So lets talk about rest-pause.
IMO, rest pause is the most effective way to gain strength. Anyone else have experience with these?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
So lets talk about rest-pause.
IMO, rest pause is the most effective way to gain strength. Anyone else have experience with these?[/quote]
Yep, I use these quite frequently. Just for comparison’s sake, I’ll compare them to drop sets as an intensity technique. I think that rest-pausees are a great way to buil strength, the best right after low volume / high weight stuff.
I do like them a lot compared to drop sets, because sometimes to me it seems like drop sets are more of a fatiguing technique, compared to rest-pause, which really make me dig deep and grind out some more reps. I like to do these with heavy exercises, but not necessarily the big 3.
Examples include: Rows of any kind, lat pull downs / pull backs, db presses, military presses, and even heavy curls. I’ll occasionally use them for tricep moves, but I’d mostly limit them to close-grip or skullcrushers.
[quote]shffl wrote:
whats everyones opinion on reverse grip bench press? its something i dont see a lot of people doing often. great tricep builder? or potentially harmful if done improperly [/quote]
I know it’s already been discussed, but I wanted to add that they’re not nearly as awkward as you might think watching them, especially after spending a session getting comfortable with them. Even freeweight they feel pretty good to me, though as Scott mentioned they don’t emphasize the triceps as much that way.
Something I’ve always wanted to discuss: I’ve seen a lot of hefty lifters focus entirely on gaining as much muscle as possible by gaining significant strength on various exercises (trying to double or triple poundage) while eating enough to gain strength from session to session and sometimes they get really heavy.
EDIT::I would like to add that the intent is to gain as much muscle mass as possible by greatly increasing the weight on the bar, not just to gain strength. This is also from a bodybuilding standpoint but the primary concern is not to look lean while building up mass. That means including isolation exericses for lagging bodyparts and so forth.
One of the big guys at my gym went all the way to 300 pounds (obviously at considerably higher body fat than usual) but made sure he was able to flat press the 150’s for reps (dumbbell), seated shoulder the 120’s, row 300-350 for reps, deadlift 450-500 (started training with the 45’s and deadlifting 205 many years back). He never stopped the “gaining size and strength” even if he saw himself getting sloppy aside from raising cardio, iodine supplementation, limiting carbs etc. Once he was as strong as he wanted to be/had as much SIZE as he wanted at that point he decided to cut down slowly till he was as ripped as he wanted to be.
If you get most of your information from this site, here are the arguments against such an approach:
- Getting that heavy at higher body fat would be unhealthy even if temporary.
- The loose skin issue that comes up and possible addition of new fat cells.
- While cutting down he may end up losing
MOST if not all his hard earned muscle gains. - Apparently at a magical cut-of point for body fat, you start gaining three pounds of fat for every pound of LBM regardless of how well you train and eat.
While I don;t try to argue with 1 and 2, my main issue is with point 3 and 4.
Does a “fatass” who was at some point able to press the 150’s for reps need to worry about “losing his gains”. Reason being that it will take years anyway to get to that point, and when you do get to that point, you can never get back to square one without seriously TRYING to lose your gains.
Back to the question o the soft and hefty lifter…yes, he may lose muscle while dieting but by lifting hard and proper PWO he should be able to hold on to a large portion of his gains. Higher body fat simply means dieting longer.
Also at the end of his “cut” by raising calories, wouldn;t the anabolic rebound of increasing calories slowly return most of his “lost” muscle mass?
The reason I am asking this is simply because I think this is what keeps people from sticking with a mass gaining phase long enough to make a difference.
I think that you can never go wrong with focusing on weight on the bar as the primary variable. When you use this indicator you won;t be tempted to start cutting since you will just be foccussing on gaining strength and muscle mass, and limiting fat gain using a variety of tricks.
And as far as point 4 is concerned, the arguments against gaining muscle at a higher body fat: lowered insulin sensitivity band lowered anabolic hormones being the main issues. THere are ways to improve that: increase fiber content per meal, distribute meals even more thinly throughout the day, add cinnamon and fish oil to carb-containing meals. Also fenugreek (methi), an Indian herb has been used to treat diabetics for centuries in India - this is now being marketed by Poliquin as fenuplex!
And for staying anabolic, adding tribulus etc to your regimen would possibly counteract the effect of being fatter/softer than you may need to be for optimum anabolism.
My point is there’s always things that you can do to tilt the balance in favor of gaining muscle no matter what.
What do you guys think?
