The Cardio Thread

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]KiloSprinter wrote:
have you guys tried using Surge as a recovery drink from your endurance training? i have, it works incredibly well.[/quote]

Yes. I make my own Surge “gel” for my races and put it in my gel flask.

The weight training is merely an experiment.

The blanket statement of “weight training training is not good” is exactly that… blanket statement. There are studies going either way. But weight training is such a general term. I am using this season prep as a baseline for my March races so its more of a pre-season build then a final race prep.

The weight training is in 3 weeks on 3 weeks off stints. In theory, the cycling will allow me to build strength in cycles so as to prevent adaptations that will hinder my endurance capacity. I merely want to maintain the neurological side of the strength aspect moreso then the hypertrophy side of the strength aspect. Most experiments addressing weight training and endurance training have them on a 12 week full-body workout while endurance training. Logically, that wouldn’t make sense.

I am not attacking you but merely opening up a side for a good discussion. This is the first training protocol of this nature that I will attempt. So in a sense I see it as a good experiment to refine my training for the more competitive season next year.

I will also be making changes to the final 4 week endurance prep.

42

[quote]KiloSprinter wrote:

Anyone done any other tests? 30s wingates? 60s wingates? (puke time)

ill have to dig my stats out and put myself up for some ridicule.

well, I have data from my powertap. 30 second power was an average of just over 1000watts last time i did such a sprint. i suppose it would be a little lower on a stationary cycle.

60 second - best would be in the mid 700watt range. world champion kilometer track cyclists will do over 950watts average for a minute.

i’m 171 lbs BTW.[/quote]

Thats a good average power output. Ver good - what did u peak at? Did you work out your anaerobic fatigue levels?

Was that a standard wingate test? (30s on 75g/kg of bodyweight on the cradle)

Whats a powertap? are they mucho de nero?

43

just wondering if u feel the 3 week on 3 week off thing is actually benefitting you? Do you feel your keeping any sort of gain your making?

44

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:
just wondering if u feel the 3 week on 3 week off thing is actually benefitting you? Do you feel your keeping any sort of gain your making?[/quote]

I am hoping that’s where the Carbolin 19 will come in. I can build strength and intervals… fine tune the endurance… repeat.

45

My finalized 20wk program is on a new thread:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=626199

46

Pretty conclusive approach.

sorry for the questions but i cant help it…

i take it your already “in season”? judging by the first weeks start.

on the first 3 week buld cycle, are you keeping the length of the sessions the same? or going to add volume here? Are you planning on working the aerobic threshold through higher training intensities and increased training volume? Im not trying to get you to justify everything but normally build stages are much longer for endurance based sports ive looked at - although you do add another 3 week later on.

I notice your not tapering fot the sprint traithlon. Are you planning on using this as a marker for your overall training or looking at it as an event you want to win?

Have you experimented with a taper of longer than a week?

there are probably more but id need ages to go over everthing with a fine toothed comb.

How u finding the kettlebells?

47

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:
Pretty conclusive approach.

sorry for the questions but i cant help it…
[/quote]

I like it. It helps me fine tune.

aerobic baseline. Not so much ready to race as ready to fine-tune.

I was going more on the theory that if you are following HR the volume will increase as your aerobic capacity increases. As for the intervals, especially Scream Intervals, they never get too easy. When the protocol says “as fast as you can without throwing-up”, it never gets easy.

[/quote]

I do 3x3 week build cycles. The aerobic threshold (ventilatory) will be addressed more so in the Scream Intervals, anaerobic threshold (lactate threshold) in the TrainRight Intervals. While they are generally the same thing, the difference lies in the ratios of interval to recovery. Switching up between 1:1 to 1:5 keeps your heart on its toes. Sign of great aerobic condition is seen more in your hearts recovery then in your hearts pick-up.

I notice your not tapering fot the sprint traithlon. Are you planning on using this as a marker for your overall training or looking at it as an event you want to win?

I am under the assumption that a fat-load-based taper of longer than a week would have a decent performance effects. 1 week fat-load with 2-3 day carbo-load has been shown to be the most effective. These are the times supported by the studies. That is not to say that a longer taper wouldn’t work… I just have never tried it.

[quote]

there are probably more but id need ages to go over everthing with a fine toothed comb.

How u finding the kettlebells?[/quote]

I’ve already got a 36 and 52 :slight_smile:

48

This is a god point which is hardly addressed with everyone going mad for anaerobic sprint till you die intervals. All recover is aerobic so it makes sense to train that energy system in addition to the active recovery benefits of aerobic activity - especially for the types of sessions your going to be doing.

Concerning your tapering info - any chance you could pm me any of your references?

