The Body Weight Factor

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
ZZzzzzzzSNORK!!!

Way to suck all the goddammed fun out of weight lifting

neuronal pathways link… x amt of insulin resistance… IRS-2 tyrosine phosphorylation…
inflammatory cytokines that inhibit…
blah blah blah shut the fuck up and lift blah blah blah[/quote]

Well, the good thing at least is that there’s evidence out there to suggest that various forms of exercise have beneficial effects on modulating adipokine expression. Not a whole lot, from what I’ve seen… at least, that as far as evidence that a) comes directly from humans, and b) occurs independent of weight loss, but it’s not something I’ve looked into too much because weight loss has been so clearly demonstrated to induce long-term insulin sensitization that it doesn’t make sense to ignore it for any other single approach.

From what I recall, exercise seems to promote insulin sensitization commonly via upregulating the expression of adiponectin, an anti-hyperglycemic adipokine and often through reducing leptin, anther anti-hyper one that is seen to be elevated in the overweight and obese (causing resistance). Studies on the pro-inflammatory, pro-hyperglycemic ones (TNF-a, IL-6, RBP4, whatevsies) tended to be a little more hit-or-miss, from what I remember, but then this is a cutting-edge area of research and there is so much room for academic growth here – not only as far the effect of exercise on adipokine modulation, but also wrt their feedback on one another and even their general physiological effects – that it’s tough to say what the big picture looks really like. Obviously, as stronghold’s posts shows, we know quite a bit about what goes wrong from a biochemical standpoint to result in insulin resistance, but putting it all together to fit within the context of our discussion isn’t something I think we can confidently do with the current extent of the scientific literature.

Again, though, Y (or someone elses’s) MMV because this isn’t something I’ve looked too much into. We already have a silver bullet for restoring insulin sensitivity for most people; it just takes some effort and discipline.

Adipokines aside, it’s been known for AT LEAST 30 years that even single bouts of exercise can result in acute improvements in glucose metabolism (lasting up to 3 days, or so), but, again, the issue with the research seems to be determining whether or not long-term changes can be credited to some effect (direct or indirect) on weight loss, the cumulative effects of the exercise program, residual effects of the last exercise session or a combination of everything.

What we KNOW is that dropping fat will independently lead to long-term changes in insulin sensitization (i.e., one can maintain sensitivity even after they stop dropping weight and exercising)… what seems to be pretty hazy so far is whether or not one can exercise themselves “out” of insulin resistance without modulating body weight in the process (i.e., whether or not the aggregate effect of exercise can lead to long-term changes in glucose metabolism that persist after cessation of regular physical activity). I wouldn’t bet on it, personally.

So, for those of us who routinely exercise, we clearly have a safety net in place for insulin sensitivity barring obesity and shit-tier diets. But, remember that most of the evidence out there focuses on an improving glucose metabolism when it is in at pathological or near-pathological stage, NOT the effects of optimizing it’s function for the biggest muscles and least fat possible (which is what we want as bodybuilders and what the focus is really on).

Right now, I would bet that the most credible resources we can both find AND rely on (so far) aren’t peer-reviewed studies, but the successful gym rats who have gone from “full house” to “big and lean” and can offer their input on how that changed the game for them. Yes, yes, n=1 and all that, but get two of them together and we have n=2, etc, etc. Sooner or later SOMETHING should jump out.

OK, that post was probably pretty fucking long.

Blame the Adderall.

tl;dr: it’s probably a smart idea to listen to the people who have gone from bigger/chubby to big/lean and listen to THEIR results, because within the context of this discussion I’d be surprised if there’s much more to rely on.

For all their talk about how “getting lean is the easy part because it can be done in just a few months time”, you’d think perma-bulkers would just fucking sack up, take 12 weeks, lose the spare weight, and find out FOR THEMSELVES rather than wasting YEARS of their lifting careers and spending THOUSANDS of posts trying to convince others (or maybe just themselves) that the difference is negligible, if existent.

It’s three friggen’ months at the most; that’s NOTHING in the grand scheme of things… because if you can’t get lean (not ripped, not stage ready, people) in that amount of time, my guess is that you are likely carrying enough body fat to justify a cut just for basic health and general aesthetics rather than performance optimization.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I AM A WEIGHTLIFTER!! I LIFT SHIT!!!

This is all anyone needs right here.

80 lb limit, my ass. Fuck interstitial muscle fat n shit!

SHUT UP AND LIFT, MOTHERFUCKERS![/quote]

Damn

It was nice to come back to this thread this morning and read through an actual discussion. It’s obvious either side is passionate about their stance, but it comes off as spirited debate. This is what I enjoy logging onto and reading here.

Now if I could just figure out what took place to allow this to happen…

To add to the discussion about insulin sensitivity and weight loss, I’ve lost 5lbs over the last couple of months, and already I’m not fighting falling asleep at my desk an hour after lunch. It’s actually a very noticeable difference.

