PROGRESS can’t be taken into account so this is what the diet is based on. Unless we nutrition professionals are doing something wrong. And because you know what to do, and I want to become better at giving nutrition advice and writing diets, I’m asking you for some tips on what we should do with uneducated, inexperienced noobs. [/quote]
I already told you. You seem to be fighting the info.
These recommendations would be for a nontraining person. Someone who is training for size isn’t even going to be needing the same amount of food and calories in a week that they need the day before they start a program.
That is why with many of these guy who run up to me for advice, I will ask what they are doing NOW and what results they have seen if any at all. FROM THAT changes are more gradually made.
A complete overhaul will push many people out the gym because it does not take LIFE STYLE into account.
That is why when you write that progress is NOT taken into account, you show that you are good in classroom studies. Real life isn’t a classroom.
There are genetic freaks out there and people at the other end of the spectrum. Paint by the numbers approaches leave out many areas.
Then please explain why Olympic lifters and powerlifters have increased strength at the same weight?
I also said lifts can increase just from increasing fat mass in some cases. Hence why many people’s lifts go down when they come from an outrageously bulked state, only to find that not only did they lose strength, they didn’t wind up with much muscle than pre-bulk.
And again, I said NOT IN ALL CASES.
Does anyone around here understand the difference between ALL, NOT ALL, SOME, MANY, MOST, LESS, and NONE?[/quote]
Maybe I should have added “in most cases”
There’s many reasons why strength has increased without extra muscle, which you know so I will not go into detail. Mostly tho, that those examples have weight classes so they purposely try not to gain any weight.
You are right. But in general, this is a good guideline, just as yours are for nutrition.
You take a newb. You tell him what rep range to aim for, in different exercises. You tell him to increase his strength in said rep range. Chances are, by the time he increases his lifts by lets say 50% over 6 months, and provide him with adequate nutrition to grow, chances are he will have much bigger muscles/weight to show for his strength. Where as someone who eats enough to grow, and doesn’t gain much strength, will have no relative gauge of progress, and may get fatter.
Yes, which is why professionals use something called JUDGMENT, which is based on experience and knowledge!
There’s not ONE damn pre-contest coach–not Shelby, not Stu, not John Meadows, not Scott Abel, not Chris Aceto, or whoever–who’ s a damn clairvoyant, able to predict exactly what is going to happen to someone with next week’s menu or training schedule. However, they became great nutritionists because of applying JUDGMENT over and over and over and seeing the results that USUALLY occur![/quote]
Right…and that judgment should lead most to understanding that paint by the numbers approaches may work when you are talking over a website in general. People are not “general biological studies”. Those variables mean a lot.
You act like someone here is talking bad about some author.
I am showing you alone what your own mentality seems to be missing.
People are X-factors. You can have all the basic guidelines in the world and someone will fall outside of them.
Then please explain why Olympic lifters and powerlifters have increased strength at the same weight?
I also said lifts can increase just from increasing fat mass in some cases. Hence why many people’s lifts go down when they come from an outrageously bulked state, only to find that not only did they lose strength, they didn’t wind up with much muscle than pre-bulk.
And again, I said NOT IN ALL CASES.
Does anyone around here understand the difference between ALL, NOT ALL, SOME, MANY, MOST, LESS, and NONE?[/quote]
Maybe I should have added “in most cases”
There’s many reasons why strength has increased without extra muscle, which you know so I will not go into detail. Mostly tho, that those examples have weight classes so they purposely try not to gain any weight.
You are right. But in general, this is a good guideline, just as yours are for nutrition.
You take a newb. You tell him what rep range to aim for, in different exercises. You tell him to increase his strength in said rep range. Chances are, by the time he increases his lifts by lets say 50% over 6 months, and provide him with adequate nutrition to grow, chances are he will have much bigger muscles/weight to show for his strength. Where as someone who eats enough to grow, and doesn’t gain much strength, will have no relative gauge of progress, and may get fatter. [/quote]
I see your point. Got you.