[quote]rbpowerhouse wrote:
What he said…[/quote]
Well, okay. I have a few different views on this opinion. If your primary goal is strength, I can see how indulgence and a bit more excess BF would be necessary to really nail those heavy weights. In another regard, I think it’s each person’s responsibility to not let themselves go TOO much.
In my personal experience losing weight, I did lose significant strength and muscle during my time, but I did mine for essentially a year without stopping. I think even a strength athlete should cycle things fairly responsibly, and take at least a month to work on his aesthetics a bit (if you’re in better shape, then you have a better capacity to have more muscular endurance, no?) Granted, it would possibly mean a slight diminishing in strength, but I don’t think that’s too much to sacrifice to ‘get back on track’ some.
Again, I may have a bad opinion about this because I’m a bit more into the bb thing, but that was just my thought on the issue.
Just a quick question, no huge debate needed, but what’s everyone’s reverse-grip bench weights like compared to their normal bench or close-grip? Mine is somewhere between both, but I’ve seen some (rather large) guys at my old gym who used weight that was within 20 lbs of their rep weight for bench.
I think rest pause is a superior technique when used wisely that will increase both strength and size. It’s also a good way to break past a certain strength plateau. RP along with dropsets are two great techniques to incorporate into training session. You get to do more, lift more, within a shorter time interval!
[quote]rbpowerhouse wrote:
Something I’ve always wanted to discuss: I’ve seen a lot of hefty lifters focus entirely on gaining as much muscle as possible by gaining significant strength on various exercises (trying to double or triple poundage) while eating enough to gain strength from session to session and sometimes they get really heavy.
EDIT::I would like to add that the intent is to gain as much muscle mass as possible by greatly increasing the weight on the bar, not just to gain strength.
One of the big guys at my gym went all the way to 300 pounds (obviously at considerably higher body fat than usual) but made sure he was able to flat press the 150’s for reps (dumbbell), seated shoulder the 120’s, row 300-350 for reps, deadlift 450-500 (started training with the 45’s and deadlifting 205 many years back). He never stopped the “gaining size and strength” even if he saw himself getting sloppy aside from raising cardio, iodine supplementation, limiting carbs etc. Once he was as strong as he wanted to be/had as much SIZE as he wanted at that point he decided to cut down slowly till he was as ripped as he wanted to be.
If you get most of your information from this site, here are the arguments against such an approach:
- Getting that heavy at higher body fat would be unhealthy even if temporary.
- The loose skin issue that comes up and possible addition of new fat cells.
- While cutting down he may end up losing
MOST if not all his hard earned muscle gains. - Apparently at a magical cut-of point for body fat, you start gaining three pounds of fat for every pound of LBM regardless of how well you train and eat.
While I don;t try to argue with 1 and 2, my main issue is with point 3 and 4.
Does a “fatass” who was at some point able to press the 150’s for reps need to worry about “losing his gains”. Reason being that it will take years anyway to get to that point, and when you do get to that point, you can never get back to square one without seriously TRYING to lose your gains.
Back to the question o the soft and hefty lifter…yes, he may lose muscle while dieting but by lifting hard and proper PWO he should be able to hold on to a large portion of his gains. Higher body fat simply means dieting longer.
Also at the end of his “cut” by raising calories, wouldn;t the anabolic rebound of increasing calories slowly return most of his “lost” muscle mass?
The reason I am asking this is simply because I think this is what keeps people from sticking with a mass gaining phase long enough to make a difference.
I think that you can never go wrong with focusing on weight on the bar as the primary variable. When you use this indicator you won;t be tempted to start cutting since you will just be foccussing on gaining strength and muscle mass, and limiting fat gain using a variety of tricks.
And as far as point 4 is concerned, the arguments against gaining muscle at a higher body fat: lowered insulin sensitivity band lowered anabolic hormones being the main issues. THere are ways to improve that: increase fiber content per meal, distribute meals even more thinly throughout the day, add cinnamon and fish oil to carb-containing meals. Also fenugreek (methi), an Indian herb has been used to treat diabetics for centuries in India - this is now being marketed by Poliquin as fenuplex!
And for staying anabolic, adding tribulus etc to your regimen would possibly counteract the effect of being fatter/softer than you may need to be for optimum anabolism.
My point is there’s always things that you can do to tilt the balance in favor of gaining muscle no matter what.
What do you guys think?[/quote]
I used to think this was the way to do it. But I never had the balls or money to actually try it.
The first time I saw this idea was when reading one of Dante’s earlier posts where he said something along the lines of “Sumo wrestlers have more LBM than the largest bodybuilders. So the fastest way to get from point A to point B would be to take a couple years, pound the food and get shit strong” much like what you are talking about.
