As I said this should be sticked, but someone has to remove all the unnecessary post (like this one and my first one) to make it clean
Jasmincar:
Thanks.
What do you mean? Does a thread have to have only congruent posts in it for it to be sticked? I’m not sure how it works. I don’t see unnecessary posts in here. No one’s derailing this thread.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Jasmincar:
Thanks.
What do you mean? Does a thread have to have only congruent posts in it for it to be sticked? I’m not sure how it works. I don’t see unnecessary posts in here. No one’s derailing this thread. [/quote]
I dont know. but it would be nice to have that with only post with actual information.
Why not just link to this in the sticky we already got?
Not that the newbies goes there before they are told to do so, but it’s convenient to have just the one sticky to point them towards.
Don’t expect the “I’m 150 lbs and have done DC, GVT, Westside, and something my uncle made” threads to dry up in any event. 
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
Why not just link to this in the sticky we already got?
Not that the newbies goes there before they are told to do so, but it’s convenient to have just the one sticky to point them towards.
Don’t expect the “I’m 150 lbs and have done DC, GVT, Westside, and something my uncle made” threads to dry up in any event. :)[/quote]
The first six-month stint on WSB was awesome; it seemed like I was growing like a weed, especially in the neck, upper back, hamstrings, lats, and glutes. I think it’s a great compliment to bodybuilding training, provided that it’s not treated as a bodybuilding program! I think someone could benefit from it by doing it 3 to 6 months out of the year.
And let’s face it, nearly all of us don’t compete. So it’s not like anyone’s running the risk of not specializing. You can powerlift and bodybuild. At best, you’ll become fucking huge; at worst, you might not be the most aesthetically pleasing bodybuilder. But it’s not like your livelihood depends on this shit, nor is it likely you’ll win top powerlifting and bodybuilding shows anyway!
That’s how I look at it.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Jasmincar:
Thanks.
What do you mean? Does a thread have to have only congruent posts in it for it to be sticked? I’m not sure how it works. I don’t see unnecessary posts in here. No one’s derailing this thread. [/quote]
I dont know. but it would be nice to have that with only post with actual information.[/quote]
No doubt.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Zepto:
Dude, do you really think I titled this seriously - that I wrote it thinking that I’m the world’s foremost expert on training, or that I use the word “bible” here in a literal sense?
The thing with phytic acid has presented a problem for those with suboptimal nutrition as a whole - like those in poorly developed countries whose diet consists of a SHITLOAD of grains.
There are cultures that eat a shitload of polys. (In order to keep things PC–I’m racist towards no one, but god knows who you’re gonna offend these days with even neutral words like Amerindian, African-American, and mestizo–I’ll use geographic terms to refer to people. I’m Jewish and admit that in this day and age, you even have to be wary of calling a Jew a Jew, especially one that does some underhanded shit). Many lower income populations here in the USA, like Caribbeans and South Americans put a shitload of oil into their cuisine and eat at fast-food places and rely on cheap, omega-6-oil- and trans-fat-laden convenience foods (when do you see a Mickey D’s in a rich area?). I guess pointing this out is my own form of nitpicking, but it’s something I know. Obviously, these people do suffer some consequences of this intake. [/quote]
No I know that you probably just used that word because it sounded catchy and it does, but I just think that we should get a discussion going, so we can add to your list of nutrition, and perhaps training. I think that was also what MrPopular was getting at on the first page. Now I see dratner wants butter to be added to the list of fats, which I also think would be a really good addition.
So I guess what I’m really saying, and I did a really bad job at saying this the first time, that this thread should be used to discus what we can add to your post. Then make a new thread entitled The Bodybuilding Bible and have that stickied.
[quote]Zepto wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Zepto:
Dude, do you really think I titled this seriously - that I wrote it thinking that I’m the world’s foremost expert on training, or that I use the word “bible” here in a literal sense?
The thing with phytic acid has presented a problem for those with suboptimal nutrition as a whole - like those in poorly developed countries whose diet consists of a SHITLOAD of grains.
