The only thing that isn’t actually a bro split is a workout consisting of a complex that starts as a clean and jerk, then when fully overhead the bar sits into hooks attatched to the ceiling then a pull up is executed, the bar unhooked, then yoked for a back squat.
Full body each rep.
Super late but I was caught up and didn’t have time for a proper reply.
Not going to argue about the points you made, they’re solid and I agree with most of them, to some I can relate very personally.
Since it’s an interesting topic, some thoughts:
body awareness: this seems to be a big issue for many. While it’s normal for a beginner, some people seem to really have a hard time developing body awareness and “listening” to the feedbacks being given by their own body. It’s true that bigger compound lifts are more demanding in terms of technique, but I see this flaw a lot even in people doing the most basic, guided machine exercises - i.e. people doing triceps pushdowns with shoulders rolled forward and caved chests, bending their back on the leg press and the always so green act of ballistic trebuchet bicep curls.
I’m not sure why it happens, maybe lack of guidance, they don’t know what they’re doing and most importantly why they’re doing it. It’s hard to isolate triceps if you don’t have the prior notion that you’re pulling a rope down for the exact reason to feel triceps isolate.
Other than that, would you say it’s possible that some people are more naturally predisposed (for whatever reason) to do lifts as movements (like compounds) while other people are more predisposed to feel mmc and work more in isolation? Other than the usual basterds who are highly proficient at both or those who picked the short stick and suck at both (rip)
5x52 & co: I do agree with pretty much all of this, which is why I don’t think that bench - deads - squats should be the alpha and omega for beginners (or intermediates, or advanceds, for what it’s worth). As I wrote above, I think that they should work on big compounds but also on some less demanding/technical movements like chins, rows, dips, leg raises, back extensions and some smaller isolation movements too - other than the always useful prehab stuff, like pull aparts, face pulls and such, there’s also curls, shrugs, lateral raises, pushdowns, leg press and a lot of others that do have their place in almost any program. Side note, I think that a couple years ago there was a very popular modified version of Starting Strength, let’s say, “bodybuilding approved” - can’t really remember the name but people used it and it worked fine.
What I don’t 100% agree with is the part about technique - I mean, you said it exactly right that technique changes over time, and it will never be absolutely immaculate, but even in a scenario where someone can use perfect technique with relevant weights I don’t think that compound movements would be the ideal solution for individual muscles. This goes back to the premise of addressing beginners who don’t have extremely specific aesthetic goals in mind but more generic stuff, the usual “being in shape” - in this case, I think that the systemic effect of compounds, even with suboptimal coordination and technique, does the job just fine. Technique will improve over time, weight will increase, your body will adapt.
For someone who’s more demanding in terms of aesthetic goals (i.e. a certain level of muscle conditioning, hypertrophy, measurements and such) it’s obviously not enough barring someone with a highly favorable genetic who can get away with doing more generic work and still get certain results, but that’s obviously (sadly) not the norm.
That’s because people have been told by online “experts” to simply move the weight from Point A to B, i.e, “train movements instead of muscles”, which is why the usual questions are, “What is the BEST exercise for my ________(insert muscle)?” instead of, “How do I achieve better activation/mmc/intramuscular coordination while performing this exercise?”. Add in the misinterpretation of “progressive overload” and this is what you get.
Lol I don’t know. All of these things click naturally for some people. Others will have to go through different routes. Different people are wired differently.
Which is why I am not saying you can’t do 5x5. All I’m saying is that I can justify doing bro splits.
My point is that a 5x5 program forces weight progression too aggressively. This may be ok for a naturally athletic person who has a sports background or even prior sub-optimal weight training experience. Or maybe someone willing to pile on a lot of unneeded bodyweight(which he will most likely regret later), but it is not enough time for someone I described in the previous post.
The latter will spend normally be spending the next several months stalling and resetting time and again while still under the idea that he has to stick to the program because an arbitrary strength standard has not been reached. If he is only focused on weight progression as a measure of progress:
This will be unlikely. My rationale is in the previous post.
