Yeah, even some of the ones recently purchased are starting to bunch at the waist. in pants, my waist is now smaller then my inseam.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Consistency is a given for anyone above average. I would prefer to discuss what seperates the great from above average. As in what the world class powerlifter/strongman/bodybuilder (gasp!) does that the above average gym rat doesn’t. Anyone can go to the gym consistently and seperate themselves from fat people that eat cookies all day. [/quote]
But that’s not what this forum is about. It’s about the average lifter growing as a lifter. How can we really discuss this anyway?
“Well I read Ronnie does this in MenÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s Health so that must be the secret,” do yu see what I’m saying? It’s all here say unless the pros or elite are posting themselves. Which is they are it likely would be in their respective forum. For example Stu, a well above average possibly elite bodybuilder (I don’t know much about the sport), posts most of his advice in his BB forum threads. That makes sense, so if you want to see what he is doing to set himself apart that’s where the discussion will be.
Most of us are and will always be average/slightly above average. So discussing how the pros separate themselves is not really helpful when half the people here can’t properly deadlift 300 pounds.
[/quote]
Discussing what makes the best the best can only help the average lifter get better imo. Will it make them a pro? Hell no. Doesn’t matter. A recreational golfer that wants nothing more than improve better his game a bit would look at what pro golfers do and emulate that. Why would recreational lifters be any different? [/quote]
Because golfers don’t use AAS to reach 6 under par.
I agree with you in some respects. You want to emulate the best in life, but we all know the 5X5 program the “pro” does couple with the N.O Explode he swears by is not the full story.
[/quote]
Read my post above: nattys emulate natty pro’s/raw drug tested elite PLers etc. Use common sense.[/quote]
Common sense will only take you so far. How does commons sense even apply to weight lifting? If I only used common sense I wouldn’t have ever picked a weight up, yet here I am. An outside influence is almost always the reason we do what we do. Does commons sense teach proper deadlift form?
As far as natty emulating natty, these guys might not be on AAS, but they are on every legal supp available, have top tier coaching, and top tier nutritional advice. So simply following a natty’s program is not the whole picture. That is commons sense.
Also these natty guess are sponsored by all sorts of companies. So natty guy A uses N.O. Explode commons sense says that will get me where I want to go right? [/quote]
Do you not think that incorporating things that natty pro’s (bbers, elite Plers, etc) do diet and training wise can help a recreational lifter improve? That’s all i’m saying. If one thinks N.O. xplode and “top tier supplements” is the difference maker than no, they are not using common sense.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
If one thinks N.O. xplode and “top tier supplements” is the difference maker than no, they are not using common sense.
[/quote]
Just like someone who follows the strategy of a top pro who uses a lot of steroids and GH yet isn’t doing the same. They are also not using common sense.
Simply put, one of the main reasons many pros today do NOT do like the guy in that video we have been discussing and bulk up like they used to (obviously no one is talkiing about getting as fat as he did)…is because the drugs used allow you to remain very lean while gaining muscle now.
kai greene isn’t doing what Sergio Oliva was as far as drug use.
[quote]Ironfreak wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Ironfreak wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Wow…so the same posters literally troll; this thread to death…and they make it out like I made them do it?
How is it the other board members here are not tired of this shit?[/quote]
But X, I’m gonna call you out here. You can simply choose to ignore them, instead of responding to every single post.
I actually do gain information from these “shitstorm” threads, between people like Stu, Bricknyce, and Prof, among others…
BUT ITS SUCH A DRAG to read between the bullshit.
You need to simply ignore these people you feel are purposely trying to shit on you.
(not taking sides, just speaking the truth, it needs to stop on both sides)[/quote]
Agreed. I will try to do that…but I also know that if I simply did not respond, this thread wold be filled with NO useful content right now and a bunch of guys acting like everything I write is nonsense.
Now, people can see for themselves.
[/quote]
Wrong. You respond to the useful posts, to further the conversation, which you are. The bullshit posts, which you also respond to, just goes back and forth, on both sides, and clogs up the thread.