Recently, a top amateur , Trey Brewer, decided to give this method a go.
It wasn’t pretty.
He got bigger - no doubt - but his weaknesses, namely his arms and back were still weaknesses.
And don’t even get me started on the stretches marks on his chest. To me, this is the biggest problem I have with it. There is NOTHING you can do about those nasty stretch marks (and they are NASTY).
I agree with you that there are things you can do to minimise the hormonal changes that accompany higher bodyfats but, realistically, just how much clean food can you down when your tipping the scales at 300lbs?
Here’s what Dante said when he saw what Trey was doing this offseason:
"Here is how I look at it. I look at this like I look at Steve Kuclo…who behind closed doors, some people were giving him guff for going up to 290 pounds that one year with Justin harris. Well he competed and won the motor city and then placed well in the North American (all at around 242 pounds)…yet people were dissapointed in his NA placing…as if he should of dominated the whole show, which I couldnt comprehend at all. 22 years old!
Same thing with Trey Brewer, this guy is 22 years old. Does anyone here think he is going to win the nationals this year? I sure as heck dont. I think he will probably place in the top 8 somewhere and that will be a huge accomplishment for 22 years old. He sure isnt going to be outsized up there. Yet I believe a great many people on these boards will label him as a dissapointment if he doesnt sweep the Nationals.
Columbusdude I see you creating a large amount of posts over at Getbig and over here bashing this guy left and right…yet some of the very same people you say you are impressed by (named in this post) are astonished by the size Trey Brewer has accumalated (in person). I guess you have your own personal agenda of why you bash this guy left and right…to each his own."
And this is what he said after seeing the attached pic:
"Well I am surprised as hell too that he is 9 weeks out and looking like that.
Alex A, Il be the first guy to man up and say “Yep you were right in this case…I thought he would be dieting hard from 20 weeks out but something got lost along the way because what he looks like at 9 weeks out is what he should of been looking like starting dieting at 20 weeks out”
I got no qualms in saying “You were right Alex”
And I am seeing gains in the triceps but not in the back."
And to add to that post, if I were 300lbs I’d be looking to move a little more weight (at least) than what you posted.
For instance, my old training partner who is 192lbs lifts close to those numbers.
Right, just to make it clear, thats not me. I weigh around 190 soft and move nowhere near those numbers (can barely bench the 95’s on a flat bench and deadlift less than 400).
Your friend must be very strong for his size if he can move the 150’s at a bodyweight of 192 and there’s no way in hell everyone can match that at a bodyweight of 192 imo.
Different people have deifferent levers and mechnical advantages and fiber types etc. But the question is simply, ow heavy do you need to get to gain enough muscle. YOu either look for the optimal way to do that or keep adding size and strength - all the time adding cardio and supplements and dietary measures like carb timing etc to limit fat gain - till you are as muscled and strong as you need, and then try to drop the fat.
My point was simply, that every guy may not add the same amount of fat while getting to a certain amount of size and strength. So the guy in my gym definitely does not have good relative strength at 300 pounds but has put on enough muscle to get to that stage. When he adds mass again after cutting down (and losing size and strength), wouldn;t he get back to that strength and muscle quickly nd with almost no fat gain thanks to muscle memory? Its easier to rebuild muscle rather than build it in the first place.
I see what youre saying with Brewer but wouldn;t you say that bulking up was somehow responsible for his having as much muscle as he does NOW?
And about his weaknesses remaining weaknesses, wouldn;t that be chalked up to poor exercise selection? If my biceps were unresponsive I would try to gain as much strength on the dumbbell curl for e.g. in addition to everythign else while bulking up.
EDIT: and as far as stretch marks, in at least my case, my body is fileld with stretch marks from when I cut down from 220@40% to 165@15% in my first year of training using Afterburn and hypermetabolism and cocoa butter and stuff makes a big difference as far as visibility is concerned. JMO.
[quote]Brendan Ryan wrote:
And to add to that post, if I were 300lbs I’d be looking to move a little more weight (at least) than what you posted.
For instance, my old training partner who is 192lbs lifts close to those numbers.
[/quote]
To be fair, Brewer looks a hell of a lot better in shape than he does in that picture…which is a guest posing appearance he probably should have skipped.
The guy has some UNREAL legs.
[quote]rbpowerhouse wrote:
Right, just to make it clear, thats not me. I weigh around 190 soft and move nowhere near those numbers (can barely bench the 95’s on a flat bench and deadlift less than 400).