Is it wrong to assume, then, that I’m not as insulin resistant as I used to be? It’s not like I’m eating a lo-carb diet all of a sudden. Just a bit less of every thing but protein. Only real difference is I’ve started taking Elite-Pro minerals, which I understand could help with insulin sensitivity.

anonym wins this thread

I now have a LOT of very scientific words I need to google

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
anonym wins this thread

I now have a LOT of very scientific words I need to google[/quote]

anonym wins every thread…but the first post at the top of this page was absolutely brutal.

[quote]anonym wrote:

For all their talk about how “getting lean is the easy part because it can be done in just a few months time”, you’d think perma-bulkers would just fucking sack up, take 12 weeks, lose the spare weight, and find out FOR THEMSELVES rather than [/quote]

If it’s not their goal, it’s not their goal.

Listen to the tone of your post. Such disdain for “perma-bulkers”. Is your pedestal made of gold? What makes you superior?

I’m not trying to sound aggressive or offensive, it’s hard to convey tone in a forum post versus actually hearing me speak it, but can you understand how your post and other’s like it, sounds cliquish and high-and-mighty? Were you one of the bullies in school who made fun of fat kids? Nerds? That’s what this board is full of.

Now, having said that, I dropped 50 lbs in 12 weeks and another 20 in the following 12. I probably “did it wrong”, but was relatively easy to do. Much easier than 4 years of pushing lifts upward. That’s just me.

Everyone is different, wouldn’t you agree? Wouldn’t you agree that for some people who want to make their body much larger than it is, or add 100’s of pounds to their lifts might take some years versus some weeks? Sure, there are lazy lifters who languish in the gym for years lifting the same weights, eating pizza and ice cream, but who cares?

Why is thrust upon some to judge?

This happened to me some months ago: Sitting on an airplane in delay for repairs, 2nd row. Pilot is standing there chatting. He looks at me sitting there in normal clothes (sorry, not naked or abs) and he says “The mechanics just called-- they need you to bench press the plane up because the jack is broken”. We continued to talk about training for a few minutes.

Dude, that was totally worth magnitudes more than being called fat and weak on T-Nation. I’ll be permabulker all day every day for conversation starters like that. Maybe the 180 lb guy next to me was the 29th best powerlifter in the whole wide world and could lift, like, 9000, but he wasn’t the conversation starter. That’s not my motivation to lift, but it’s a cool by-product for sure.

TLDR;
Fat boy want chee’burger.

Steely, the difference is you don’t pound your way through saying "nuh-uh, no scientific proof, so YOUR WRONG, it doesn’t happen, too many factors, etc.

It’s a topic of discussion, and I’d bet anonym’s remark about losing and fining out for themselves is directed to those saying “IT ISN’T TRUE”, not those who just don’t care about losing the weight.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

For all their talk about how “getting lean is the easy part because it can be done in just a few months time”, you’d think perma-bulkers would just fucking sack up, take 12 weeks, lose the spare weight, and find out FOR THEMSELVES rather than [/quote]

If it’s not their goal, it’s not their goal.

Listen to the tone of your post. Such disdain for “perma-bulkers”. Is your pedestal made of gold? What makes you superior?

I’m not trying to sound aggressive or offensive, it’s hard to convey tone in a forum post versus actually hearing me speak it, but can you understand how your post and other’s like it, sounds cliquish and high-and-mighty? Were you one of the bullies in school who made fun of fat kids? Nerds? That’s what this board is full of.

Now, having said that, I dropped 50 lbs in 12 weeks and another 20 in the following 12. I probably “did it wrong”, but was relatively easy to do. Much easier than 4 years of pushing lifts upward. That’s just me.

Everyone is different, wouldn’t you agree? Wouldn’t you agree that for some people who want to make their body much larger than it is, or add 100’s of pounds to their lifts might take some years versus some weeks? Sure, there are lazy lifters who languish in the gym for years lifting the same weights, eating pizza and ice cream, but who cares?

Why is thrust upon some to judge?

This happened to me some months ago: Sitting on an airplane in delay for repairs, 2nd row. Pilot is standing there chatting. He looks at me sitting there in normal clothes (sorry, not naked or abs) and he says “The mechanics just called-- they need you to bench press the plane up because the jack is broken”. We continued to talk about training for a few minutes.

Dude, that was totally worth magnitudes more than being called fat and weak on T-Nation. I’ll be permabulker all day every day for conversation starters like that. Maybe the 180 lb guy next to me was the 29th best powerlifter in the whole wide world and could lift, like, 9000, but he wasn’t the conversation starter. That’s not my motivation to lift, but it’s a cool by-product for sure.

TLDR;
Fat boy want chee’burger.[/quote]

[quote]cueball wrote:
Steely, the difference is you don’t pound your way through saying "nuh-uh, no scientific proof, so YOUR WRONG, it doesn’t happen, too many factors, etc.
[/quote]

The only science anyone needs to worry about is shut up and lift :wink:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
Steely, the difference is you don’t pound your way through saying "nuh-uh, no scientific proof, so YOUR WRONG, it doesn’t happen, too many factors, etc.
[/quote]

The only science anyone needs to worry about is shut up and lift ;)[/quote]

:wink: X2

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
Steely, the difference is you don’t pound your way through saying "nuh-uh, no scientific proof, so YOUR WRONG, it doesn’t happen, too many factors, etc.
[/quote]

The only science anyone needs to worry about is shut up and lift ;)[/quote]

[quote]cueball wrote:
Steely, the difference is you don’t pound your way through saying "nuh-uh, no scientific proof, so YOUR WRONG, it doesn’t happen, too many factors, etc.

