The Body Weight Factor

Training
501

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
Hammer strength machines correlate almost exactly (within 10-20 pounds) of barbell work. So if you can hammer strength ~405 then you can bench 405.

[/quote]

woah I’m not so sure about that. I am MUCH stronger on HS machines than I am with a barbell. I thought everyone was? Maybe I’m just weird[/quote]

I was being sarcastic as that’s the arguement X was making in that thread. [/quote]
Oh sorry then but dont let Yolo see you doing that

502

did not know those claims, but this happened too

“Preacher curls (starting with a 45lbs dumbbell and moving up to around 85lbs lately even though I have done more in the past…I am trying to concentrate more on form lately)”

503

Here’s what I’m gonna say to a noob.

"You have a lot of work to do–years of work to do–before stepping foot in the gym. It’s gonna take years of understanding your body. Like even with little stuff. Like you might even have to decrease your volume on your upcoming leg work out because you sat on the can twice today or were shuffling around at work on your feet all day. Maybe you fatigued your glutes bedding down with your women. Like your deadlift session might be affected from that grocery carrying you did. What about that time you grabbed that heavy stuff over your head from the attic. Things like that can affect your overhead pressing.

These are things you gotta watch out for. Even mental stuff too. Like remember when you broke down and cried last week. That too can wreak havoc on your physical and mental state.

And hw are you gonna measure those scrambled egg scraps leftover on the pan or protein drink left over on the side of the blender and thermos. See you cant even really know how many calories you’re eating, so it’s not worth counting them."

504

[quote]steven alex wrote:
Oh sorry then but dont let Yolo see you doing that[/quote]

You should go back to lurking Steven.

505

I’m gonna chime in on the 50lb rule (rules have exceptions, limits don’t) that has been talked about. I’ll use myself as an example, embarrassing as it may be, because my bodyfat has stayed pretty constant.

My adult weight, when I’m not weight training or counting calories, is 135 @ 5’9’'. Thankfully, I’ve been within a couple percentage points of 10%BF for as long as I’ve kept track. Between my senior year of high school (max weight 135) and the spring of my freshman year in college I gained 30 pounds. It was freakin sweet. Giving myself the benefit of the doubt and saying I remained at 10%, I went from 121.5 LBM to 148.5 LBM, or a gain of roughly 27lbs muscle.

We can talk about water and glycogen content of LBM, but I don’t like to complicate things, so I’ll just ignore those variables for the sake of cogency… if you disagree, that’s cool.

Even though my gains were n00b gains and nothing special, I did work hard for them. I have a hard time seeing myself ever reaching or passing 185lbs @ 10%, as that would be 166.5 lbs LBM or a gain or 45lbs of muscle. Now I don’t have incredible genetics (understatement), so it seems to me that 50lbs is a very reasonable number to put out there. If you told an untrained college kid weighing 150 @ 10% that he could eventually weigh 205 at the same leanness with all the hard work in the world, he’d probably be skeptical, yet still believe you. Some might not and say “nah bro u need drugs for that,” but we’re talking about the MAXIMUM amount of muscle that non-freaks can build, not the AVERAGE amount built.

I can entirely believe people putting on more than 50lbs of muscle naturally, but I think that case would be exceedingly rare. When we get to talk of 80+ lbs of unassisted muscle built, the BS starts there.

It’s important to keep in mind that a lot of us started lifting before fully maturing. After I stopped growing taller, I was still only 125lbs. I put on roughly 10 more after that just from getting older. If I want to claim a differential starting when I finished growing upwards, I could claim that I’ve gained 37 LBs of lean mass instead, which is a little misleading. Indeed I have, but some of that was mother nature herself.

I personally like this simple 50lb metric because it is a nice round # that’s easy to remember, and if someone who isn’t into the hobby ask you what is attainable naturally, it’s easier to say “About 50lbs if you do all your shit RIGHT” instead of the cop-out “Well, it depends.” Arguing that “50lbs isn’t the limit and saying so itself is limiting” doesn’t really get us anywhere, as it would be the exception to the rule to see an unassisted lifter pass this level of development.

Anyway, I’m off to eat some food and get a little closer to my maximum LBM. Cheers.