[/quote]
You are right. I respond to many posts I should probably ignore. I’m not perfect and never claimed to be.
What I also see is a good thread that had potential get ruined by the same group of people.
Without fighting that to some degree, there would be no vids posted here and we wouldn’t be following bulk and cut like we are now.
Some things like what you stand for do need to be fought for at times.
I agree though, I will try to reduce adding to it.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Do you not think that incorporating things that natty pro’s (bbers, elite Plers, etc) do diet and training wise can help a recreational lifter improve? That’s all i’m saying. If one thinks N.O. xplode and “top tier supplements” is the difference maker than no, they are not using common sense.
[/quote]
Yes, like I said I agree with you to an extent. I think it’s one of those situation where you have to take what they say with a grain of salt. Especially if people like us are discussing their training/diet and they are not here to correct any mistakes/misunderstandings. You don’t have to go any futher than CT’s forum. In a number of threads he has to correct posters on what they think is stance on a subject is.
It’s about the delivery of the message. That’s the angle I’m playing at.
Editted: I suppose the answer is actually yes.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
If one thinks N.O. xplode and “top tier supplements” is the difference maker than no, they are not using common sense.
[/quote]
Just like someone who follows the strategy of a top pro who uses a lot of steroids and GH yet isn’t doing the same. They are also not using common sense.
Simply put, one of the main reasons many pros today do NOT do like the guy in that video we have been discussing and bulk up like they used to (obviously no one is talkiing about getting as fat as he did)…is because the drugs used allow you to remain very lean while gaining muscle now.
kai greene isn’t doing what Sergio Oliva was as far as drug use.[/quote]
What would you suggest for a natty recreational lifter that has reached a plateu and is looking for a few pointers so shave some strokes of his game? Who should they look toward for diet and training advice?
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
If one thinks N.O. xplode and “top tier supplements” is the difference maker than no, they are not using common sense.
[/quote]
Just like someone who follows the strategy of a top pro who uses a lot of steroids and GH yet isn’t doing the same. They are also not using common sense.
Simply put, one of the main reasons many pros today do NOT do like the guy in that video we have been discussing and bulk up like they used to (obviously no one is talkiing about getting as fat as he did)…is because the drugs used allow you to remain very lean while gaining muscle now.
kai greene isn’t doing what Sergio Oliva was as far as drug use.[/quote]
What would you suggest for a natty recreational lifter that has reached a plateu and is looking for a few pointers so shave some strokes of his game? Who should they look toward for diet and training advice?[/quote]
The best choice would be a pro, IF you have access to them, not a magazine clipping. Otherwise I’d say other guys that are slightly better than you, or have had similar issue and overcome.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
If one thinks N.O. xplode and “top tier supplements” is the difference maker than no, they are not using common sense.
[/quote]
Just like someone who follows the strategy of a top pro who uses a lot of steroids and GH yet isn’t doing the same. They are also not using common sense.
Simply put, one of the main reasons many pros today do NOT do like the guy in that video we have been discussing and bulk up like they used to (obviously no one is talkiing about getting as fat as he did)…is because the drugs used allow you to remain very lean while gaining muscle now.
kai greene isn’t doing what Sergio Oliva was as far as drug use.[/quote]
What would you suggest for a natty recreational lifter that has reached a plateu and is looking for a few pointers so shave some strokes of his game? Who should they look toward for diet and training advice?[/quote]
Good question.
^ in that scenario, pointers, are a different ball game. Programming and diet are completely different.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
^ in that scenario, pointers, are a different ball game. Programming and diet are completely different.[/quote]
Could pointers not include programming and diet tips and suggestions?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Want me to keep going?[/quote]
You can post all you wish. Until you prove he was in CONTEST SHAPE in that video, you have no point.[/quote]
YOU are the only one bringing up contest shape. NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER SAID STAY IN CONTEST SHAPE YEAR ROUND! The point isnt whether he’s in contest shape or 8-9% or whatever bodyfat. I don’t even understand what your argueing anymore, CT is leaner than most everyone, you want to look like that you said. Yet your hating on the “get lean” people.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
-
I subscribe to his pages, and have heard most if not all of his interviews.