I didn’t mean to come across as hostile. Sorry if I did. It’s just there’s a ton of incoherency and misinterpretation on this board lately.
PROGRESS can’t be taken into account so this is what the diet is based on. Unless we nutrition professionals are doing something wrong. And because you know what to do, and I want to become better at giving nutrition advice and writing diets, I’m asking you for some tips on what we should do with uneducated, inexperienced noobs. [/quote]
I already told you. You seem to be fighting the info.
These recommendations would be for a nontraining person. Someone who is training for size isn’t even going to be needing the same amount of food and calories in a week that they need the day before they start a program.
That is why with many of these guy who run up to me for advice, I will ask what they are doing NOW and what results they have seen if any at all. FROM THAT changes are more gradually.
A complete overhaul will push many people out the gym because it does not take LIFE STYLE into account.
That is why when you write that progress is NOT taken into account, you show that you are good in classroom studies. Real life isn’t a classroom.
There are genetic freaks out there and people at the other end of the spectrum. Paint by the numbers approaches leave out many areas.[/quote]
Not referring to classroom study in this context of a noob wannabe weight trainer who wants to go from wannabe to doer.
The guy didn’t do a damn thing yet and wants your help from day one.
Regarding lifestyle: It’s taken into account with nutrition professionals, hence why I put resources and food preferences in my list of things to base a diet off of and why I take into account professionally myself and for myself.
OK, so he doesn’t need that much food as a trainer before he sets foot in a gym. What should he start doing the morning of THE DAY he starts training. Sensible breakfast please?
I agree with your general guidelines for nutrition. However, what do you say to the guy who wants to turn into a beast? Let’s say someone training for football maybe as an example? Or a powerlifter maybe? Not the average guy who just wants to improve his physique…
For example…I remember when I first started training with some of the bigger “beasts” in the gym. There was no way I could keep up with these guys endurance or strength wise at that point. I would eat a box of mac & cheese with 6 eggs as my breakfast then hit the gym. This meal alone is probably close to 2000 cals. I would sometimes eat an entire medium or close to an entire large pizza…
Would this have made me gain more fat? Probably right…
But it also allowed me to train for 2 hours at a time, lifting weights that most people could not lift, especially after the 1st hour. This is not to brag or say I’m the shit. This is to say that, had I not ate those foods, I know that FOR ME PERSONALLY, there is no way I would have been able to have those workouts.
Do you think the means justify the ends, so to speak?
I can’t imagine the guy eating the guidelines you suggested, will make the most progress strength or muscle wise. I mean yes, your body can only build muscle so fast, but what if you’re not able to build that muscle/stregnth based off of those guidelines? As I said, some people struggle to gain strength, let alone weight, even when eating adequately.
I imagine the same person, ating all out (within reason) VS. your earlier general guidelines, after lets say 2-3 years with the same intensity, one diet will lead to a large&strong beast, and one will be still trying to make that progress which could take who knows how long?
[quote]Ironfreak wrote:
Question for you BRICKHEAD…
I agree with your general guidelines for nutrition. However, what do you say to the guy who wants to turn into a beast? Let’s say someone training for football maybe as an example? Or a powerlifter maybe? Not the average guy who just wants to improve his physique…
[/quote]
I get the impression that you’re asking this question regarding powerlifters in the 275 and SHW category and linemen because I’m sure you know that powerlifters, Olympic lifters, and football players in other positions and weight classes must pay attention to bodyweight if they want to perform best in their position or weight class.
In the case of SHW powerlifters and linemen, the same approach can be taken from a baseline (which can be seen or determined from what they’re doing currently) and making adjustments from there, and if the adjustment is one that needs to lead to weight gain, then obviously calories are bumped up.