There are cultures that eat a shitload of polys. (In order to keep things PC–I’m racist towards no one, but god knows who you’re gonna offend these days with even neutral words like Amerindian, African-American, and mestizo–I’ll use geographic terms to refer to people. I’m Jewish and admit that in this day and age, you even have to be wary of calling a Jew a Jew, especially one that does some underhanded shit). Many lower income populations here in the USA, like Caribbeans and South Americans put a shitload of oil into their cuisine and eat at fast-food places and rely on cheap, omega-6-oil- and trans-fat-laden convenience foods (when do you see a Mickey D’s in a rich area?). I guess pointing this out is my own form of nitpicking, but it’s something I know. Obviously, these people do suffer some consequences of this intake. [/quote]
No I know that you probably just used that word because it sounded catchy and it does, but I just think that we should get a discussion going, so we can add to your list of nutrition, and perhaps training. I think that was also what MrPopular was getting at on the first page. Now I see dratner wants butter to be added to the list of fats, which I also think would be a really good addition.
So I guess what I’m really saying, and I did a really bad job at saying this the first time, that this thread should be used to discus what we can add to your post. Then make a new thread entitled The Bodybuilding Bible and have that stickied.
[/quote]
This thread is about how simple this shit really is.
When you start to add this and that and everyones opinion on this and that you end up with a complete clusterfuck and more than likely a complete shit storm like every other thread in ths forum
Nice work by the way Brick
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
Why not just link to this in the sticky we already got?
Not that the newbies goes there before they are told to do so, but it’s convenient to have just the one sticky to point them towards.
Don’t expect the “I’m 150 lbs and have done DC, GVT, Westside, and something my uncle made” threads to dry up in any event. :)[/quote]
The first six-month stint on WSB was awesome; it seemed like I was growing like a weed, especially in the neck, upper back, hamstrings, lats, and glutes. I think it’s a great compliment to bodybuilding training, provided that it’s not treated as a bodybuilding program! I think someone could benefit from it by doing it 3 to 6 months out of the year.
And let’s face it, nearly all of us don’t compete. So it’s not like anyone’s running the risk of not specializing. You can powerlift and bodybuild. At best, you’ll become fucking huge; at worst, you might not be the most aesthetically pleasing bodybuilder. But it’s not like your livelihood depends on this shit, nor is it likely you’ll win top powerlifting and bodybuilding shows anyway!
That’s how I look at it.
[/quote]
? I’m talking about newbies being turned around and jumping from program to program, I’m not saying anything about the validity of those programs.
I’ve no doubt at all that one can train as a powerlifter and grow just fine.
In a lot of ways I think this thread is better than the one we have stickied. That one is great for knowing what others did, as well as some recipes and many other things Im forgetting. But this thread is more of a general outline, something everyone can take away.
Plus, not as much sorting through, provided this thread doesn’t become 30 pages 
Mr. Purple:
Right, of course.
I was just talking about my experience with WSB for the sake of it, and because of the fact that it’s a very basic routine at the beginning level that newjacks can benefit from.
And keep in mind–like I wrote before–I’m not the foremost expert on here. Leave that title to someone like Christian Thibaudeau, Dave Tate, Lonnie Lowery, John Berardi, Justin Harris, and so on - men that have actually competed in bodybuilding and train people for it.
But I believe I know ENOUGH about nutrition and training for a regular, ordinary guy to get jacked! I don’t mind giving my take and opinion on things with these disclaimers given. So if I write somethings here that people don’t see eye-to-eye with, so be it; I am not perfect, don’t know everything, and am wrong sometimes.
I believe this thread is good because I outlined how EVERY successful bodybuilder trains. I also actually believe that EVERY program someone writes about or talks about regarding getting jacked as possible should be judged against the standards of what the most successful bodybuilders do!
There have been far too many articles in which authors write about how they have the keys to new levels of muscle mass and that their methods are far superior to those of bodybuilders and that bodybuilders just don’t get certain things - or that they don’t get bodybuilders. For example, Alwyn Cosgrove–someone who I highly respect and is highly intelligent–has wrote repeatedly something akin to: “I just don’t get split routines; they ignore physiology and make no sense”. Well, they can appear as nonsense to whomever and they might not be the most balanced routines regarding the physiological function of the body, but they WORK and have led to the development of the most muscularly obese men on this earth - FOR DECADES! So these authors and experts can talk about how flawed bodybuilding programs are all they want - until they’re blue in the face, perhaps.
