The Cure to the Frequency Issue with Bro Splits?

Or due to more stringent testing and further research, coaches and/or athletes are discovering a better way to train as true naturals. Many top competitors and coaches are beginning to use higher frequency even to the point of multiple sessions a day. The guys at 3DMJ, RP, Jose Francisco, Jared Feather look up the IPF and WNBF placings, search their names and you will see that many swear by higher frequency. The sport is evolving in both training and nutrition. I think that part of it is that guys are stuck in the past, you still mention Cordova and Whitacre have they even competed in the last 10 years???

**This is not to say that splits do not work. Hell, at the top of both natural and untested bodybuilding are the genetic elite they would probably grow from playing basketball.

Wait
 which sport are we talking about again?

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I’m an optimalist myself but tbh the difference between optimal and not isn’t significant. 10-20% difference for a natty is pretty much nothing. Dude with good genetics being an idiot in the gym would outdo the average dude with the best training ever ez. Seems kinda pointless to be an optimalist as far as natty bodybuilding goes but I find it good fun and helps my powerlifting.

Given time most people get near their potential at least muscle wise. Strength is different tho.

100% agree. Coaches like Mike Israetel and a few others have interviews stating just that but, that 10-20% is what can separate 1st from second. At the end of the day train the way that will get you to the gym. It does not matter how “optimal” the split is when you do not enjoy the training and are not consistent.

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Have always considered that as a difference in rate of gains i.e. you get to a certain point a bit faster. Where you get to or your max is determined by other factors. If your in a rush tho

I agree to a point. The guys at 3dmj don’t make their money by publishing articles online every week. As to top natty coaches,
 being a WNBF judge/invitee to all the big meetings held by the head of the federation, I like to think I know most of not all of 'em in some manner and Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single one advocating some of the ideS put forth on these forums recently.

The sport may be evolving in some respects, but the basics of training and nutrition really haven’t. It’s all striving for minutae so some authors hve something to write about imo.

Yeah, i like to mention Brian and Jim
Because they were just so damn dominant at a time when the shows were stacked, competitive as hell, and you couldn’t try to mAks your Reputation by entering your friend’s new federation and earn a pro card by beating 2 other people who looked like they walked out of a high school gym class. I’m fairly certain Brian lAst competed 2 years ago, when he won not only the WNBF worlds but the Yorton cup in the same year. To me, no one has touched such an accomplishment, and he’s still the man to beat.

(Jim once told me he lost money competing because he took less of a work load at his actual day job. How long can one be expected to do such a thing? -lol)

S

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I have a few doubts on the argument, for something that happened a few days ago.
Basically, a friend asked me what I thought about a couple of training schedules he was given at the gym (not the same one I train to). They are the usual pre-written gym schedules that kitchen sink stuff with a ton of upper body work and little to no lower body work in a bro split fashion over 4-5 days, mostly machine-focused.
It’s not the first time someone I know asks me what I think about their schedules and every time I tell them the same thing - I’m not qualified in the least to tell them how to train, but then they ask me how I train and to elaborate why I don’t like some stuff they’re doing.

I’m curious if what I tell them makes sense, the premise is that we’re talking about complete beginners, people with less than a year of training (and usually, crappy training) and with completely realistic goals, very generic - losing a few pounds of fat, being generally more in shape
 that’s it. It’s the kind of goals you reach just by putting a normal amount of work but somehow they seem to complicate everything and overanalyse everything. Must be noted that they are not coached, so it’s DIY.
I’m a beginner myself since I have close to two years of training, which is nothing, so it’s not comfortable at all to give advice - and my training is strength oriented, so I’m even less suited to tell them how to get bigger pecs or arms.
My points to them were:

-systemic growth: I think that the younger you are (in terms of training age), the more you respond to compund barbell lifts. If they stopped seeing the squat as a “leg exercise” and the bench as a “chest exercise”, they’d realize that those are full body movements when done correctly. This stresses the whole body in a balanced way and makes for a great efficient way to build a foundation;
-move their lazy ass: related to the first point, free weights force one to stabilize, keep good posture and improve mobility. For a lot of people, most with a sedentary life, being generically more active and improving posture leads to quick aesthetic improvements too, other than a better generic quality of life and joint health;
-they don’t have much to isolate: still related to the first point, they have no place in doing three different curl variations, hitting the chest from different angles and doing multiple kinds of lateral raises. There isn’t much actual muscle to isolate and stimulate, they’re simply lacking the foundation needed for it;
-they can’t handle a lot of volume: while they can go through tens of sets of machine work, like anybody, I’m always skeptical about the actual work they’re doing in these schedules filled with a hundred of exercises in tens of sets of 10-15-20 reps each. A beginner doesn’t do well while fatigued, that’s why he’s a beginner, he doesn’t have the technical knowledge and he doesn’t know his own body enough to get in quality work while fatigue builds up, which leads me to believe that most of their work is just a matter of going through the motions without much actual work. They’d be better off doing a few things, and learn to do them well.
-progressive overload: this is the hardest point to get through their thick skull. There seems to be a general belief that progressive overload only interests those meatheads who want to achieve world class levels and whose life only revolves around training. They don’t seem to realize that for any change, big or small, the body needs a stimulus, and that stimulus needs to be provided. We all know that there are countless ways to induce progressive overload, but for a beginner, big barbell lifts seem to be the most efficient way, again - big compounds, at the beginning, allow for a very steady rate of progression, while the barbell is the implement that allows to add weight at a quicker rate (compared to dumbbells and such).
Ergo, compound barbell lifts allow for the quickest, most immediate and measurable way of progression - just add weight to the bar. I think that manipulating factors like time under tension, range of motion, recovery times between sets and so on is too much information for a beginner, they wouldn’t know how to piece all these factors together and they seem to get confused at basic stuff already.
With barbell lifts, you just add weight to the bar slowly but steadily, and that’s it - you’re adding weight, you’re making progress, it’s clear cut and obvious and leaves no room for mental masturbation.