506

[quote]marshaldteach wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

How does that set up a strawman?

I just explained the basic concept of relative strength to you.

Actually, the one setting up strawmen is you. You’re trying to use the motivations of professional bodybuilders, who are ultimately the least concerned with how much they lift out of the entire lifting population, with those who want to be both big and strong.

This is about training efficiency. It is entirely possible to increase your numbers simply by gaining fat due to improved leverages, shortened ROM, etc. This, however, is not a sustainable solution. If person A and person B both start at 180lbs and increase their squat to 500 lbs, person a gaining 20 lbs and person b gaining 50, then it is entirely reasonable to conclude that person A is actually capabale of producing more force than person B. Where does person B go when it is time to increase their squat from 500 to 600? Do they gain another 50 lbs? Person A ends up gaining 20 more lbs to 220lbs and person B ends up at 280. Relying on weight gain to get stronger means you are going to get quickly outpaced by people who actually have their training and nutrition dialed in, as was the case with Det Azathoth in his thread in this forum, where he talks about making arguably the best progress of his life AFTER getting his nutrition in line and learning to train optimally rather than just relying on gaining 30lbs/year to get him stronger. In the short term, a shotgun approach to food can maske inefficient training, but in the long run, the one who trains and eats efficiently will come out on top.[/quote]

but you are assuming the person eating more won’t put lbs on their squat faster than the person who isn’t

and assuming it is possible to know what perfect nutrition is

you’re either going to risk not gaining muscle as fast, or putting on some extra bodyfat… I’d prefer the second one
[/quote]

No, actual ability to generate force will increase at the same rate as muscle building is rate limited and neurological strength gains occur independent of food intake. The absolute demonstrated “strength” may be higher for the heavier individual due to improved leverage, but at some point, it becomes impossible and impractical to get stronger simply by gaining weight and the larger individual will have to diet down to a degree (bringing their demonstrated strength closer to the actual force they are able to generate) and the individual will “lose” the strength they gained from their improved leverages.

It’s entirely possible to be aware enough of your energy expenditure and how your body responds to food to find a sweet spot somewhere between the false dichotomy you’re trying to establish. See Det Azathoth’s thread for an example. I’m sure his 1700lb raw total at 215 and 23 years old will be enough to convince you that he hasn’t been sacrificing muscle gains by being moderate and conscientious with his diet.

507

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

With all the advancement in supplementation and research in nutrition, nutrient timing, protein synthesis, etc, why don’t i see more big guys in the gym?

[/quote]

Because 99% of the population doesn’t care about getting big or at least not care about applying the best information.

The average person going to a gym is going to a gym to get some exercise (or socializing) in and that’s it. They’re not up at night logging onto forums and websites figuring out the most efficient way to get big and strong. Most people have priorities that top the gym, and some people simply have shit to do that interferes with getting as big and strong as possible.

I was referring to the population in the gym starting with the INTENT of getting at least bigger than average.

I can walk around Manhattan for hours at a shot in the summer time, when people are wearing tanks, shorts, and T-shirts, and go the whole time without noticing even ONE noticeably jacked person. And many of these people are very bright, upper middle class, and in some cases, rich, people, so it is clear they know how to apply information for a desired result. But instead, they have chosen not to be a serious lifter or bodybuilder.

[/quote]

I completely agree with this. That is, assuming one wasn’t born into wealth, his current succes in whatever endeavour in life would depend on his ability to plan, adapt and look at things objectively in view of a bigger picture or goal. To get to this level, however, would initially require an amount of single-mindedness in the pursuit of education, real world knowledge, the ability to go through a whole lot of shit and accepting (without fear) that there will be tons of fuck-ups while consistantly being aware of the larger goal at hand.

Having gone through much of this, the way i manage people doing a job is define a set of objectives within a timeframe. Their results will dictate the next approach, which will involve telling them what went wrong and WHY in the case of some fuck-ups and highlighting what they did right and how that can be improved. I find people improve more in the long term when correcting mistakes in the PROCESS of application and are more empowered when they get things right by their own devices with minimal supervision.