[quote]
For example…I remember when I first started training with some of the bigger “beasts” in the gym. There was no way I could keep up with these guys endurance or strength wise at that point. I would eat a box of mac & cheese with 6 eggs as my breakfast then hit the gym. This meal alone is probably close to 2000 cals. I would sometimes eat an entire medium or close to an entire large pizza…
Would this have made me gain more fat? Probably right… [/quote]
Any time there is an enormous caloric surplus, there will most likely be fat gain provided the person is eating more than they burn (of course with muscle gain in some cases.
[quote]
But it also allowed me to train for 2 hours at a time, lifting weights that most people could not lift, especially after the 1st hour. This is not to brag or say I’m the shit. This is to say that, had I not ate those foods, I know that FOR ME PERSONALLY, there is no way I would have been able to have those workouts.
Do you think the means justify the ends, so to speak? [/quote]
You’re speaking as if you couldn’t meet your energy requirements with other foods. You met them with the foods you chose, which I’m assuming you’re classifying as dirty foods. Granted it’s difficult to eat a shit ton of calories with clean foods, so if someone resorts to eating “dirty” to eat 8,000+ calories per day provided they need it for a goal, then I understand.
So of course the end justifies the means! I don’t expect Donnie Thompson to compete as a superheavyweight (or any of the other SHW monsters) by maintaining some 10,000 calorie diet with chicken and rice and egg whites.
Yes, you might have gone too far with your intake but it did some good for you. However, you might have lasted through those grueling workouts with a more tamed, calculated approach.
I’m NOT knocking more liberal approaches or someone doing whatt they must to succeed in some physical endeavors.
Throughout this thread, I have been generally speaking of BASELINE dieting. If strength and size aren’t occurring, then a change needs to take place or what’s going wrong needs to be looked at!
[quote]
I imagine the same person, ating all out (within reason) VS. your earlier general guidelines, after lets say 2-3 years with the same intensity, one diet will lead to a large&strong beast, and one will be still trying to make that progress which could take who knows how long?
Looking for your honest opinion here. [/quote]
What do you mean “eating all out”? I ASSUME you refer to “all out eating” as someone indiscriminately eating relatively large amounts of food without regard for tracking what’s going on with the added POSITIVE side benefit of getting much stronger and packing on muscle. Of course this is one way to go about it, and if that’s what you or someone else likes, then go for it! There’s nothing “wrong” with it.
However, to assume that progress can’t be made efficiently in two or three years with someone WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY’RE DOING in regards to tracking and analyzing is unlikely is off I believe. This is NOT to say that someone doing the “all out” approach doesn’t know what they’re doing because in some cases they do, but they choose not to take a more calculated approach, for whatever reason.
There are even writers on this site, like Dave Barr and Dr. Lonnie Lowery who don’t prefer a slower, more tightly calculated bulk. And I myself consider tracking, calculating, and food measuring and preparing and packing as ENORMOUS pains in the ass and don’t even think it’s necessary after someone who has educated themselves on food and nutrition provided they just want a healthy lifestyle and not compete, as well as with full-housers and permabulkers. (I’m not sure where people got that I’m somehow against full-housers and permabulkers.)
In closing: I see exactly what you’re saying because your post is very understandable and reasonable. And I’m NOT the world’s foremost expert on this. I’m just talking about how I see it, and I certainly have no aim to quarrel with you because you seem like a nice guy.
[quote]
BrickHead
In closing: I see exactly what you’re saying because your post is very understandable and reasonable. And I’m NOT the world’s foremost expert on this. I’m just talking about how I see it, and I certainly have no aim to quarrel with you because you seem like a nice guy. [/quote]
It’s not a quarrel, I’m just trying to pick your brain here, as now that I am bigger, I’m trying to make these adjustments, as I can no longer eat the way I once did. I am now at a stage where I’m trying the slower and leaner approach, due to my current bodyfat.
I guess what I was trying to say was, using the same person as an example, as opposed to SHW or what not. I would imagine that say for example 3500 cals (obv no way to know this as fact but as a guideline) was enough to get a person to grow and build muscle at an optimal rate without too much fat gain. Now if that person would increase their cals to lets say 4500 or 5000? Lets say the majority of these cals are before and after their workout. If they are now able to lift for 2 hours as opposed to 1.5 hours with heavier weights?