-
You said the optimum way to grow is to put on weight, hopefully good, which puts you in the best state to grow…and not most natty pros are not bulking…they are growing lean.
-
You said he was an example of how you “wanted to look” well…he is NOT full house, he is single digit bodyfat…not 20%
Just because you gain weight, does not mean you are growing optimum. [/quote]
My goal is not “full house”.
How would you know my exact goal without asking me? My goals change but yes, overall, looking like that would be desirable.
the point again is you have no clue how lean he is in that VIDEO aside from what you can see in his arms.
I am leaner and fatter throughout the year. Taking ONE picture at any one time will not tell you this.
[/quote]
“My goal is to make people move out of the way when I arrive”
“Full house guys look more impressive and many would agree here”
You are basically saying that you want to look as impressive as you can, then that you want to be lean all the while saying guys with more “extra” fat are more impressive
… not sure I follow
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Not to rain on your parade too much, but those average numbers in my experience for most young (late teens-early 20’s) guys in their first year or 2 of training regardless of whether they gained 30+ (you didn’t specify whether or not you were still dieting) lbs of fat to go with it or not.
[/quote]
I always love reading posts like this. These numbers are not average. They are not elite, but average, I don’t think so. Most 18-22 year olds are deadlifting in the 3’s, maybe squating in the 3’s, and likely benching in the mid 2’s. Just because in your experience 5/4/3 D/S/B is average doesn’t actually make it average.
What is even the point of your post, to point out how much better the average lifter is than the guy you addressed? [/quote]
Agreed! I was disappointed to see this from a member I generally repsect.
If you train at a college gym where the athletes train maybe…but not average in commercial gyms, not average in most private gyms. [/quote]
Agreed. I am not here to shit on anyone else’s progress…but it sure seems that is what most of these other people are here for.
I created this thread to discuss the topic I presented.
if you don’t like that topic or think it has been discussed too much, why would you post here just to say that?
No, I am not going to debate with 5-10 people all at the same time just because some of you seem to ONLY try to literally shit on anything I post lately.
Some of you are becoming straight up assholes shitting on other people’s progress.
That is not what I am here for.
To the people who thanked me, you are welcome. Post more and help change these boards from this current tripe.[/quote]
Aren’t you the guy who said once that if you werent able to bench 405 as a natural within 3 or so years of training, you weren’t cut out for lifting weights?
My point was that his progress, while good, doesn’t prove the superiority of any method because its totally within the realm of possibility for kids his age with a few years of dedicated training. FFS, I even stated as much that I wasn’t shitting on his progress. I outright said it in the first sentence of my post.
We’re talking about a slightly less than 1.5x bw bench, less than 2x bw squat, and 2.5x bw deadlift.
Those numbers are nowhere near extraordinary enough to add an additional 15% of your bodyweight in fat to achieve.
[/quote]
As a guy who “clearly isn’t cut out for this” I too would like the 405 bench comment addressed
I googled “top pro bodybuilder routine” and this is what came up: \
Arnold Schwarzenegger Workout
Bodybuilding Training Routine
Mon, Wed, Fri
Chest:
Bench press 5 x 6-10
Flat bench flyes 5 x 6-10
Incline bench press 6 x 6-10
Cable crossovers 6 x 10-12
Dips (body weight) 5 x failure
Dumbell pullovers 5 x 10-12.
Back:
Wide-grip chins (to front) 6 x failure
T-bar rows 5 x 6-10
Seated pulley rows 6 x 6-10
One-arm dumbell rows 5 x 6-10
Straight-leg deadlifts 6 x 15
Legs:
Squats 6 x 8-12
Leg press 6 x 8-12
Leg extensions 6 x 12-15
Leg curls 6 x 10-12
Barbell lunges 5 x 15
Calves:
Standing calf raises 10 x 10
Seated calf raises 8 x 15
Oneplegged calf raises (holding dumbells) 6x12
Forearms:
Wrist curls (forearms on knees) - 4 sets, 10 reps
Reverse barbell curls - 4 sets, 8 reps
Wright roller machine - to failure
Abs:
½ hour of a variety of nonspecific abdominal exercises, done virtually nonstop.