On whether this is applicable to noobs in bodybuilding, i can’t say as I have no experience in training them. But if i were to go back in time and give myself advice at 18yrs of age when first starting out, i would say just add in more meals, get more acquainted with the protein content in the food labels, get stronger at all costs in all exercises, and eat even more when the sudden “spurts in strength” happen.

However, starting out again at 33 yrs, your writings, as well as several others’s on nutrition are indeed VERY valuable to me as my body(and mindset) is very different from when i was first starting out. Many thanks.

508

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

Lunge jokes aside, I’m supposed to believe you can deadlift significantly more than that when you looked like you were going to die during the sets?[/quote]

You are supposed to be mature enough to understand that it doesn’t matter how strong you are, if you haven’t done an exercise at all in over ten years, you will NOT be using the most weight during your very first attempt at it again…which is what you saw on film.

You can bet I was moving more weight within the week after adding it back in until the motorcycle accident.

My conditioning was very poor when I went to CO. That is why I do way more conditioning work now. Again, the delusion seems to lie elsewhere.[/quote]

So how do you explain struggling with a band assisted 3 plate bench, but repping 4 plate hammer strength bench and literally claiming the difference between the 2 movements is only 4-5 lbs?
[/quote]

I just saw the different parts of the video and am just going to address the part with the prowler and the hot chicks.

I’m just wondering if people know that asthma sufferers like myself have learnt (since this is a condition we’ve had since young) to downplay the severity of a bad attack in front of others in order to not freak the people around us out, while rushing for the damn inhaler feeling like we’re drowning.

I’m not commmenting on the current point in contention. Just felt it would be fit to post this here while the topic is on the X vid as i saw various post ridiculing him for that portion as it looked like he quit halfway due to being “fat” and “unfit”.

509

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

Lunge jokes aside, I’m supposed to believe you can deadlift significantly more than that when you looked like you were going to die during the sets?[/quote]

You are supposed to be mature enough to understand that it doesn’t matter how strong you are, if you haven’t done an exercise at all in over ten years, you will NOT be using the most weight during your very first attempt at it again…which is what you saw on film.

You can bet I was moving more weight within the week after adding it back in until the motorcycle accident.

My conditioning was very poor when I went to CO. That is why I do way more conditioning work now. Again, the delusion seems to lie elsewhere.[/quote]

So how do you explain struggling with a band assisted 3 plate bench, but repping 4 plate hammer strength bench and literally claiming the difference between the 2 movements is only 4-5 lbs?
[/quote]

I just saw the different parts of the video and am just going to address the part with the prowler and the hot chicks.

I’m just wondering if people know that asthma sufferers like myself have learnt (since this is a condition we’ve had since young) to downplay the severity of a bad attack in front of others in order to not freak the people around us out, while rushing for the damn inhaler feeling like we’re drowning.

I’m not commmenting on the current point in contention. Just felt it would be fit to post this here while the topic is on the X vid as i saw various post ridiculing him for that portion as it looked like he quit halfway due to being “fat” and “unfit”.[/quote]

Awesome. Another excuse for PX to hide behind. Does this also explain the 1/10th lunges?

510

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

Lunge jokes aside, I’m supposed to believe you can deadlift significantly more than that when you looked like you were going to die during the sets?[/quote]

You are supposed to be mature enough to understand that it doesn’t matter how strong you are, if you haven’t done an exercise at all in over ten years, you will NOT be using the most weight during your very first attempt at it again…which is what you saw on film.

You can bet I was moving more weight within the week after adding it back in until the motorcycle accident.

My conditioning was very poor when I went to CO. That is why I do way more conditioning work now. Again, the delusion seems to lie elsewhere.[/quote]

So how do you explain struggling with a band assisted 3 plate bench, but repping 4 plate hammer strength bench and literally claiming the difference between the 2 movements is only 4-5 lbs?
[/quote]

I just saw the different parts of the video and am just going to address the part with the prowler and the hot chicks.

I’m just wondering if people know that asthma sufferers like myself have learnt (since this is a condition we’ve had since young) to downplay the severity of a bad attack in front of others in order to not freak the people around us out, while rushing for the damn inhaler feeling like we’re drowning.