Which is why I am stressing building both inter and intra muscular coordination both during compounds and isolations, along with a good amount of hypertrophy. Build up this “base”, the real “base of strength” and technique can be easily learned, modified and adapted, especially if one has been exposed to different variations of a compound movement. Specialization in specific lifts can be done after all these have been achieved.
Despite all this, again, I’m not saying you can’t do 5x5. I just don’t think it is optimal and I’ve never seen a beginner in real life not spin his wheels for at least a year doing it before he decides to start asking the bros in the gym for help but that’s just my personal observation.
I’m not sold on that last point you made.
Almost nobody will have a great technique right off the start - I know I’m built to pull, the deadlift is probably the easiest big lift and the one I’m naturally more predisposed at. And yet, after one year of strength training, right yesterday I had to tweak technique once again. Does this mean that the deadlift didn’t do me any good the whole previous year because technique was not perfect?
That is what I meant - technique won’t be great at the start, but people still make progress and teh gainz even without it at the beginning. And they can work on improving it without necessarily reinforcing bad habits. As you said in the previous post, technique now won’t be exactly the same as technique two years from now.
If we base things off personal observation, I see more people who know how to squat that have no issues doing leg presses than viceversa. Actually, I’ve seen a good amount of people who can leg press all day and couldn’t even squat a dumbbell with anything close to decent technique.
If memory serves, there are four guys competing in my gym (one of them in WABBA, others I don’t know) and out of them only one has a good squat technique in which he gets somewhere close to parallel - which is fine, since partial ROM squats are a great way to build muscle anyway.
I’m not debating the effectiveness of doing or not compounds for hypertrophy or how should people squat - I’m just disputing the notion that focusing on isolation automatically leads to an improved “entry” into bigger compounds and technique.
Also, I’m not advocating for 5x5. I think SS (the book) is an incredibly useful tool for someone who trains without coaching and who wants to learn the big lifts, the mechanics explained are good to figure out what you’re doing and why. That is, as long as it’s not taken as gospel, there’s no such thing as “the best way to…”, regardless of what internet zealots like to profess.
The program might be good or not, I didn’t run it as it is as I didn’t run, say, StrongLifts (was that the name? Don’t remember).
I’ve never advocated for beginners to run exactly one of those programs - what I said in an earlier post is that I think anyone should pick at least one or two big lifts and work on them with any kind of progression they want to while focusing on technique, good bar speed, keeping the body tight and so on.
5x5, 3x5, 4x6, 10x10, linear progression or not or whatelse - just work on it, work on good technique, slow and steady. Adding 2 pounds per side of the bar might or not be too aggressive - this is up to the trainee. When you train alone there will always be a self regulation factor involved, at a certain point the beginner will have to question if he should increase the weight on the bar or keep it where it is and working more on technique. Kind of a small scale natural selection.
Another point is that almost anyone has at least ONE big lift where he’s particularly good at, predisposed, right from the start - coincidentally it’s often the one they like to do the most. That lift should be milked by a beginner, even if it’s just a single one of the big compounds, the amount of benefits you rip from being strong at whatever big compound lift are just too many and too good to pass them up.
This doesn’t mean that anyone could squat or bench 400 pounds right at the beginning, just that they are more grooved for some specific lift and they can push it more and seem to “understand” proper technique better than they do with other lifts.
This is something I’ve noticed fairly often, still by personal observation.
I have not made this assertion at all. I’m not sure why you made this statement. If the rest of your reply was made under the assumption that this is what I’m advocating, then I don’t think we’re going to be able to continue this since it will be like we’re speaking different languages.
I agree with this 100% as I posted once I used a 5x5 approach on my oldest. BUT I wouldn’t let him add weight until he killed the last set for 5 plus . Basically making it look like his bitch along with some other basic movements,
Its just occurred to me is that no one has actually defined the Parameters of a Bro split. As I joking said im doing conjugate approach with a upper lower splint. Which now some of the more dogmatic would call a Bro split since I am not focusing on the body as whole in one session.
I think bro splits usually refer to a body part split. Essentially one main body part per day, with a frequency of once a week.
The typical chest on monday, legs on tuesday, back day, arm day, shoulder day kind of thing or something similar
Lol the question was rhetorical … But you have guys whom even dog on a upper lower split. And I was mistaken it’s been already addressed