the Speed & Power Mailing List, March 28 2002

In response to the question:

?Any list members having exposure to this concept??

Quote:

?Yes, I have, and would like to support Charlie Francis on an idea that was worked out by him?

Yuri Verkhoshansky
Ph.D., Professor, Academician, effective member and Vice President
of Department of Sport pedagogy at the International Academy of
Informatization(Moscow), member of International Association of Sport Kinetics (Poland) And President of Italian Section of International Association of Sport Kinetics, member of the International Sport Science Association (USA), Professor at the University of Tor Vergata (Rome), scientific consultant of the National Olympic Committee of Italy.

Apart from the fact that Staley’s assertion is not true, (which I doubt he forgot, as he was able to transcribe most of our conversation verbatim), it speaks volumes. In effect he’s saying: " I lifted this stuff from Verkoshanski, not Charlie."

My first and only interaction with Dr. Verkhoshansky was during my presentation at a speed seminar in Holland in late 1994, when I presented the Vertical Integration material there.

As I told Staley, Dr. Verkhoshansky questioned me at great length about how the high intensity training elements were being managed simultaneously. I explained the smooth transitions between training phases, the staggered introduction of the intense elements, and the rise and fall in emphasis, and, to illustrate, I presented the graph which appears on page 98 of the Charlie Francis Training Manual, first copyrighted in 1987. He helped to solidify the arguements and was very gracious and complementary.

I am enclosing this graph and a slide from a power-point presentation of the same material. You can see the staggered rise and fall of the elements in the graph- most clearly in the introduction of Max Strength EMS after the commencement of the Max Strength Weight phase, and the varying degrees of emphasis shown on the top of the graph for speed work - heavy emphasis 0 to 30, moderate emphasis 30 to 60. Look familiar?

Staley has re-named this “Horizontal Summation” but it’s the same stuff. Apparently he feels that changing the title allows him to help himself to my material (and, from his remarks here, apparently Verkhoshanski’s as well).

All that was required was for Staley to reference where his material came from, especially in light of the spirit in which it came to him. He could still step up and do that.
Chris Shugert from T-Mag tells you I’m paranoid. Perhaps this tale tells you I’m not paranoid enough!

-Charlie Francis

131

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
I will add…
What do his programs achieve other than GPP (dont dare say strength, speed, power or balance remember the other person being discussed is CF)?
Is it ethical to have NO resume?
What will doing a Kip get me with my athletic pursuits?
Is it important when writing an article to know the difference between eccentric and concentric? [/quote]

We get it; you dont like him, you dont agree with his training, now how 'bout ya fuck off.

132

[quote]
Have I disagreed with Eric’s comments on balance training? Nope.[/quote]
Did I say you did? NOPE… I replied to your post but it was a general statement so that most could read it. It was not a private message to you. Thats what PMs are for.

Of course not, but you did say he lacked real world experience… Turning yourself into a State record holder in powerlifting is a form of real world experience… You also implied that he is just a geek hiding behind a book (maybe you didnt and my interpretation was off, maybe not…)… NOthing is further from the truth…

Maybe I missread you. What does, “lacking in the trenches experience” mean? (maybe not a direct quote but pretty close…)

As Davies opinions will change over the comign years also (or reads a book whichever comes first :slight_smile: )…

Fair enough, it doesnt show though… and his methods as CT has said are not scientifically sound…

When has Poliquin, Javorek, Simmons, Tate, Siff ever been accused of name dropping?

I assumed since you interviewed him twice there was some form of meeting… at the very least you have corresponded…

See both sides of what? This could be easily sorted… Just get FIFA to make a public press release that they infact get John Davies to coach Diego… There ARE facts involved this isnt just opinion…

133

Here is a quote from a Davies article… Tell me honestly what you think?

Now, sinse when is concentric the lowering part?
Also sinse when is the lowering part the harder part?
Has Davies ever done a one arm chin? How would he know if he hasnt?

134

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
What will doing a Kip get me with my athletic pursuits?
Is it important when writing an article to know the difference between eccentric and concentric? [/quote]

This is starting to be a hell of a lot of fun. In fact, I may start a new column called “The Radical Center” where I look at both sides of different issues from an unbiased perspective. It’ll tick everyone off! Anyway, let me practice some more.

Defense: Davies didn’t present that as an exercise to help a person become a better athlete. He presented it as a test for general athleticism. You’re doing the strawman thing again. That’s when you simplify or falsify your opponents stance or opinion, then attack that “strawman” version of the stance or opinion rather than the real one.