I’m not commmenting on the current point in contention. Just felt it would be fit to post this here while the topic is on the X vid as i saw various post ridiculing him for that portion as it looked like he quit halfway due to being “fat” and “unfit”.[/quote]

Awesome. Another excuse for PX to hide behind. Does this also explain the 1/10th lunges?
[/quote]

Haha i don’t know about the explanation for the lunges nor am i interested. I was just saying that, unlike in the movies, the demeanor of someone having a bad asthma attack rarely reflects the severity of it unless he WANTS you to know or is really close to death.

511

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Another example, who took more than his fair share of drugs.

Maybe people can actually THINK of what someone who gained 80 to 100 pounds of mostly muscle or 30 inch thighs look like. [/quote]

BINGO! End thread here/

512

[quote]fncj wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
What would you suggest for a natty recreational lifter that has reached a plateu and is looking for a few pointers so shave some strokes of his game? Who should they look toward for diet and training advice?[/quote]

Coaches and trainers who work with the athletes and professionals (in whatever your area of training) tend to offer the most useful information when a trainee thinks about how to effectively incorporate the advice into a program. These individuals are more accessible than they were twenty years ago, so for information-seeking they’re top tier in my opinion.

Kai Greene’s bodybuilding routine may be interesting to look at, but I’d pay closer attention to anything said/written by Charles Glass. A person wanting to improve their strength and athleticism can do worse than to look at coaches like DeFranco, Tate, and Wendler.

Advice from bodybuilders and professional athletes (who don’t always design their own programs) can also be valuable because like with the first group, a trainee has to think about how to use the information. Though when it comes to their routines, (being personal, will address that athlete’s particular needs) I think a person has to have enough knowledge and experience under their belts to pick out specific elements.

This way they can re-work what is presented into a personal program. This doesn’t always happen, I’ve seen people try to use a weekly split for a pro bodybuilder as-is.[/quote]

Good point. I think we can agree that someone wanting to improve should seek out advice from top level coaches and professionals (many of which are coaches aswell.)

513

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

Lunge jokes aside, I’m supposed to believe you can deadlift significantly more than that when you looked like you were going to die during the sets?[/quote]

You are supposed to be mature enough to understand that it doesn’t matter how strong you are, if you haven’t done an exercise at all in over ten years, you will NOT be using the most weight during your very first attempt at it again…which is what you saw on film.

You can bet I was moving more weight within the week after adding it back in until the motorcycle accident.

My conditioning was very poor when I went to CO. That is why I do way more conditioning work now. Again, the delusion seems to lie elsewhere.[/quote]

So how do you explain struggling with a band assisted 3 plate bench, but repping 4 plate hammer strength bench and literally claiming the difference between the 2 movements is only 4-5 lbs?
[/quote]

Dude, Hammer Strength is exactly the same as free weight.

514

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

Dude, Hammer Strength is exactly the same as free weight.

[/quote]

for me the flat bench HS machine is within 10-20% of my reg bench

the ones on an angle, whole different story

515

[quote]marshaldteach wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

Dude, Hammer Strength is exactly the same as free weight.

[/quote]

for me the flat bench HS machine is within 10-20% of my reg bench

the ones on an angle, whole different story

If the weight travels half as far as your hands then it is half as heavy or two thirds, etc… There is no fixed weight difference in a certain amount of lbs. Just like how a universal stack has the weight behind you traveling much less and feeling lighter.

[/quote]

516

I’ve only used the flat HS chest thing once, but I have to say it felt really awkward to get in and set up in. Wasn’t keen at all.

517

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

Lunge jokes aside, I’m supposed to believe you can deadlift significantly more than that when you looked like you were going to die during the sets?[/quote]

You are supposed to be mature enough to understand that it doesn’t matter how strong you are, if you haven’t done an exercise at all in over ten years, you will NOT be using the most weight during your very first attempt at it again…which is what you saw on film.

You can bet I was moving more weight within the week after adding it back in until the motorcycle accident.

My conditioning was very poor when I went to CO. That is why I do way more conditioning work now. Again, the delusion seems to lie elsewhere.[/quote]

So how do you explain struggling with a band assisted 3 plate bench, but repping 4 plate hammer strength bench and literally claiming the difference between the 2 movements is only 4-5 lbs?
[/quote]

I just saw the different parts of the video and am just going to address the part with the prowler and the hot chicks.