To wrap it up, this is what I came up with for them and told them that in my opinion, they would be better off by taking some time and patience to learn at least a pair of compound barbell lifts, using any kind of progression and rep scheme they want to use (linear, periodization, 3x5, 5x5, whatever) on those, while focusing on big bang for buck assistance stuff - chins, dips, rows, leg raises, back raises. Keeping things minimal while building up a foundation and throw in some curls, shrugs or leg press if they have a dire need for pump. This implies to stick to full body or upper/lower routines, usually.
Also told them to do some aerobic work once or twice a week (walking, cycling, kettlebell circuits at home, whatever, just without going heavy) and some mobility work - and ideally, to hear from someone more reliable than me on the matter.

But overall, it seems to me that most of these people - the ones who just want to be a bit better, have just some weight to lose and some muscle to pack and be a bit more in shape, who make up for a big % of recreative gym goers - should simply do the above. Some “strength”-oriented progression on big barbell lifts, some volume work with good secondary stuff, some basic conditioning and some mobility work. They’d lose some fat, gain some muscle, have a decent basic conditioning, better joint health, overall better quality of life - all things that can easily be achieved in, what, one year of decent training? And can be mantained without pouring blood in the gym for the rest of their life. It would basically take care of 99% of their gym-related goals.
They would also gain some knowledge about how their body works and gain some training experience that might push them in upping their goals - or maybe not, the important thing is that they’d make an informed decision based on the actual work they did instead of relying on trends or what a random gym trainer tells them.

End of rambling (english not my main language, have mercy lol)

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First of all, a “bro split” is simply splitting up bodyparts or combinations of bodyparts into different days and assigning the appropriate amount of volume to each bodypart. That’s all. If you see stupid splits, they were designed by stupid people.

I’m not sure why someone not training legs is a rationale for disliking the idea of a bro split. It makes no sense. There is no correlation. All the early 531 variations were similar to bro splits.

Second, “progressive overload” is rubbish when interpreted by noobs and will hold people back in the long run if they have this flawed interpretation ingrained into them.

No, you don’t grow because you subject the muscle to a heavier load. This is not how the body works. You grow because you have to expend more effort to overcome a heavier load. Hence, as you get bigger, and as a result, stronger, you need to increase the weight to maintain the same amount of effort required to cause further growth. This is why you can actually lower the weight and focus more on using the target muscle to move the weight.

Third, when you see those splits written by idiots on those silly “bodybuilding” sites, the volume looks excessive because all the sets are meant to be pyramided up in weight. This is how we used to train. When these writers copied these splits and published them, they omit this part for some reason.

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Guys, how about this. Do what you like to do. If you manage to get those extra “15% gainzzz” from whatever new method that’s probably been around for decades under a different brand name, take a pic and send it to Casey Butt.

You’re reading WAY too much in what I wrote, to the point it seems you’re replying to someone else.

Stupid programs exist regardless of splits, exercises, sets/rep schemes and so on. I wasn’t taking a jab specifically at bro splits.

I never said that not training legs is exclusively related to bro splits. I’ve stated very clearly that I’m talking about the (in)famous prewritten standard routines found in every gym that are, almost always, 4-5 days bro splits with little work for legs. This doesn’t mean or imply in any way that every bro split on the planet neglects legs.

As I said, progressive overload comes in countless ways and flavors.
If you spent your life on the couch and start walking 30 minutes once a week, it’s a form of overload. If you’ve always been in a range of caloric maintenance and move towards a deficit, you’re overloading.
I never went into how exactly overload works, what you said sums it up best - you’re doing more effort and forcing the body to adapt.
But that wasn’t the point, just remember the premise: talking about non coached complete beginners.
If you had to give them a cue for progressive overload, knowing they workout on their own, would you tell them to workout in a caloric deficit? Or superset exercises? Or do a 5 seconds eccentric phase, a one second pause at the bottom and a 5 seconds concentric phase on every rep of a said exercise?
Under this perspective, just telling them “add 2 pounds on each side of the bar” IS the most straightforward, measurable and simple way to add overload removing all autoregulation issues that a complete beginner surely has.