For example, I think GVT is a bad program for pure bodybuilding. (And when I say PURE bodybuilding, I’m referring to training that produces a BODYBUILDER!) Why isn’t a good program? Because it doesn’t follow the guidelines I went over - what every successful bodybuilder does, from the dude who wants to get jacked to the one who wants to step on a stage.
After saying something like this, we’ll get authors and posters saying shit like, “Bodybuilders are close-minded. That’s why they many can’t progress.” Listen buddy - do you really think that after SIX fucking decades of using the guidelines presented here, that bodybuilders as a whole wouldn’t move onto something else if they weren’t working?! Bodybuilders have always been a step ahead of the game with muscle building, diet, medicine, and supplementation! Do people really think this group–with its track record, and an almost maniacal quest for more muscle mass and leanness–wouldn’t say amongst itself, “These split routines with ‘3 x 8 - 10’ aren’t doing too much good for us. Let’s move onto something else”, after seeing that their methods weren’t working?!
Alwyn Cosgrove is right, split routines ignore physiology and make no sense…just like Ronnie Coleman’s physique ignores physiology and makes no sense, it’s completely and utterly mind blowing.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
How to not fuck up your shoulders when benching…
- Keep your shoulders retracted and down.
- Press your head into the bench.
- Flex your glutes, quads, lats, and hams.
- Keep your elbow in line with your hands.
- Inhale on the way down and hold your air for the ENTIRE lift. No yelling as you finish the rep. You need the air in your belly for the entire lift.
This doesn’t apply as much to high reps, in which you might need to be more relaxed with form and breathing. I think these guidelines are important for a 1 - 10 rep range. [/quote]
I’m a noob at this. So plz bear with me. What you describe here seems to be in synch with what Dave Tate would recommend.
I’m however benching like this…except for the feet on the bench part.
- Elbows: Do you recommend flaring out the elbows or pointing the elbows to your feet like a powerlifter?
- Should the bar be lowered to your upper chest/ nipple line or onto your rib cage?
I’ve seen this video of Scott Abel. Of course you can bench like this, but I don’t recommend or like it. I like the description I gave above. But you have to do what works best for you.
I don’t see a reason to do a full-fledged powerlifting bench press with an extreme arch because the arch is unnecessary for pec building. (Who wants to walk around with stiff and sore erectors from benching?) I prefer and advise people to bench as above but with a slight arch and feet wherever they feel comfortable. Keep in mind that the farther you put your feet back on the floor, the more of an arch is created.
And as I’ve said before, if your goal is pec building and your pecs don’t respond well to bench presses, then stick to incline barbell presses, dumbbell bench press variations, dips, machines, and fly variations.
The people who respond best to bench presses are those with barrel like torsos and short arms. I have medium-length arms and a narrow frame. This was my chest routine when I was into bodybuilding:
Incline dumbbell flys (pre-exhaust)
Incline dumbbell bench press
Pec-deck flys (pre-exhaust)
Dumbbell bench press
I write this know that might get a bunch of people saying shit like, “Bro, why do flys first? They’re not a major exercise. You can’t make huge gains on them. And pre-exhaust is stupid.”
Yeah, sure - tell Dorian Yates that pre-exhaust is bullshit, considering he used it liberally during his competitive years to bring up a lagging muscle group or to reduce the load in a compound lift because he didn’t want to risk injury as his poundages kept increasing through the years.
My calves and chest have always sucked, but that routine I outlined above did a lot for my chest. Pre-exhaust did a whole lot for my back and chest. I’m arms-dominant. The added intramuscular pressure created by pre-exhaust really allows one to recruit the targeted muscle during a compound lift, which is far more beneficial than just TRYING to use the “mind-muscle connection”.
And remember - we’re talking about bodybuilding, NOT ANY OTHER form of training.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I’ve seen this video of Scott Abel. Of course you can bench like this, but I don’t recommend or like it. I like the description I gave above. But you have to do what works best for you.