Tues, Thurs, Sat
Biceps:
Barbell curls 6 x 6-10
Seated dumbell curls 6 x 6-10
Dumbell concentration curls 6 x 6-10
Triceps:
Close-grip bench presses 6 x 6-10
Pushdowns 6 x 6-10
French press (barbell) 6 x 6-10
One-arm triceps extensions (dumbell) 6 x 6-10
Shoulders:
Seated barbell presses 6 x 6-10
Lateral raises (standing) 6 x 6-10
Rear-delt lateral raises 5 x 6-10
Cable lateral raises 5 x 10-12
Calves , Forearms & Abs:
Same as Monday, Wednesday, Friday workout
Notice how there is no guidance, no talk of progress, and really there’s no proof Arnold even followed this routine. Even if he did, we don’t know what shape he was in at the time nor do we know what drugs he was on or where his base was.
My point is, while the workout itself may be sounds, there is no way someone new to training will know that. That new tranee has to rely on the name of the guy presenting the workout (in this case we don’t even know if it’s Arnold himself).
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
^ in that scenario, pointers, are a different ball game. Programming and diet are completely different.[/quote]
Could pointers not include programming and diet tips and suggestions?[/quote]
They could, but there is a differnce between a deadlift pointers like chest up vs. do X program of 6-8 exercises using a 5X5 method. So and so bodybuidler does that and he’s jacked!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, why would people ignore that this guy did bulk up and now is walking around impressing the shit out of people with his progress?
[/quote]
Maybe because he said himself that it was totally unhealthy, almost killed him and he now wishes that he had never done it?[/quote]
His extreme body weight and his food choices and his drug choices led to his health concerns. I also just wrote that I would’t even tell someone to get as fat as I did in the past…so what are you even arguing about?[/quote]
You did not know about the guy 3hours ago and now you personally know about his drug choices?
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
If one thinks N.O. xplode and “top tier supplements” is the difference maker than no, they are not using common sense.
[/quote]
Just like someone who follows the strategy of a top pro who uses a lot of steroids and GH yet isn’t doing the same. They are also not using common sense.
Simply put, one of the main reasons many pros today do NOT do like the guy in that video we have been discussing and bulk up like they used to (obviously no one is talkiing about getting as fat as he did)…is because the drugs used allow you to remain very lean while gaining muscle now.
kai greene isn’t doing what Sergio Oliva was as far as drug use.[/quote]
What would you suggest for a natty recreational lifter that has reached a plateu and is looking for a few pointers so shave some strokes of his game? Who should they look toward for diet and training advice?[/quote]
Other guys who looks the way they want to look or reached goals along that short term goal pathway leading to their ultimate goal.
I want to look like the guy in that vid. The way to look like that would probably NOT be to “try to stay at 8-12% body fat” the whole way there since he did not make most of his progress that way.
That does NOT mean do EXACTLY what they did because the extremes they reached may not be ideal to the individual, but the basic concept remains the same.
I would not look like I do now if I listened to guys who did not follow similar goal pathways.
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Not to rain on your parade too much, but those average numbers in my experience for most young (late teens-early 20’s) guys in their first year or 2 of training regardless of whether they gained 30+ (you didn’t specify whether or not you were still dieting) lbs of fat to go with it or not.
[/quote]
I always love reading posts like this. These numbers are not average. They are not elite, but average, I don’t think so. Most 18-22 year olds are deadlifting in the 3’s, maybe squating in the 3’s, and likely benching in the mid 2’s. Just because in your experience 5/4/3 D/S/B is average doesn’t actually make it average.
What is even the point of your post, to point out how much better the average lifter is than the guy you addressed? [/quote]
Agreed! I was disappointed to see this from a member I generally repsect.
If you train at a college gym where the athletes train maybe…but not average in commercial gyms, not average in most private gyms. [/quote]
Agreed. I am not here to shit on anyone else’s progress…but it sure seems that is what most of these other people are here for.