Your friend must be very strong for his size if he can move the 150’s at a bodyweight of 192 and there’s no way in hell everyone can match that at a bodyweight of 192 imo.
Different people have deifferent levers and mechnical advantages and fiber types etc. But the question is simply, ow heavy do you need to get to gain enough muscle. YOu either look for the optimal way to do that or keep adding size and strength - all the time adding cardio and supplements and dietary measures like carb timing etc to limit fat gain - till you are as muscled and strong as you need, and then try to drop the fat.
My point was simply, that every guy may not add the same amount of fat while getting to a certain amount of size and strength. So the guy in my gym definitely does not have good relative strength at 300 pounds but has put on enough muscle to get to that stage. When he adds mass again after cutting down (and losing size and strength), wouldn;t he get back to that strength and muscle quickly nd with almost no fat gain thanks to muscle memory? Its easier to rebuild muscle rather than build it in the first place.
I see what youre saying with Brewer but wouldn;t you say that bulking up was somehow responsible for his having as much muscle as he does NOW?
And about his weaknesses remaining weaknesses, wouldn;t that be chalked up to poor exercise selection? If my biceps were unresponsive I would try to gain as much strength on the dumbbell curl for e.g. in addition to everythign else while bulking up.
EDIT: and as far as stretch marks, in at least my case, my body is fileld with stretch marks from when I cut down from 220@40% to 165@15% in my first year of training using Afterburn and hypermetabolism and cocoa butter and stuff makes a big difference as far as visibility is concerned. JMO.
Brendan Ryan wrote:
And to add to that post, if I were 300lbs I’d be looking to move a little more weight (at least) than what you posted.
For instance, my old training partner who is 192lbs lifts close to those numbers.
[/quote]
I know it’s not you.
I agree with you about my partner. He’s very strong but he worked up to that. And he didn’t have to eat as massive as the guy in your example.
Strength is primarily neural. So just focusing on increasing weight on the bar is not enough to insure MUSCLE gains.
He could be getting stronger due to better leverages (shorter distance pressed on the bench, wider base for squats etc.)
I’m not saying your wrong. In fact, you’re right. He someone took the time to get insanely strong and pound a ton of food everyday and then diet (for presumably a LONG time) they could regain the muscle (not necessarily all of the strength due to the leverage differences I mentioned earlier) at a respectable bodyfat.
Every method has it’s ups and downs.
If you wanted to just be as strong (absolute strength, not relative) as you could, then this is a good method.
If you wanted to gain as much muscle as you could in as short a time as possible, then this is a good method.
If you wanted to live a long time, then this is a bad method.
If you wanted to impress women, then this is a bad method.
Finally (and most importantly - to me at least), if you wanted to be a great bodybuilder, then this is a debatable method.
Stretch marks are not pretty.
And spending a large amount of time at such a high bodyfat is going to make it extremely hard to get into stage ready condition.
BUT it will definitely add some size to your frame.
his legs are insane. does anyone know what his numbers are like?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
To be fair, Brewer looks a hell of a lot better in shape than he does in that picture…which is a guest posing appearance he probably should have skipped.
The guy has some UNREAL legs.[/quote]
Before the bulking adventure.
Look at them quads!
he must have to carry a roll of paper towels around to wipe the blood off of his thighs from walking. i want legs like that.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
To be fair, Brewer looks a hell of a lot better in shape than he does in that picture…which is a guest posing appearance he probably should have skipped.
The guy has some UNREAL legs.[/quote]
Yes, I was wondering. Looking at that pic I was thinking that it has to be a guest pose. If that was him in a competition it must’ve been from a looong time ago. lol
His legs are sick and to come in lean at the weight he is and at the age he is, is unreal. He will be a top pro contender in the future. Definitely some great genes in that pool. lol
Gerdy
[quote]Brendan Ryan wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
To be fair, Brewer looks a hell of a lot better in shape than he does in that picture…which is a guest posing appearance he probably should have skipped.
The guy has some UNREAL legs.
Before the bulking adventure.
Look at them quads!
[/quote]
I remember when he first came out and his first BSN ads where in the mags. I thought, for certain, that his photos were photoshopped. Then I looked up some other pics and realized those are his legs. WOW!
Gerdy
[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
To be fair, Brewer looks a hell of a lot better in shape than he does in that picture…which is a guest posing appearance he probably should have skipped.
The guy has some UNREAL legs.
Yes, I was wondering. Looking at that pic I was thinking that it has to be a guest pose. If that was him in a competition it must’ve been from a looong time ago. lol
His legs are sick and to come in lean at the weight he is and at the age he is, is unreal. He will be a top pro contender in the future. Definitely some great genes in that pool. lol
Gerdy[/quote]
It fucking BETTER be a guest pose!