Still, my question is - does a beginner really need multiple curls variations, chest angles, side raises and so on? Even with a pyramidal scheme, I question what exactly is the guy isolating and working out.

Look, I started out doing bro splits. Shitty ones written by my own self, and I still managed to make progress, so there’s no need to jump on an armored bro-split horse defensively, I know they work and I agree with the OP.
Actually, while most people seem to concern about “low frequency” in bro splits (“you’re training each muscle group only once every 7 days” and similar statements), the main issue I got doing bro splits was overlapping, I was not informed enough to properly put down the right sequence of body parts and exercises, but at least I figured out immediatly that frequency is not effectively as low as it seems in bro splits.

I’m just asking to read what I actually wrote down and reply to what I said, not to what people think/guess I was saying.

I did not address this solely to you, which is why you did not get a reply icon(or something I don’t know what it’s called).

EDIT

You can see other threads like the one about protein synthesis where the OP does not understand “progressive overload”.

This is why I just tell people to do 531 lol.

I actually have a rationale justifying this but I’ll answer when I get to a computer later.

Looking forward to it, as I said, I’m all ears on the subject and I’m always uncomfortable when someone I know (friends, colleagues, mostly) ask me about “how to start”.
In fact:

This is where I end up too, but I think I sound biased since I’m running 531, lol

Best thread ever

I never commented on the thread you are talking about unless you think someone who has commented since is the OP. But if you wanted a definition. Progressive Overload is the process of overloading the muscle to effect positive change by means of load , time under tension, or volume. Ability to overload the muscle is based off training age of the individual and their ability to recover from the applied stress.

I wasn’t addressing you directly either. You got the reply alert because I posted in your thread. I was refferring to the OP of that thread. I am just addressing the issue of certain unfounded beliefs and terms used nowadays being misapplied by many people.

The thing about the term “progressive overload” is that it can be misleading since everyone is encouraged to use progression models(which I strongly recommend myself) nowadays. My reason is that these quantify progress and ensure maximal effort will be used or you will be crushed by the weight eventually.

On the other hand, it leads to excessive number chasing and the logical conclusion that you need to eventually start doing things like limit strength training when misapplied. Which will, of course, reap minimal muscular gainz since this will be mostly neurological adaptations. Which leads to the trainee coming to the conclusion that strength and hypertrophy are seperate entities and then he will start doing only pumping stuff after that thinking he’s training for hypertrophy, which will also reap minimal gainz. Which will lead to the eventual cry of, “Everyone bigger than me is on ROIDS!”. Despite all this, it won’t stop him from telling other noobs to go the same route he’s gone through.

Seriously, if you guys think I’m making all this up, go read the Starting Strength forums.

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Beware Ripplestiltskin!

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Alright,

Re: Benefits of starting with a bro split

  1. A lot of people lack body awareness, probably a result of an increasingly less active lifestyle or they’re just a little retarded when it comes to this like me. They do not know how to properly engage certain muscles during a movement, much less fully recruit and effectively utilize the muscle fibers of the target muscles, which is essential for hypertrophy. The idea of mmc is not just something the bros made up. A balanced bodypart split with a variety of exercises will allow them to develop this from the start.

  2. When someone starts out with one of the 5×5 variations, look at what’s happening. He starts off too light, which is not sufficent loading to induce hypertrophy. While the rationale that it’s for learning technique, 3 weeks of submaximal training are not long enough to get proficent in a movement. Then he’s fighting to increase the weight every workout thereafter, which leads to shitty technique being used if he does not have a good level of body awareness. It doesn’t matter how many times a week you do the movement in this case. All you are doing is practicing and reinforcing bad technique.

  3. While techique is being built and intermuscular coordination is still lacking, it is not possible to optimally recruit and work the individual muscles enough prior to technical failure, which sucks for optimal hypertrophy. Which is why I recommend the inclusion of less technically challenging exercises so that this can be done at the same time. Take your time to learn and gradually develop technique. It will not be the same 2 years from now, it will probably not be the same 2 years later. Attack all the other less technically and physically demanding exercises like a bro on ROIDS(just joking).

These are 3 points at the back of my head at the moment.

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@dt79 hell the Fullbody Zealots consider everything a bro split. Hell im doing conjugate at the moment and in their eyes its a Bro split.

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There was a time where i did all my speed work on saturdays after running a chest tris, back bis, legs, shoulders set up for my conjugate programming assistance work. Thats right full body and a bro split in the same week. Im lucky the earth didnt f***ing shatter in half. lol

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