I created this thread to discuss the topic I presented.
if you don’t like that topic or think it has been discussed too much, why would you post here just to say that?
No, I am not going to debate with 5-10 people all at the same time just because some of you seem to ONLY try to literally shit on anything I post lately.
Some of you are becoming straight up assholes shitting on other people’s progress.
That is not what I am here for.
To the people who thanked me, you are welcome. Post more and help change these boards from this current tripe.[/quote]
Aren’t you the guy who said once that if you werent able to bench 405 as a natural within 3 or so years of training, you weren’t cut out for lifting weights?
My point was that his progress, while good, doesn’t prove the superiority of any method because its totally within the realm of possibility for kids his age with a few years of dedicated training. FFS, I even stated as much that I wasn’t shitting on his progress. I outright said it in the first sentence of my post.
We’re talking about a slightly less than 1.5x bw bench, less than 2x bw squat, and 2.5x bw deadlift.
Those numbers are nowhere near extraordinary enough to add an additional 15% of your bodyweight in fat to achieve.
[/quote]
As a guy who “clearly isn’t cut out for this” I too would like the 405 bench comment addressed
[/quote]
I’m not defensing X, only pointing out he said he didn’t make the comment several pages back.
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Not to rain on your parade too much, but those average numbers in my experience for most young (late teens-early 20’s) guys in their first year or 2 of training regardless of whether they gained 30+ (you didn’t specify whether or not you were still dieting) lbs of fat to go with it or not.
[/quote]
I always love reading posts like this. These numbers are not average. They are not elite, but average, I don’t think so. Most 18-22 year olds are deadlifting in the 3’s, maybe squating in the 3’s, and likely benching in the mid 2’s. Just because in your experience 5/4/3 D/S/B is average doesn’t actually make it average.
What is even the point of your post, to point out how much better the average lifter is than the guy you addressed? [/quote]
Agreed! I was disappointed to see this from a member I generally repsect.
If you train at a college gym where the athletes train maybe…but not average in commercial gyms, not average in most private gyms. [/quote]
Agreed. I am not here to shit on anyone else’s progress…but it sure seems that is what most of these other people are here for.
I created this thread to discuss the topic I presented.
if you don’t like that topic or think it has been discussed too much, why would you post here just to say that?
No, I am not going to debate with 5-10 people all at the same time just because some of you seem to ONLY try to literally shit on anything I post lately.
Some of you are becoming straight up assholes shitting on other people’s progress.
That is not what I am here for.
To the people who thanked me, you are welcome. Post more and help change these boards from this current tripe.[/quote]
Aren’t you the guy who said once that if you werent able to bench 405 as a natural within 3 or so years of training, you weren’t cut out for lifting weights?
My point was that his progress, while good, doesn’t prove the superiority of any method because its totally within the realm of possibility for kids his age with a few years of dedicated training. FFS, I even stated as much that I wasn’t shitting on his progress. I outright said it in the first sentence of my post.
We’re talking about a slightly less than 1.5x bw bench, less than 2x bw squat, and 2.5x bw deadlift.
Those numbers are nowhere near extraordinary enough to add an additional 15% of your bodyweight in fat to achieve.
[/quote]
As a guy who “clearly isn’t cut out for this” I too would like the 405 bench comment addressed
[/quote]
Meh,
I did some searching and Prof X basically said that if you want to bench 405 you need to have drive and passion. If you don’t have either of those things you might as well give up (paraphrased). I can’t find any reference to him saying you should flat out give up. I’m not a huge Prof X supporter but I do appreciate the sentiment of passion and drive. No used starting something if you aren’t gonna give it a fair go.
I think the lean vs full shithouse thing is a matter of opinion though I do see plenty of people on these forums wishing that they would have skipped the “bulk” and gained slowly. What is that if not wisdom and experience from those who have achieved your goals?
I like the lean look because my fiancee likes the lean look and I find it more comfortable. Nuff said.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’m not defensing X, only pointing out he said he didn’t make the comment several pages back. [/quote]
Exactly.