As a dietician, do you think said person would be better off or worse? Strength wise? Physique wise? I would imagine it would depend maybe on the intensity of the workout? Just looking for your thoughts on this example. This is pretty much how I am. The more I eat, I feel the better my workouts, and the more I burn, etc. Where as the opposite is also true, less I eat, less I lift (intensity and duration)etc. etc.
Not referring to classroom study in this context of a noob wannabe weight trainer who wants to go from wannabe to doer.
The guy didn’t do a damn thing yet and wants your help from day one. [/quote]
Then like I told you, what he is eating now and how he is training now are all factors that matter OUTSIDE of factors like age and weight.
Get in the gym. That would be it. From there, discussions about what they are doing and what can be changed gradually begin.
No one should be handed some list of what to eat without taking what they have been doing into consideration and what that has already done for them physically.
If some guy is literally telling me he tracks his calories and he eats well above average to maintain his weight, eats mostly fast food but can still see his abs, OBVIOUSLY he should not approach his eating like someone who literally is already fat from eating normally like a sedentary person.
Not referring to classroom study in this context of a noob wannabe weight trainer who wants to go from wannabe to doer.
The guy didn’t do a damn thing yet and wants your help from day one. [/quote]
Then like I told you, what he is eating now and how he is training now are all factors that matter OUTSIDE of factors like age and weight.
Get in the gym. That would be it. From there, discussions about what they are doing and what can be changed gradually begin.
No one should be handed some list of what to eat without taking what they have been doing into consideration and what that has already done for them physically.
If some guy is literally telling me he tracks his calories and he eats well above average to maintain his weight, eats mostly fast food but can still see his abs, OBVIOUSLY he should not approach his eating like someone who literally is already fat from eating normally like a sedentary person.[/quote]
X, what’s your sample five day template for a noob you suggest elsewhere? General template, not a program for a specific individual.
My template would be full body, something along the lines of Bill Starr’s 5 x 5, Bryan Haycock’s HST, or just a generalized HIT- or ACSM-style full body program with one or two sets per bodypart with basic exercises.
How about we take this into account: a guy who has no idea what the hell he’s doing with nutrition. He eats what’s available or whatever is made by his mom or woman or at school.
Here’s his day:
Breakfast:
NOTHING!
or
a bowl of low quality cereal with milk or a bagel and coffee from somewhere, sometimes with eggs
Lunch
Whatever’s at school
Dinner
Whatever mom makes (usually something decent with protein, a starch, and a salad and veggies
Snacks
Garbage: potato chips, pretzels, Fig Newtons, candies
OCCASIONALLY fruits or a decent sandwich
Oftentimes meals are missed and the guy is wondering why he’s lacking energy frequently.
You think this guy shouldn’t be a given a goddamn list of what foods or eating patterns or what sensible bodybuilding meals look like?!
You’re telling me he should WAIT (for how long I ask) til after weeks or months in the gym and then make changes. Aren’t you someone who’s concerned about “wasting time” and possibly “robbing oneself of gains”?!
Meanwhile, if the guy knows what to do, he could make incredible noob gains in 3 to 6 months if his nutrition is at least “OK”, not even perfect.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
What would you suggest for a natty recreational lifter that has reached a plateu and is looking for a few pointers so shave some strokes of his game? Who should they look toward for diet and training advice?[/quote]
Coaches and trainers who work with the athletes and professionals (in whatever your area of training) tend to offer the most useful information when a trainee thinks about how to effectively incorporate the advice into a program. These individuals are more accessible than they were twenty years ago, so for information-seeking they’re top tier in my opinion.
Kai Greene’s bodybuilding routine may be interesting to look at, but I’d pay closer attention to anything said/written by Charles Glass. A person wanting to improve their strength and athleticism can do worse than to look at coaches like DeFranco, Tate, and Wendler.