I don’t see a reason to do a full-fledged powerlifting bench press with an extreme arch because the arch is unnecessary for pec building. (Who wants to walk around with stiff and sore erectors from benching?) I prefer and advise people to bench as above but with a slight arch and feet wherever they feel comfortable. Keep in mind that the farther you put your feet back on the floor, the more of an arch is created.
And as I’ve said before, if your goal is pec building and your pecs don’t respond well to bench presses, then stick to incline barbell presses, dumbbell bench press variations, dips, machines, and fly variations.
The people who respond best to bench presses are those with barrel like torsos and short arms. I have medium-length arms and a narrow frame. This was my chest routine when I was into bodybuilding:
Incline dumbbell flys (pre-exhaust)
Incline dumbbell bench press
Pec-deck flys (pre-exhaust)
Dumbbell bench press
I write this know that might get a bunch of people saying shit like, “Bro, why do flys first? They’re not a major exercise. You can’t make huge gains on them. And pre-exhaust is stupid.”
Yeah, sure - tell Dorian Yates that pre-exhaust is bullshit, considering he used it liberally during his competitive years to bring up a lagging muscle group or to reduce the load in a compound lift because he didn’t want to risk injury as his poundages kept increasing through the years.
My calves and chest have always sucked, but that routine I outlined above did a lot for my chest. Pre-exhaust did a whole lot for my back and chest. I’m arms-dominant. The added intramuscular pressure created by pre-exhaust really allows one to recruit the targeted muscle during a compound lift, which is far more beneficial than just TRYING to use the “mind-muscle connection”.
And remember - we’re talking about bodybuilding, NOT ANY OTHER form of training. [/quote]
Hey Bricknyce, a few questions about the above
-
Did you do supersets from the flys to the db bench or did you do all the fly sets then all the following DB bench sets?
-
you mentioned your calves sucked, did you find anything in particular to help bring them up
I definitely think incline DB bench is a great exercise for pecs. My chest is growing the most now that it has in awhile and the 2 main movements I’ve been using are incline DB bench and flat BB bench. Can’t say which one has had more of an effect but at this point I honestly am looking to bring my BB bench up as much as possible if for no other reason than to have a big bench lol
Brick, you deserve an award for this thread. although the concepts you outline are straight forward and not exciting or sexy. This is how its done. If this was the only thing beginners could read online, the world would have a lot more young jacked bastards. This is deff true and any one with any logic would observe this at my college gym. All the big heavy dudes are doing the same shit.
Monday-chest and tris, tuesday- back and bis, wednesday-shoulders and tris, thursday- legs take two days off then repeat mofos. Coincidently the guys that are not making progress and weigh a 150 are the ones that come in everyday swearing theyve unlocked the secret training and supplements to become jacked before spring break. Dude im doing rippetoes, DC, Max OT, GVT, Westside for Stupid Bastards, while the big guys shake theyre heads and keep it moving like yead dude your still a fuckin buck 50. sorry for the rant it just seemed extremely relative. and maybe you could outline a sample diet too. like when a jacked dude is supposed to be eating p+c or p+f. sample breakfast, lunch or whatever for the aspiring meathead.
seriously dude thank you
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I’ve seen this video of Scott Abel. Of course you can bench like this, but I don’t recommend or like it. I like the description I gave above. But you have to do what works best for you.
I don’t see a reason to do a full-fledged powerlifting bench press with an extreme arch because the arch is unnecessary for pec building. (Who wants to walk around with stiff and sore erectors from benching?) I prefer and advise people to bench as above but with a slight arch and feet wherever they feel comfortable. Keep in mind that the farther you put your feet back on the floor, the more of an arch is created.
And as I’ve said before, if your goal is pec building and your pecs don’t respond well to bench presses, then stick to incline barbell presses, dumbbell bench press variations, dips, machines, and fly variations.
The people who respond best to bench presses are those with barrel like torsos and short arms. I have medium-length arms and a narrow frame. This was my chest routine when I was into bodybuilding:
Incline dumbbell flys (pre-exhaust)
Incline dumbbell bench press
Pec-deck flys (pre-exhaust)
Dumbbell bench press
I write this know that might get a bunch of people saying shit like, “Bro, why do flys first? They’re not a major exercise. You can’t make huge gains on them. And pre-exhaust is stupid.”