I’m just wondering if people know that asthma sufferers like myself have learnt (since this is a condition we’ve had since young) to downplay the severity of a bad attack in front of others in order to not freak the people around us out, while rushing for the damn inhaler feeling like we’re drowning.

I’m not commmenting on the current point in contention. Just felt it would be fit to post this here while the topic is on the X vid as i saw various post ridiculing him for that portion as it looked like he quit halfway due to being “fat” and “unfit”.[/quote]

Awesome. Another excuse for PX to hide behind. Does this also explain the 1/10th lunges?
[/quote]

Haha i don’t know about the explanation for the lunges nor am i interested. I was just saying that, unlike in the movies, the demeanor of someone having a bad asthma attack rarely reflects the severity of it unless he WANTS you to know or is really close to death.[/quote]

Ask both CT and Shugart how bad it got as they were both there. I was on the floor trying to avoid calling an ambulance at one point because of an attack and no inhaler since I usually don’t need one at seal level in Houston.

Either way, what I see is people literally making up things I supposedly said somewhere without any quotes to back that up. Considering me and CT were using close to the same weight on nearly everything, I find it strange no one is calling him “weak” but supposedly I am.

518

[quote]marshaldteach wrote:

for me the flat bench HS machine is within 10-20% of my reg bench

the ones on an angle, whole different story
[/quote]

The ONLY machine I ever even related to any sort of free weight was the flat HS bench press that lays down. You lay on it like a regular bench press and I got the weight conversion for that specific machine from the company’s website which stated similar to what you experienced, about 10-15%.

Beware of believing what these guys say. They do nothing but twist around any statements made since they rarely can debate with me on the topics I bring up without the added “didn’t you write that the sky is red somewhere two weeks ago?”.

519

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
In this thread I learned Thibs is able to assess X’s BF in CO by looking at his arms, but we certainly can’t say CT Fletcher is sub-10% from looking at his.[/quote]

? CT spent over a week training with me alone. I wasn’t even there with a group of people like most of the people who went. You are saying an experienced trainer wih several years of experience who trains 5 inches away from someone for over a week and has met with that person before over the years can NOT assess someone’s body fat and get a decent estimate?

Are you serious?

You are saying a VIDEO is the same as being right next to someone for weeks?

520

[quote]dt79 wrote:

I completely agree with this. That is, assuming one wasn’t born into wealth, his current succes in whatever endeavour in life would depend on his ability to plan, adapt and look at things objectively in view of a bigger picture or goal. To get to this level, however, would initially require an amount of single-mindedness in the pursuit of education, real world knowledge, the ability to go through a whole lot of shit and accepting (without fear) that there will be tons of fuck-ups while consistantly being aware of the larger goal at hand. [/quote]

Thanks. I see someone wrote in response to me that they were speaking of people who have the intent of getting big, not people generally. The same thing applies though: most people in gyms, even the ones who want to get in shape for whatever goal, are unable or haven’t yet been able to use the appropriate information to get them where they want to be or they can’t decipher bullshit info from useful info, as what Stu was talking about in this internet, quick-fix era.

[quote]

Having gone through much of this, the way i manage people doing a job is define a set of objectives within a timeframe. Their results will dictate the next approach, which will involve telling them what went wrong and WHY in the case of some fuck-ups and highlighting what they did right and how that can be improved. I find people improve more in the long term when correcting mistakes in the PROCESS of application and are more empowered when they get things right by their own devices with minimal supervision. [/quote]

Yeah, tell me about it. There are people who need the approval of a guru for every move they make in the kitchen and gym.

[quote]

On whether this is applicable to noobs in bodybuilding, i can’t say as I have no experience in training them. But if i were to go back in time and give myself advice at 18yrs of age when first starting out, i would say just add in more meals, get more acquainted with the protein content in the food labels, get stronger at all costs in all exercises, and eat even more when the sudden “spurts in strength” happen.

However, starting out again at 33 yrs, your writings, as well as several others’s on nutrition are indeed VERY valuable to me as my body(and mindset) is very different from when i was first starting out. Many thanks.[/quote]

Welcome. I’m not some foremost expert, but I try my best.