Ive got a shead loads of stuff concerning the KB’s. I Use them for some cardio now and then - they compliment bodyweight circuits very well too. The long clycle clean and jerks are a workout on there own. The numbers these guys (giriviks) put up at the top end of the sport are unbelievable. Still, not much that cant be done with a standard dumbell though.

how are you finding them? Whats your work rest ratio with the kb’s?

Im a fan of the minute drills. Pick a time frame - say 20 minutes and aim for 20 swings per minute. Should work out at about 1:2 rest:work ratio. Hard too.

49

I actually pulled the KB drills out of my ass ;-). If you have any good references or suggestions for the kettlebell drills shoot 'em back. I just don’t want to the KB to really take away from my other training as much as be a quick enhancement.

I will be making an adjustment to my 20wk program. Switch out the 4 week endurance for a 3 week endurance and 1 week recovery. That will bring the taper to two weeks; only one of which is fat load. Recovery week will follow that of the other recoveries.

I’ll PM you the references for the fat-load studies.

50

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:
KiloSprinter wrote:

Anyone done any other tests? 30s wingates? 60s wingates? (puke time)

ill have to dig my stats out and put myself up for some ridicule.

well, I have data from my powertap. 30 second power was an average of just over 1000watts last time i did such a sprint. i suppose it would be a little lower on a stationary cycle.

60 second - best would be in the mid 700watt range. world champion kilometer track cyclists will do over 950watts average for a minute.

i’m 171 lbs BTW.

Thats a good average power output. Ver good - what did u peak at? Did you work out your anaerobic fatigue levels?

Was that a standard wingate test? (30s on 75g/kg of bodyweight on the cradle)

Whats a powertap? are they mucho de nero?[/quote]

powertap is a cycle computer/wattage meter designed for bikes. SRM is another, but it much more expensve. I paid $700 for my powertap, pro model. SRM pro model is over 2500 i think.

It wasn’t a wingate test, just a 30 second hill sprint (the 1st of 6 sprint intervals that I was doing at the time. I could have gone a little harder if I knew I didn’t have 5 more to do in the following 8 minutes)

last fall I peaked (1 second) at 1770, or 1600 average for 5 seconds. I was doing a lot more sprinting then. I haven’t done any sprints in over month now, because of my knee.

I have never really focused on short duration power for ~1 minute efforts.

All my training for the past 6 weeks has been aerobic, with some races thrown in. At my last race on saturday, which I won, my average power for the final climb was 514watts, over 2 min 45 seconds.

I’m not in race shape yet, I really need to start doing the high intensity training to get there. But I am not peaking until summer anyways.

51

I use a Polar 625x with the Power Accessory. You think the PowerTap is a good addition?

52

[quote]TriGWU wrote:
KiloSprinter wrote:
have you guys tried using Surge as a recovery drink from your endurance training? i have, it works incredibly well.

Yes. I make my own Surge “gel” for my races and put it in my gel flask.

The weight training is merely an experiment.

The blanket statement of “weight training training is not good” is exactly that… blanket statement. There are studies going either way. But weight training is such a general term. I am using this season prep as a baseline for my March races so its more of a pre-season build then a final race prep.

The weight training is in 3 weeks on 3 weeks off stints. In theory, the cycling will allow me to build strength in cycles so as to prevent adaptations that will hinder my endurance capacity. I merely want to maintain the neurological side of the strength aspect moreso then the hypertrophy side of the strength aspect. Most experiments addressing weight training and endurance training have them on a 12 week full-body workout while endurance training. Logically, that wouldn’t make sense.

I am not attacking you but merely opening up a side for a good discussion. This is the first training protocol of this nature that I will attempt. So in a sense I see it as a good experiment to refine my training for the more competitive season next year.

I will also be making changes to the final 4 week endurance prep.[/quote]

I’m going to experiment with Surge during my workouts. I love that stuff so much, I just wish it wasn’t as expensive.

As for weight training, in season now, I don’t really think it’s a great idea to do much, or try to lift heavy. My bike training is so much more important, I can’t afford to have sore legs from resistence work. I go to the gym once a week (today, rest day off the bike), just to maintain upper body and core strength.

I am also trying to get my weight down to 167, another 4 lbs. I alreadly dropped 12 since march, and if I completely stopped lifting I know I would lose even more weight, more muscle. But I still got some flab on me, i’m probally at 5-6% BF.

My goal is 5.5w/kg at threshold, or 420watts at 167lbs. Hopefully that is enough to get a good result at the big races this summer, so I can get on a pro team, or at least noticed, for next year.

53

[quote]KiloSprinter wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
KiloSprinter wrote:
have you guys tried using Surge as a recovery drink from your endurance training? i have, it works incredibly well.

Yes. I make my own Surge “gel” for my races and put it in my gel flask.

The weight training is merely an experiment.

The blanket statement of “weight training training is not good” is exactly that… blanket statement. There are studies going either way. But weight training is such a general term. I am using this season prep as a baseline for my March races so its more of a pre-season build then a final race prep.