On a side note, it looks like Jay Cutler, Phil Heath and Erik Frankhouser (of Animal fame) are guest posing together this weekend.
Should make for some cool pics come Sunday.
Hello, i just thinking out loud and might as type what i have learned in my 9 months lifting 
Not long i know but i sit @ 210 pounds today so im feeling good !
p.s. Prof watch out !
In no particular order:
Dont worry about bodytypes till at LEAST 1-2 yrs into GOOD lifting training no weekend warrior style.
Dont worry about which method or which author seems best
Best advice is to use one for 1 month then go with someone else, that way you will be constantly hitting your body with something NEW. I think this is why i now outlift ALL my mates, i trained the way of everyone even TC !
Try eat properly MOST of the time, at the start i couldnt tell you what protein/fat/carbs were food was … FOOD.
Now i know better and only in the last 3 months have i cleaned it up BUT it doesnt need to be FULLY clean a hamburger wont add 20lbs of fat.
When you go to the gym, GO TO THE GYM!
I say this as for the 1st month i tagged along with 3 of my mates, and we spent more time TALKING than lifting !
You cant focus onb breaking records if your talking all the time, your head just wont get in the groove.
A training log is your best friend, i didnt think so, even thought it a bit over board BUT when its full you look at page 1 and the last page a sense of achievement will fill you and urge you on to even better lifts.
Dont worry to much about these “rest periods” go when your ready to go, after 20-30 seconds no matter how hard it was im ready to go, waiting for up to 2 mins would bore me to tears. So if you feel ready to lift, do the goddamn lift.
Check your ego at the door, this i feel is the most important one. When i started i wanted to lift heavier than my mates, i failed but also used weights FAR exceeding my actual strength ended up throwing the weights up and down than lifting. If you see a guy benching 100 kgs accept FOR NOW he is better, dont worry with more dedication you WILL catch him ! DO NOT load 100 and get your 2 buddies to lower and raise the weight for you !
Have fun. Seriously… i know one guy who hates going to the gym… 3 months later he gave up. I LOVE the gym, i love lifting heavy weights, i LOVE the sense of acheivement when i get a new PR on lifts its GREAT.
Loads more but thats what i think is what a 9 month old baby to the gym has to offer to people 
[quote]Corkonian wrote:
Hello, i just thinking out loud and might as type what i have learned in my 9 months lifting
Not long i know but i sit @ 210 pounds today so im feeling good !
p.s. Prof watch out !
In no particular order:
Dont worry about bodytypes till at LEAST 1-2 yrs into GOOD lifting training no weekend warrior style.
Dont worry about which method or which author seems best
Best advice is to use one for 1 month then go with someone else, that way you will be constantly hitting your body with something NEW. I think this is why i now outlift ALL my mates, i trained the way of everyone even TC !
Try eat properly MOST of the time, at the start i couldnt tell you what protein/fat/carbs were food was … FOOD.
Now i know better and only in the last 3 months have i cleaned it up BUT it doesnt need to be FULLY clean a hamburger wont add 20lbs of fat.
When you go to the gym, GO TO THE GYM!
I say this as for the 1st month i tagged along with 3 of my mates, and we spent more time TALKING than lifting !
You cant focus onb breaking records if your talking all the time, your head just wont get in the groove.
A training log is your best friend, i didnt think so, even thought it a bit over board BUT when its full you look at page 1 and the last page a sense of achievement will fill you and urge you on to even better lifts.
Dont worry to much about these “rest periods” go when your ready to go, after 20-30 seconds no matter how hard it was im ready to go, waiting for up to 2 mins would bore me to tears. So if you feel ready to lift, do the goddamn lift.
Check your ego at the door, this i feel is the most important one. When i started i wanted to lift heavier than my mates, i failed but also used weights FAR exceeding my actual strength ended up throwing the weights up and down than lifting. If you see a guy benching 100 kgs accept FOR NOW he is better, dont worry with more dedication you WILL catch him ! DO NOT load 100 and get your 2 buddies to lower and raise the weight for you !
Have fun. Seriously… i know one guy who hates going to the gym… 3 months later he gave up. I LOVE the gym, i love lifting heavy weights, i LOVE the sense of acheivement when i get a new PR on lifts its GREAT.
Loads more but thats what i think is what a 9 month old baby to the gym has to offer to people
[/quote]
Beginners take note…except for the switching programs each month. You guys will grow off of damn near anything.