It’s a topic of discussion, and I’d bet anonym’s remark about losing and fining out for themselves is directed to those saying “IT ISN’T TRUE”, not those who just don’t care about losing the weight.[/quote]

^This. It’s all about tone, and civility.

For the most part, if you are civil to others, you can expect that back. If you’re a belligerent asshole day after day after day - well, eventually no sane human being wants to listen to that shit anymore…

Steely, you’re right tone is hard to judge from written text, but I really didn’t get the judgmental tone from Anonym’s post that you did.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
Steely, you’re right tone is hard to judge from written text, but I really didn’t get the judgmental tone from Anonym’s post that you did.[/quote]

Oh, I didn’t mean the post per se, but just the constant reference to “the permabulkers” (you know, like “the jews”, “the fatties”, “the gays”, …). It sets the tone for the entire discussion, especially those who are in the ‘lean camp’. Then anyone who is not 10% (whatever that means) is suddenly somehow inferior. I’m exaggerating a little, but you get the point.

Oh, the horror of ‘permabulking’:

We should all be so fat and weak. If only he dropped 30 lbs …

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Oh, I didn’t mean the post per se, but just the constant reference to “the permabulkers” (you know, like “the jews”, “the fatties”, “the gays”, …). It sets the tone for the entire discussion, especially those who are in the ‘lean camp’.[/quote]

I understand where you’re coming from, but there is definitely disdain from both camps. Permabulkers look down on the lean guys who don’t look like they lift wearing an XXXXL shirt, and the ripped guys laugh at how fat the guys over 15% are.

obviously I’m exaggerating but so it goes. Not that you ever judge Steely, you’re a good lad.

I think it’s the context of the thread that’s bad, not the discussion itself. Had Anonym made the same post in a more civil thread I bet there’d have been no inferences made.

Let’s all just agree we want to look like Simeon Panda. Massive and ripped. Yes please.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread so dedicated to shit that meant absolutely nothing with respect to training.

Why anyone would care, in a practical sense, whether someone can theoretically add 80 lbs of muscle to a body is about as senseless as anything I’ve read.

I managed to just about not think about that theoretical limitation the whole time I wreaked absolute havoc on my back today. In fact, in the fleeting moment that it did enter into my conscious, I immedately visualized two slabs of 50 lb lats hanging off of my spine. That was some monster shit right there.

Then, I rowed.

Theoretically add 80 lbs of muscle? Motherfucker, I’m gonna row this motherfucking heavy ass motherfucking weight 20 motherfucking times. And then do it again with more motherfucking weight. Then I’m gonna do it again. 50.mother.fucking.pound.slabs.of.beef.lats.hanging.off.my.spine.

I got your 80 lbs of muscle… Right here…

Can’t add 80lbs of muscle? WTF? IT’S STILL MY MOTHER.FUCKING.SET

Thank you CT Fletcher

You know who doesn’t give a fuck about whether a theoretical person can add a theoretical 80lbs of muscle? CT Motherfucking Fletcher and everyone else who hasn’t posted in this thread.

Quick, somebody start a thread about a theoretical homogeneous cube that models a 175 lbs person of indeterminate height and argue about how introducing a theoritical heterogeneous material will affect his theoretical insulin level so I can ignore that mother.fucking.thread, too.

[/quote]

I actually felt like lifting while reading this.

Alright, SteelyD, you have a good point–as usual. I only wish I could be as carefree and laid back. However, looking back on it, I was just trying to have a conversation on topics I like. But yeah, got carried away. Sorry about that.
[/quote]

ya, i agree brick. great post. i read that and felt like lifting too.

as a matter of fact, after i read it, i went to my garage and hit an all time pr in the meadows row of 8 25lb plates x6, and a post neck surgery pr of 250kg x 1 on the dead-squat bar. i honestly think i am going to hit 600 on that bar before summer gets here. i do not know if that says more about my recovery or more about the leverages that particular bar gives me, but ill take it.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
obviously I’m exaggerating but so it goes. Not that you ever judge Steely, you’re a good lad.
[/quote]

I’m actually an awful, awful person. I spend hours of my day judging skinny bitchez… :wink:

[quote]
Let’s all just agree we want to look like Simeon Panda. Massive and ripped. Yes please.[/quote]

I don’t think many of us would disagree there!

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
ya, i agree brick. great post. i read that and felt like lifting too.

as a matter of fact, after i read it, i went to my garage and hit an all time pr in the meadows row of 8 25lb plates x6, and a post neck surgery pr of 250kg x 1 on the dead-squat bar. i honestly think i am going to hit 600 on that bar before summer gets here. i do not know if that says more about my recovery or more about the leverages that particular bar gives me, but ill take it. [/quote]

Oh, hellz yeah! That’s what it’s all about!