Attack: I learned to do a kip when I was a chubby high school kid who didn’t play sports much. I can do a better kip now that I’ve been training hard for years and am in the single digits for bodyfat, but the fact that I could do one when largely untrained and not athletically gifted makes me wonder if this is a good test or not. It’s a fun trick mostly. Now that medicine ball toss kip may be a different story…

Did Davies mess that up somewhere? It happens. Dave Tate misspells deadlift sometimes, but I think he knows how to train for a big one, don’t you? Every great coach in the world has missed one of the “b’s” in dumbbells, but they all know how to use them. Shall I go dig up unedited copies of your favorite contributors and point out their mistakes? I edit Francis and Cressey too. Nah, that would be wrong.

Any mistake that gets through is an editor’s fault. In some cases, the mistakes occur when rewriting articles under deadline. Yes, TC and I totally rewrite some articles. Some of the best coaches in the world can’t communicate their genius in writing very well. That’s okay, it gives me a job!

135

Lets see…

Francis hates Davies, and, surely must know by now that Davies is one of the most stubborn guys around, so, he must realize that Davies is not going to change his stance on this.

Davies on the other hand seems to hold no special emotion towards Francis, and for the most part could care less about all of the hate-mongering going on as he’s confident in his values and training methodology.

The end conclusion I draw from all of this is that as has been noted a couple times by others, this is quite the waste of time.

To perhaps save this sad sad thread from being completely worthless(I mean even that LightPower thread gave us Vroom rapping), I’ll ask this…

Chris (or anyone else with kip experiance), is there any advice you can give for developing the skill beyound, “practice, practice, practice”?

136

Excuse my ignorance, im not familiar with the term “strawman” what does it mean?

Also the kip is a terrible test of athleticism… I can do ALL of those tests and am relatively uncoordinated, also I can not run fast or jump high, or do anything really (to a high level) but kips, Gibbons, Rx squats are a piece of cake, literally i could do them all the first time i tried with no trouble at all…

Maybe i am the ultimate functional training machine though and I can just “bring it” naturally…

137

It wasnt a typo… He eloborated on it… I posted the exact quote 30 mins ago… Should I repost it?

138

[quote] Chris Aus wrote:
You also implied that he is just a geek hiding behind a book? NOthing is further from the truth… [/quote]

Strawman argument. If I wanted to say it I’d say it. But I don’t think that so I didn’t. Come on, Aus, the stuffing is flying ere. I like Cressey and T-Nation publishes his work. No one is saying the words Cressey and geek in the same sentence except for you.

[quote]
?and his methods as CT has said are not scientifically sound… [/quote]

And I’m not disagreeing. Again, please don’t lump me into a convenient category in which I’m not even a part.

Poliquin gets that a lot. Even Francis does for not being able to go an hour without typing the words “Ben Johnson.” Not my criticism, but it’s out there.

[quote]
I assumed since you interviewed him twice there was some form of meeting… at the very least you have corresponded… [/quote]

I’ve corresponded with every person in the biz just about. And most interviews are done on the phone.

[quote]
This could be easily sorted… Just get FIFA to make a public press release that they infact get John Davies to coach Diego… [/quote]

You’re assuming more than 6 people in the world give a shit about what happened years ago (and that FIFA reps would even remember). If it keeps you up at night, make the call.

139

[quote]Snoop wrote:
Chris Aus wrote:
I will add…
What do his programs achieve other than GPP (dont dare say strength, speed, power or balance remember the other person being discussed is CF)?
Is it ethical to have NO resume?
What will doing a Kip get me with my athletic pursuits?
Is it important when writing an article to know the difference between eccentric and concentric?

We get it; you dont like him, you dont agree with his training, now how 'bout ya fuck off. [/quote]

I will fuck off for a bit, Ive got stuff to do…but In the mean time how about trying to answer my questions?

140

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, im not familiar with the term “strawman” what does it mean?

Also the kip is a terrible test of athleticism… I can do ALL of those tests and am relatively uncoordinated, also I can not run fast or jump high, or do anything really (to a high level) but kips, Gibbons, Rx squats are a piece of cake, literally i could do them all the first time i tried with no trouble at all…
[/quote]

I think we’re posting at the same time. See my post above where I explain strawman. You’ll also see that we agree on the kip thing.