Advice from bodybuilders and professional athletes (who don’t always design their own programs) can also be valuable because like with the first group, a trainee has to think about how to use the information. Though when it comes to their routines, (being personal, will address that athlete’s particular needs) I think a person has to have enough knowledge and experience under their belts to pick out specific elements.
This way they can re-work what is presented into a personal program. This doesn’t always happen, I’ve seen people try to use a weekly split for a pro bodybuilder as-is.
X, what’s your sample five day template for a noob you suggest elsewhere? General template, not a program for a specific individual. [/quote]
You can look in that “prof x request” thread I posted earlier for that info.
[quote]
Oftentimes meals are missed and the guy is wondering why he’s lacking energy frequently.
You think this guy shouldn’t be a given a goddamn list of what foods or eating patterns or what sensible bodybuilding meals look like?!
Seriously, are you kidding me?![/quote]
He should have a conversation. He should be asked what his views of food even are now and from there gradual changes can be made. I have found that people who are told they need a complete overhaul before they ever even start a program or learn how important consistency is are most likely to quit early.
This is about learning to make this a LIFE STYLE…and you don’t do that overnight.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
You’re telling me he should WAIT (for how long I ask) til after weeks or months in the gym and then make changes. Aren’t you someone who’s concerned about “wasting time” and possibly “robbing oneself of gains”?!
[/quote]
This is individualized. No one should take months to understand basic info. The first time I even speak to a trainer it is to understand what they THINK they know now. You can’t change what you don’t even understand completely.
You seem to have a problem with this. This is logical and concise. You don’t create new habits overnight. It has to be a part of what that person truly desires…and you won’t learn that by simply throwing a template at them.
It’s not a quarrel, I’m just trying to pick your brain here, as now that I am bigger, I’m trying to make these adjustments, as I can no longer eat the way I once did. I am now at a stage where I’m trying the slower and leaner approach, due to my current bodyfat. [/quote]
I know it’s not a quarrel. I just wanted to put that out there because lately there’s been a trend of incoherency going on here lately (I could be wrong though).
[quote]
I guess what I was trying to say was, using the same person as an example, as opposed to SHW or what not. I would imagine that say for example 3500 cals (obv no way to know this as fact but as a guideline) was enough to get a person to grow and build muscle at an optimal rate without too much fat gain. Now if that person would increase their cals to lets say 4500 or 5000? [/quote]
You said 3,500 is optimal. Why would someone increase or decrease what’s optimal?
[quote]
Lets say the majority of these cals are before and after their workout. If they are now able to lift for 2 hours as opposed to 1.5 hours with heavier weights? [/quote]
Nutrient timing is helpful and perhaps has lead to people building muscle faster than a less calculated approach, but there aren’t going to be miraculous gains over the usual 1 to 2 pounds of muscle per month gain for naturals in the first three years (after which gains are far slower and in some cases, seemingly halted).
And the adequate nutrition necessary to withstand workouts, build mass, and recover is necessary of course, but like above, no miracles are going to happen, nor is there going to be some supraphysiological change because someone increased calories over what’s optimal.
Now, if it takes more calories to do more activity than currently, then an increase needs to be made.
And generally speaking (not talking about contest prep), it’s best to keep activity high and eat as much as possible without getting fat.
As I said, generally speaking, the more one can do while recovering (which of course requires the appropriate nutrition, which can be a relatively high caloric amount), the better off they are in physique and strength. This is why people who focus ONLY on nutrition yet still want to remain sedentary have poor body composition (smaller, but weaker and fatter).
And again, strength can be increased in some lifts from getting bigger (regardless of body composition).
Right. See John Berardi’s G Flux articles. They go in line with your thinking.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
why are all these debates about the noobs?
if a noob drank protein shakes, did pushups, and went for a walk after dinner, he’d get bigger stronger leaner. yayyyyy!!!
let’s talk about what the best of the best consistently do…[/quote]
This is true. Maybe we should talk about intermediate guys 2-4 years in. [/quote]
Good point.