Yeah, sure - tell Dorian Yates that pre-exhaust is bullshit, considering he used it liberally during his competitive years to bring up a lagging muscle group or to reduce the load in a compound lift because he didn’t want to risk injury as his poundages kept increasing through the years.
My calves and chest have always sucked, but that routine I outlined above did a lot for my chest. Pre-exhaust did a whole lot for my back and chest. I’m arms-dominant. The added intramuscular pressure created by pre-exhaust really allows one to recruit the targeted muscle during a compound lift, which is far more beneficial than just TRYING to use the “mind-muscle connection”.
And remember - we’re talking about bodybuilding, NOT ANY OTHER form of training. [/quote]
Hey Bricknyce, a few questions about the above
-
Did you do supersets from the flys to the db bench or did you do all the fly sets then all the following DB bench sets?
-
you mentioned your calves sucked, did you find anything in particular to help bring them up
I definitely think incline DB bench is a great exercise for pecs. My chest is growing the most now that it has in awhile and the 2 main movements I’ve been using are incline DB bench and flat BB bench. Can’t say which one has had more of an effect but at this point I honestly am looking to bring my BB bench up as much as possible if for no other reason than to have a big bench lol[/quote]
-
I never did supersets. Perhaps they’re beneficial, but I never liked the idea of doing a set knowing that I have to do something else immediately after. It’s very distracting and I think it might lead to some unintentional pacing during the first exercise.
-
I guess they’re OK. They’re not terrible, but never matched my hams and quads. I have very well-developed quads. Right from the start, my quads grew very quickly.
Of course you can bring up your barbell bench press with a bodybuilding routine. However, that’s “bringing it up”, not doing a routine that allows for you to bring it up AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. To bring it up as much as possible, you need a program that focuses on that. And the program I THINK works for most is the Westside program.
Here’s an example of the routine I did for bench press and upper body on a Westside program:
Day 1: Max effort
- Work up to a 1 to 5 rep max in a bench press variation.
- Chinups
- Rear delt raises
- Triceps extensions
Day 2: Speed day
- Speed bench press
- Rack lockout or board press (3,4, or 5 boards)
- Dumbbell bench press variation
- Row variation
- Triceps pressdown
[quote]Hazzyhazz24 wrote:
Brick, you deserve an award for this thread. although the concepts you outline are straight forward and not exciting or sexy. This is how its done. If this was the only thing beginners could read online, the world would have a lot more young jacked bastards. This is deff true and any one with any logic would observe this at my college gym. All the big heavy dudes are doing the same shit. Monday-chest and tris, tuesday- back and bis, wednesday-shoulders and tris, thursday- legs take two days off then repeat mofos. Coincidently the guys that are not making progress and weigh a 150 are the ones that come in everyday swearing theyve unlocked the secret training and supplements to become jacked before spring break. Dude im doing rippetoes, DC, Max OT, GVT, Westside for Stupid Bastards, while the big guys shake theyre heads and keep it moving like yead dude your still a fuckin buck 50. sorry for the rant it just seemed extremely relative. and maybe you could outline a sample diet too. like when a jacked dude is supposed to be eating p+c or p+f. sample breakfast, lunch or whatever for the aspiring meathead. seriously dude thank you [/quote]
Thank you very much.
Right - the guidelines I wrote are what all successful bodybuilders do. The only program that you mentioned that actually follows the guidelines is Max-OT.
Why Max-OT is treated as something novel is really completely fucking beyond me. It’s not a bad program, but I never understood why there’s a name attached to it and treated like something special. It has the same shit everyone else does:
- Work up to 2 all-out blast sets of 6 to 8 reps in each exercise.
- Body spread out over 4 to 5 workouts.
- 2 to 4 exercises per muscle group.
Perhaps I’ve missed some things, but that’s what I remember of it.
Westside for Skinny Bastards is a decent program - FOR GUYS THAT WANT TO STAY IN SHAPE or are training for a sport. As I wrote in the first page of this thread, Defranco wrote that it’s NOT a program for guys that want to get as jacked as possible, either for the sake of being jacked or for getting ready for a bodybuilding show!