The weight training is in 3 weeks on 3 weeks off stints. In theory, the cycling will allow me to build strength in cycles so as to prevent adaptations that will hinder my endurance capacity. I merely want to maintain the neurological side of the strength aspect moreso then the hypertrophy side of the strength aspect. Most experiments addressing weight training and endurance training have them on a 12 week full-body workout while endurance training. Logically, that wouldn’t make sense.

I am not attacking you but merely opening up a side for a good discussion. This is the first training protocol of this nature that I will attempt. So in a sense I see it as a good experiment to refine my training for the more competitive season next year.

I will also be making changes to the final 4 week endurance prep.

I’m going to experiment with Surge during my workouts. I love that stuff so much, I just wish it wasn’t as expensive.

As for weight training, in season now, I don’t really think it’s a great idea to do much, or try to lift heavy. My bike training is so much more important, I can’t afford to have sore legs from resistence work. I go to the gym once a week (today, rest day off the bike), just to maintain upper body and core strength.

I am also trying to get my weight down to 167, another 4 lbs. I alreadly dropped 12 since march, and if I completely stopped lifting I know I would lose even more weight, more muscle. But I still got some flab on me, i’m probally at 5-6% BF.

My goal is 5.5w/kg at threshold, or 420watts at 167lbs. Hopefully that is enough to get a good result at the big races this summer, so I can get on a pro team, or at least noticed, for next year.
[/quote]

V-Diet worked for me. I got down to 7.5. I can’t get as lean as a road cyclist it starts to really affect my swim performance. In the races where I can’t wear a wetsuit, I really need that extra bouyancy.

I use Surge in my gel flask. Highly concentrated.

Anyone got a good kettlebell drill?

54

[quote]TriGWU wrote:

I use Surge in my gel flask. Highly concentrated.

[/quote]

I thought the idea of Surge was to really dilute it so that absorbtion was easy for the body to do, too concentrated and you would end up wasting the drink because it would pass right through you and not be transported to the muscles where needed.

Just a thought, I’m sure you have your reasons for using it like you do…

55

[quote]bg100 wrote:
TriGWU wrote:

I use Surge in my gel flask. Highly concentrated.

I thought the idea of Surge was to really dilute it so that absorbtion was easy for the body to do, too concentrated and you would end up wasting the drink because it would pass right through you and not be transported to the muscles where needed.

Just a thought, I’m sure you have your reasons for using it like you do…[/quote]

I carry four water bottles and 2 gel flasks.

4 bottles w/ water
2 flasks w/ Surge

I keep the Surge highly concentrated because sometimes I just want water. Other times I use Surge. I cannot dilute the Surge enough without spreading it over the 4 bottles… Hence I would have no pure water.

56

[quote]TriGWU wrote:

Anyone got a good kettlebell drill?[/quote]

What do you want out of this kettlebell drill? speed? muscle endurance? A different kind of cardio session?

what literature/coaches have you considered before designing your periodized plan?

57

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:
TriGWU wrote:

Anyone got a good kettlebell drill?

What do you want out of this kettlebell drill? speed? muscle endurance? A different kind of cardio session?

what literature/coaches have you considered before designing your periodized plan?

[/quote]

Mostly endurance.

Kettlebell wise the only author I have read into was Mike Mahler. I like his stuff, but I can’t seem to find a program.

58

[quote]bg100 wrote:
TriGWU wrote:

I use Surge in my gel flask. Highly concentrated.

I thought the idea of Surge was to really dilute it so that absorbtion was easy for the body to do[/quote]

Have you ever seen gel like GU? There are several brands that sell maltodextrose or whatever form of sugar in gel form in little packets you can pin to your waist. You can do it like a shot almost.

The thing is over long runs it is a hell of a lot easier to ingest a gel to get sugar in than to drink a sports replacement drink. Some people can’t drink all that liquid at once. So over long runs/rides when you need a lot of energy to pump in, the gel is both more efficient and bothers your stomach less.

I found when I was in pretty decent shape 2 years ago the timing that worked best for me was one GU pack every 3 miles. I am just getting back into running again.

There are no brands of gel out there that have protein added in in enough amounts. I have never considered using Surge and making a gel. Sounds interesting.

59

What about “energy system” training - has anyone had much sucess with CT’s approach regarding fatloss/fitness?

60

[quote]TriGWU wrote:
EMPORIOMICK wrote:
TriGWU wrote:

Anyone got a good kettlebell drill?

What do you want out of this kettlebell drill? speed? muscle endurance? A different kind of cardio session?

what literature/coaches have you considered before designing your periodized plan?

Mostly endurance.

Kettlebell wise the only author I have read into was Mike Mahler. I like his stuff, but I can’t seem to find a program.[/quote]

hit me with a PM - ive got some goodies for you.