How are guys like that doing?
Any pics so we can discuss?[/quote]
My biggest hurdle became consistency an issue I think many intermediate lifters face. From 18-22, while in the military, I went from 135 to 170, back down to 153, and then back up to about 180. I had a ton of time and lifted from 11:00 - 13:00 5 days a week. When I got out and reality hit my training suffered. Began working at a desk, half hour lunch, night classes. Ended up at about 225 and not a good 225. All my lifts stalled and so did any progress. It really wasn’t until recently (26 now) that I’ve re-prioritized training. I invested in a home gym (no excuse anymore) and am starting to see some good progress. I’m now down to about 208 and have hit several PRs this month including 402 X 1 deadlift last Tuesday.
This is individualized. No one should take months to understand basic info. [/quote]
Of course nutrition should be individualized. But GENERAL guidelines are appropriate for 99% of untrained, ignorant, malnourished noobs.
[quote]
The first time I even speak to a trainer it is to understand what they THINK they know now. You can’t change what you don’t even understand completely. [/quote]
Right. Hence a questionnaire, which all exercise and nutrition pros provide to clients. It’s also why they educate clients. I guess we’re in agreement on this one.
[quote]
You seem to have a problem with this. This is logical and concise. [/quote]
Not sure how I implied I have a problem with much of this considering I mentioned lifestyle factors, education level, resources, logic and judgment in several posts here.
[quote]
You don’t create new habits overnight. It has to be a part of what that person truly desires…and you won’t learn that by simply throwing a template at them.[/quote]
This is why a professional doesn’t just throw a template at them and call it a day, just like they don’t tell someone “lift big” and “eat more” and call it a day. See references to education elsewhere in this and other posts.
He should have a conversation. He should be asked what his views of food even are now and from there gradual changes can be made. [/quote]
Now we’re talking!
[quote]
I have found that people who are told they need a complete overhaul before they ever even start a program or learn how important consistency is are most likely to quit early. [/quote]
For many this is the case. I see we agree on something.
[quote]
This is about learning to make this a LIFE STYLE…and you don’t do that overnight.[/quote]
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
why are all these debates about the noobs?
if a noob drank protein shakes, did pushups, and went for a walk after dinner, he’d get bigger stronger leaner. yayyyyy!!!
let’s talk about what the best of the best consistently do…[/quote]
This is true. Maybe we should talk about intermediate guys 2-4 years in. [/quote]
Good point.
How are guys like that doing?
Any pics so we can discuss?[/quote]
My biggest hurdle became consistency an issue I think many intermediate lifters face. From 18-22, while in the military, I went from 135 to 170, back down to 153, and then back up to about 180. I had a ton of time and lifted from 11:00 - 13:00 5 days a week. When I got out and reality hit my training suffered. Began working at a desk, half hour lunch, night classes. Ended up at about 225 and not a good 225. All my lifts stalled and so did any progress. It really wasn’t until recently (26 now) that I’ve re-prioritized training. I invested in a home gym (no excuse anymore) and am starting to see some good progress. I’m now down to about 208 and have hit several PRs this month including 402 X 1 deadlift last Tuesday.
Dont take this the wrong way, but you look much worse now and at that level of bodyfat. There is no reason for you to be bulking/mass phase etc. You should focus on getting healthy, learning how to lift and more importantly learning proper nutrition habbits.
So to answer the original thread and use you as an example, No. People should not focus on gaining size/strength at all cost. They should learn the fundamentals of nutrition and lifting and apply it.
Back to the original question :
WTF is the point of ‘rushing to get as big as possible’ since you can ‘only put on muscle your first X years’. Who wants to not look at the mirror and smile, or feel uncomfortable with their shirt off at the beach all through their 20’s and 30’s so they can be a ‘beast’ later in life in their twighlight years?
Inb4 I want to walk through the door way sideways.