I don’t know about Rippetoe’s program.
I have nothing but negative things to say about GVT and believe it shouldn’t be followed by anyone interested in PURE bodybuilding. (I don’t like to use the word “pure”, but the definition of bodybuilding is becoming more and more blurred.)
I think anyone interested in eating P + F and P + C meals should refer to John Berardi’s books and articles. That’s what I do, in addition to using the skills and knowledge I have as a nutrition professional, a dietitian. Read Lonnie Lowery’s and Lyle McDonald’s stuff too. After that, one doesn’t need much more nutrition education, except in the case of contest prep.
(Please–although I don’t like to keep repeating this–keep in mind I’m NOT an expert, don’t train like a bodybuilder anymore, and there are guys on here that are far more into it at this point than I am. Perhaps I’ll return to all-out hardcore bodybuilding, but I don’t see that happening soon.)
If you are one of the guys that follows the Berardi/Lowery food-combining guidelines, a breakfast might be something like:
Omelet (egg whites, added yolks, cheese, and veggies)
Fruit
Yogurt
If it’s a high carb meal it might be something like:
Egg-white omelet with veggies
Oatmeal
Fruit
Skim milk or fat-free yogurt
As always, there are some people that might come on this thread and start saying, “Do you really believe that food-combining shit? Lyle McDonald said he’s not fond of it.”, or “Do you really think newbies should be concerned with this shit?”
If you don’t like the food-combining thing, don’t do it! I do it because I believe in the concept behind it and it has worked for me and others.
Although I like Lyle McDonald’s work, he, and all the other gurus and experts, are NOT gods and I (or we) don’t have to grab onto ONE’S jock forever.
Now back to the communication matter…
I know I’ve done some ripping on some gurus on here, particularly about Scott Abel. I want to make it clear that I’m not a mean-spirited person out to destroy the reputation of anyone. Come to think of it, I shouldn’t be so pompous myself; it’s not like what I say is so important and far-reaching at this point that I’m going to wreck someone’s business.
I have a habit of getting a bit animated and exaggerated when writing and speaking on topics I like. What I don’t like–I think you all know–is ridiculous science writing in layperson’s publications on nutrition and fitness and involving complication and sophistication in programs that are completely inapplicable to 99 percent of the population.
I think that if a professional gets in a position in which he can write for major publications that are going to be viewed by a shitload of impressionable people, he better be aware of who he’s writing for. I’ve gone as far as to use the word “responsible” in reference to this position. If you get in the position where you can communicate in reference to people’s needs and VERY strong desires–like getting big or losing weight, two highly emotionally-loaded issues–then you’re responsible for their training and eating to a degree.
For example, if I were to write an article, I wouldn’t write things that are clearly impractical for ordinary folks and have a huge chance of not working, either because the material can’t be interpreted properly by most people or they don’t have the appropriate resources. For example, Charles Poliquin and Chad Waterbury have written programs that CAN’T be carried out in an ordinary gym where ordinary people go, especially at prime-time hours. (Ordinary means just wanting to get a workout in.) I like Alwyn Cosgrove’s Afterburn program, but some of the damn thing calls for FOUR exercises for different muscle groups to be supersetted. Who the hell can control a gym they don’t own like that. Who works out at special strength and conditioning gyms and private personal training studios! Almost NONE of the readership of fitness rags!
And with the advent of the internet, more gurus are finding it harder to communicate with us in a pompous, jackassy fashion because of forums, email, and blogs. As I said, I’m NOT a communications specialist; I’m a registered dietitian who took TWO communications courses - Nutrition Communications and Individual Counseling. But I like what Richard Edelman of Edelman PR–a firm that employs dietitians for a lot of nutrition communications work–said in an interview. Up until the '90s, it was as if experts were talking like Moses talking down from a mountain. Now, because of the internet, people can’t do that. You can’t talk down to people or too pompously. You can’t fool them or talk down to them.
And that’s why I created this thread. There has to be some reasoning at the end of all the clutter being created by so much goddamn information and the whole guru phenomenon.